Gunman Attack Jewish Seminary

[DogOnPorch]

al-Reuters as the old joke goes.

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GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli forces killed 60 people in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, the bloodiest day for Palestinians since an uprising against Israeli occupation began in 2000.

[buffycat]

Well, now I have some time and will make my response to this certainly one-sided thread!

First, I'll state, unequivocably that I condem the massacre as I would any other 'school' shooting. My thoughts go out to all those affected.

Secondly, I would however, like to point out the amazing double standard which was applied in the media coverage of this tragedy. While just last week over 100 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip (note there were also over 26 killings in the West Bank), this attack on the Yeshiva (like a seminary) has garnered non-stop attention on ALL the major news outlets. False reports on who was really behind this have led the way! Knee-jerk responses of 'Hamas' did it, were the order of the day - until lo and behold - we find that they DID NOT do it... okay. Rewind, start over: The killer Hated ALL Jews, The killer speaks for ALL Palestinians - over and over adinfinitum! Every pro-Israel talking head was interviewed! "They hate us because we are Jewish", the mantra goes - on and on. No mention that who ever did this - might, just might have been a little ticked off with the way he's been treated for years, or for that matter no mention that this MAY have been a lone nutbar, acting solely on his own accord. (which seems to be the case).

No, never mind the context in which these things happen, deplorable as it is. Much easier to simply put the blame on and entire group and begin the next siege and incursion. Oddly, this attack plays into the hands of the aggressors in the Likud/Military controlled Israeli Admin - it gives them yet another excuse to continue to inflict collective punishment on and entire population. IOW - thanks you crazed gunman - you've given the warhawks carte blanche to go murder more innocent civilians. How ironic, that the benefactor of this disgusting crime is Israel herself.

Which also brings up the odd fact of how convenient the timing of this tragedy is. With the eyes of the world focused on the events in the Gaza Strip, Israel's image tarnished and blackened by the killings of so many children in such a short time, this attack has now set Israel back into the 'victim' seat. The media cries: Poor Israel! Look at these terrorists - as if ALL Palestinians are just like this sick person.

Ahhh well - par for the course. Double standards reign and in the end the real tragedy - the saddest part of all - is that few will see the anguish of people who have lost loved ones as simply that. Instead of these people deaths being used to further a move towards some kind of reconciliation - they will no doubt be used as a reason to intensify violence, increase the death toll and further the state of hate and war. This of course will be done by both sides - but in this disproportionate conflict the greatest losers will be ordinary Palestinians and ordinary peaceloving Israelis - who will see the divide widen and the possibility of some kind of rational settlement become even more slim.

Shame of this sick fellow, Shame on the IDF forces targetting civilians, shame on all the government reps on both sides of this tragedy.

[scribblet]

al-Reuters as the old joke goes.

----------------------------------

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli forces killed 60 people in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, the bloodiest day for Palestinians since an uprising against Israeli occupation began in 2000.

As we've said before:

If Palestine laid down it's arms - there would be peace

If Israel laid down it's arms - there would be genocide

It's a no brainer that the solution to all of this is for the Palestinians to want peace, but they don't, they prefer to build weapons and commit genocide to building and maintaining a peaceful prosperous society.

[Argus]

Israel kills close to 100 civlians in indiscriminate airstrikes - not shocking.

Muslim gunmen open fire killing Jews indiscriminately and Palestinians rejoice - shocking.

So if indiscriminate killing and blatant disregard for human life is the common-denominator, it must be the dancing that determines the shock factor?

Israel does not engage in indiscriminate air strikes. The majority of casualties in their air strikes are - and all but the most extreme Jew-haters admit it - terrorists and terrorist leaders.

And why am I not surprised you would defend even the attack on a seminary? I imagine even an attack on a kindergarten would have you rising to the defense of the gunmen involved and decrying the evils of Jew violence.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

Well, now I have some time and will make my response to this certainly one-sided thread!

