federal Liberal performance as official opposition

[Rovik]

As much as I'm against the many of the ideologies of the Conservatives, I have come to the conclusion that the Liberals are, by far, the most inept and useless party in Parliament.

After just watching the budget vote and just witnessing the Liberals playing their foolish games, I can't see why anyone would vote for these guys. And Dion, why did you even bother to vote at all when you have most of your caucus abstain. It's so sad to see what the Liberals have become...chickens that are scared to stand up for their constitutents because "they are not ready" for an election. Let's face it, they are more concerned about saving their own behinds then to do their jobs and actually be an effective opposition.

Unbelievable.

EDIT:

The title of this thread has been changed to federal Liberal performance as official opposition, Stop Playing Games and do Your Job to be more descriptive of the topic.

The original title was Stop Playing Games and do Your Job before the change.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Charles Anthony
thread title changed

[guyser]

Unbelievable.

....and when the Cons had 2 seats ?

[Slim MacSquinty]

You know what is perhaps more perverse than the Liberals lack of honest conviction is the fact that about 25 pecent of the electorate won't budge from supporting them.

Although I don't agree with them, I can understand those who support the NDP and Greens, I can even understand the bargaining position philosophy of voting BLOC, but I just do not understand why people cling to the Liberals. Not in recent history have they stood for anything but green eyed envious pursuit of power, even back in the days of CD Howe when they made all their friends millionairs off the war effort.

In my mind voting Liberal is like supporting the Czar, the NDP throwing your lot in with Lennon, I see parallels to class struggles of olden times.

[guyser]

In my mind voting Liberal is like supporting the Czar, the NDP throwing your lot in with Lennon, I see parallels to class struggles of olden times.

John or Yoko ?

Whos honest...they are all politicians.

[FTA Lawyer]

Having most of your party intentionally no-show so that you prop up a government that you say has no business governing is about as pathetic as it gets.

Then you try to say it's just because the people don't want an election right now...isn't that another way of saying that the present government is worthy of governing?

At least Her Majesty's unofficial opposition parties are standing in opposition.

I fully agree with the title of the thread...either support and work with the government or do your job and topple it. Every day that passes where you do neither is one more scoop out of the gaping hole where you used to store your pride and credibility.

FTA

[sideshow]

Having most of your party intentionally no-show so that you prop up a government that you say has no business governing is about as pathetic as it gets.

Then you try to say it's just because the people don't want an election right now...isn't that another way of saying that the present government is worthy of governing?

At least Her Majesty's unofficial opposition parties are standing in opposition.

I fully agree with the title of the thread...either support and work with the government or do your job and topple it. Every day that passes where you do neither is one more scoop out