First, I'll state, unequivocably that I condem the massacre as I would any other 'school' shooting. My thoughts go out to all those affected.

Secondly, I would however, like to point out the amazing double standard which was applied in the media coverage of this tragedy. While just last week over 100 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip (note there were also over 26 killings in the West Bank), this attack on the Yeshiva (like a seminary) has garnered non-stop attention on ALL the major news outlets.

To equate the deliberate attack and murder of religious students to targeted strikes against terrorists (or at fighters if you insist) is absurd. Most people who have a sense of morality understand the difference. Why is it you don't?

BTW, Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinian people, praised the attack.

[DogOnPorch]

Interesting to see people who don't have two clues to rub together pontificate on how Israel will lose to the Arabs. The lack of military knowledge is balanced by the "learned" statements of those people.

The article was bang on as to why they lose wars. Here's a news flash for those who need it. Weaponry and numbers are useless without proper 3C and logistical support. These are things Arabs just don't understand. Sorry for all of those who would like to see Israel crushed under the Arab sandal, it aint gonna happen folks.

Yup...during the 6 Day War, the Arabs had the latest Soviet T-55s vs old M-4 Super Shermans and similar surplus machines sold to the Israelis...and lost. For those not up on tanks, the M-4 Sherman was the standard Western Allied tank of WW2. The super part came from replacing the old 75mm main gun with a modern long barreled, high velocity weapon.

Argus: BTW, Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinian people, praised the attack.

Hamas even made the claim for the attack at first...then took it back. Thus the knee-jerk response buffy mentions. Israel apparently thought Hezbollah at first...not sure why. Some other news sources say Syria has its hand in it to distract attention away from events in Lebanon. Other sources have top Shia clerics in the region praising the attack. Now several key news sources claim the lone gunman theory. At the gunman's family home...in Jerusalem...all the flags fly...Palestine, Hezbollah and Hamas over the front door. Apparently all the males inside were arrested including the father...then released except for two of the gunman's brothers. So who knows?

Argus: And why am I not surprised you would defend even the attack on a seminary? I imagine even an attack on a kindergarten would have you rising to the defense of the gunmen involved and decrying the evils of Jew violence.

Well, buffy is always a bit extreme...but she's a good barometer as to how the Arabs tend to view the situation. Complete with froth, at times. I always imagine buffy looking a bit like that Yvonne Ridley...or busy clapping and cheering her on from the crowd. Me and my imagination...

:lol:

scrib: If Palestine laid down it's arms - there would be peace

If Israel laid down it's arms - there would be genocide

I tend to agree...though some would say otherwise...you-know-who.

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Little fluffy clouds....little fluffy clouds...what were the skies like when you were young?

---The Orb

Edited March 8, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[socred]

Israel is a rich country and many nations are willing to sell weapons to anyone with the money. It's not even political...just business.

Israel ranks 69th in foreign aid received in 2007 just ahead of "rich" countries like Chad.

Economic aid - recipient 2007

In GDP/person it ranked 36th.

GDP - per capita (PPP) 2007

Just behind the economic "powerhouse" Spain.

It ranked 5th in military spending per GDP.

Military expenditures - percent of GDP 2007

What a wonderful country!

[DogOnPorch]

If we are to use your statistics for judging how rich a country is: Lebanon at 2.2 billion, The West Bank at 1.4 Billion and Gaza also at 1.4 billion should enjoy a great standard of living next to Israel at a mere 240 million dollars...and at $70 million for a brand new F-16...that doesn't really amount to much.

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There are lies, damnable lies and then there are statistics.

---Disraeli

Edited March 8, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Moxie]

Watching the Palestinians dancing and partying and celebrating in the street was repulsive. I can only imagine the hatred these animals have for innocent Jews, to make merry in the street and celebrate the death of innocents. Absolutely sickening, they also have been using children as human shields on roof tops because evil Israel is sending out leaflets to area residents that they will be firing on terrorist targets and so they use children as human shields. Animals, vile animals.

[marina]

. I can only imagine the hatred these animals have for innocent Jews,

those who you called animals have burried more than 100 bodies killed by innocent jews, so it's a normal reaction.

To those who said Israel was attacking terrorists not civilians in Gaza we would say even naive people won't believe that, because Israel knew what it was doing very well. The truth is Israel is not serious about peace, so we see every day the same story of killing and blood.

[Rue]

those who you called animals have burried more than 100 bodies killed by innocent jews, so it's a normal reaction.

To those who said Israel was attacking terrorists not civilians in Gaza we would say even naive people won't believe that, because Israel knew what it was doing very well. The truth is Israel is not serious about peace, so we see every day the same story of killing and blood.

1.Your remark that celebrating murder and terror is normal is necessarily predicated on you believing terrorism and murder is normal;

2, In my world people who feel terror and muder and killing innocent civilians is normal and celebrating such behaviour is normal-are abnormal;

3.Your comment that the IDF deliberately targets civilians is made with no objective basis to establish it as a fact-you have no basis for that conclusion-it is in fact a baseless subjective assumption;

4.Your comment that Israel is not serious about peace is also a baseless subjective assumption;

5.It is absurd for you to presume you know what all Israelis think or feel about peace-when you made the assumotion as you did you in fact assigned a negative characteristic to all Israelis-your intent was to smeer all Israelis as evil warmongers.

I will say to you what I say to Buffy. People like you come out of the woodwork to exploit tragedy and suffering for a political agenda.

Now Buffy you want to talk double standard-read your own words. You stay silent as to the fact that it is Hamas' actions that expose its civilians to death. You always remain silent to that fact.

I will say this but once. It is wrong Palestinian civilians die. Wrong. Its horrible. They die because Hamas chooses them to die. Hamas has the power to put down its missiles and arms and engage in peaceful talks. Instead it chooses terrorism and violence and by so doing holds all its people hostage to its continued decision to engage in terror and violence.

This is about one thing and one thing only-terrorists who choose to use their own people as hostages and place them in harm's way so they can die and their deaths can be manipulated to portray Israel as evil for defenbding itself against terror attacks.

The military expert Buffy and the above genius oh they know. The IDF sits around deliberately planning to kill civilians. They sit there and say-hey today let's kill innocent Palestinian civilians. That makes sense. That will solve our problems. We will kill them.

What an idiot thing to suggest. What makes it even discpicable is that you Buffy are well aware what Hamas' charter is. You are well aware who is targetting civilians deliberately and who does so in response because Hamas puts them in harm's way.

You Buffy continue to be a shrill because you were not there. You do not understand Hamas and never will. You have no idea what they think and feel but you think you do.

The above genius though unlike you, oh he knows. He knows what this is about. This is about not stopping until all of Jordan, Israel and south Lebanon becomes part of a Muslim theocracy run by Hamas. The Israelis are for your consumption Buffy. They make you feel all good about yourself. You have it all figured out. Its black its white. Its Jews its Muslims that's all it is.

It was never about Jews. Its about men-fundamentalists-violent men who despise their fellow Muslims, Palestinians, Jordanians, Christians, Jews, gays, women, Bahaiis, Hindus, Buddists, trade unionists, moderates, on and on it goes.

This is not about Palestinians. It never was. If it was about Palestinians there would be a nation next door to Israel whose people lived peacefully and formed an economic union with Israel,Jordan nd Lebanon.

It was never about that. Ever.

This genius above who wants everyone to blame Israel and ignore Hamas and try justify terror and hatred as normal, you can have him Buffy. If you are so convinced he is the romantic tragedy figure you should intercourse with, oh be my guest.

Can't wait to see the children of your shared vision on Dr. Phil. I would have said Jerry Springer but we all know he is Jewish.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Rue

[buffycat]

1.Your remark ...{snip}

blah blah.. yak yak... blah blah .. copy paste...

blah blah.. yak yak.. buffy ...

yak yak whine cry sceam {snip}

...Jewish.

Thanks for your invaluable insight Rue.

Edited March 8, 2008 by buffycat

[Regulus de Leo]

Watching the Palestinians dancing and partying and celebrating in the street was repulsive.

Yup and they did the same on 9/11. What they are is evident from the kind of shows they show their kids.

The "Jew eating, Dane killing rabbit"

Nahoul, the cat torturing Jew hating bee...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_zrpgl8O1U...feature=related

The Islamist supremacist Farfour 'resistance mouse'.

[scribblet]

Now Buffy you want to talk double standard-read your own words. You stay silent as to the fact that it is Hamas' actions that expose its civilians to death. You always remain silent to that fact.

I will say this but once. It is wrong Palestinian civilians die. Wrong. Its horrible. They die because Hamas chooses them to die. Hamas has the power to put down its missiles and arms and engage in peaceful talks. Instead it chooses terrorism and violence and by so doing holds all its people hostage to its continued decision to engage in terror and violence.

This is about one thing and one thing only-terrorists who choose to use their own people as hostages and place them in harm's way so they can die and their deaths can be manipulated to portray Israel as evil for defenbding itself against terror attacks.

The military expert Buffy and the above genius oh they know. The IDF sits around deliberately planning to kill civilians. They sit there and say-hey today let's kill innocent Palestinian civilians. That makes sense. That will solve our problems. We will kill them.

What an idiot thing to suggest. What makes it even discpicable is that you Buffy are well aware what Hamas' charter is. You are well aware who is targetting civilians deliberately and who does so in response because Hamas puts them in harm's way.

You Buffy continue to be a shrill because you were not there. You do not understand Hamas and never will. You have no idea what they think and feel but you think you do.

The above genius though unlike you, oh he knows. He knows what this is about. This is about not stopping until all of Jordan, Israel and south Lebanon becomes part of a Muslim theocracy run by Hamas. The Israelis are for your consumption Buffy. They make you feel all good about yourself. You have it all figured out. Its black its white. Its Jews its Muslims that's all it is.

It was never about Jews. Its about men-fundamentalists-violent men who despise their fellow Muslims, Palestinians, Jordanians, Christians, Jews, gays, women, Bahaiis, Hindus, Buddists, trade unionists, moderates, on and on it goes.

This is not about Palestinians. It never was. If it was about Palestinians there would be a nation next door to Israel whose people lived peacefully and formed an economic union with Israel,Jordan nd Lebanon.

...........................................

It was never about that. Ever.

This genius above who wants everyone to blame Israel and ignore Hamas and try justify terror and hatred as normal, you can have him Buffy. If you are so convinced he is the romantic tragedy figure you should intercourse with, oh be my guest.

Well said:

What is is sad is that these pictures of Palestinians celebrating the massacre IMO means there is NO chance for peace. To me it shows that too many Palestinians embrace a culture of death, a culture stuck in the Dark Ages of ancient hatreds and unmentionable violence. Where, were the pictures of sad Palestinians, or maybe they were just too scared to come out of the woodwork and speak up.

Edited March 9, 2008 by scriblett

[White Doors]

Israel ranks 69th in foreign aid received in 2007 just ahead of "rich" countries like Chad.

Economic aid - recipient 2007

In GDP/person it ranked 36th.

GDP - per capita (PPP) 2007

Just behind the economic "powerhouse" Spain.

It ranked 5th in military spending per GDP.

Military expenditures - percent of GDP 2007

What a wonderful country!

I agree, I can't wait to go and visit!

[JB Globe]

I found it odd that most news reports left out the fact that this seminary was one affiliated with the settler movement in Israel, aka - Jewish Extremists.

The gunman could have shot up any seminary, he could've gunned down any Jew wearing a keepa in the street as he was walking to the place, but he didn't. Since the settlers are the FUNCTIONAL Israeli counterpart to Hamas, (note how I didn't make a moral equivalence) in that their aims run totally contrary to peace efforts and are the main source of antagonism towards the other side. Translation - Settlers are the ones on the Israeli side who do their damnest to make a peace settlement impossible. Case in point - Olmer recently announced the expansion of a West Bank settlement, causing the chief negotiator on the Palestinian side to say that with that move, the peace talks are essentially dead.

To flip it, it would be like a gunman going after the most radical mosque in town - despicable, but clearly not an attack intended to be against Muslims in general - but of course that's how it would play, and that's how this attack plays in Israel and the world. Of course, I have no sympathy for the attacker . . .

The killings won't do Palestinians any good - the gunman clearly wasn't thinking about what's truly best for his people, because, as we know, in the neo-con/Likhud psyche, one Israeli life is worth 100 dead Palestinians, and now the IDF can collateral damage (it's a verb now) a few hundred more civilians to death without Israelis starting to feel guilty about it.

This attack will just prolong the realization that everyone will have to come to, which is that peace isn't possible without Israel giving up the settlements and Palestinians giving up terrorism.

[JB Globe]

I found it odd that most news reports left out the fact that this seminary was one affiliated with the settler movement in Israel, aka - Jewish Extremists.

The gunman could have shot up any seminary, he could've gunned down any Jew wearing a keepa in the street as he was walking to the place, but he didn't. Since the settlers are the FUNCTIONAL Israeli counterpart to Hamas, (note how I didn't make a moral equivalence) in that their aims run totally contrary to peace efforts and are the main source of antagonism towards the other side. Translation - Settlers are the ones on the Israeli side who do their damnest to make a peace settlement impossible. Case in point - Olmer recently announced the expansion of a West Bank settlement, causing the chief negotiator on the Palestinian side to say that with that move, the peace talks are essentially dead.

To flip it, it would be like a gunman going after the most radical mosque in town - despicable, but clearly not an attack intended to be against Muslims in general - but of course that's how it would play, and that's how this attack plays in Israel and the world. Of course, I have no sympathy for the attacker . . .

The killings won't do Palestinians any good - the gunman clearly wasn't thinking about what's truly best for his people, because, as we know, in the neo-con/Likhud psyche, one Israeli life is worth 100 dead Palestinians, and now the IDF can collateral damage (it's a verb now) a few hundred more civilians to death without Israelis starting to feel guilty about it.

This attack will just prolong the realization that everyone will have to come to, which is that peace isn't possible without Israel giving up the settlements and Palestinians giving up terrorism.

[White Doors]

I see. they deserved it. How quaint.

[socred]

I see. they deserved it. How quaint.

The Isrealis are always the victim. Isn't that how it always works?

[White Doors]

The Isrealis are always the victim. Isn't that how it always works?

So you are saying that the people that died in this attack were not, in fact, victims?

[JB Globe]

I see. they deserved it. How quaint.

If I said anything like that than go ahead and quote me directly, because otherwise you just look like someone who lacks the capacity to respond intelligently to an argument so they resort to character assassination.

[Regulus de Leo]

Oh the irony....but hey if the Palestinias hadn't stolen billions from their own people and spend the rest of the money on arms they might have had better hospitals.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/...,540689,00.html

"When a Palestinian woman gave birth to twins in an Israeli hospital she experienced what it is like to be the target of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip.

The father is holding the first photos of his newborn twins in his hands. He is worried about the rockets being fired at Ashkelon. He says that he would never have believed it possible that he could be indebted to the Israelis for anything. "What a confusing situation," he says."

[HisSelf]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread. Did anybody mention that this seminary has a high profile for supporting the Israeli Settler movement? ...

[Peter F]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread. Did anybody mention that this seminary has a high profile for supporting the Israeli Settler movement? ...

Doesn't matter. Nobody has any right to go in and shoot them - no matter the cause or excuse or history or motivation or resentments or anger of the people doing the killing. They are only allowed to protest peacefully and nothing more. Then the expansion of settlements will stop and there will be no need of violence to achieve any specific end....well at least that's what applies to Palestinians.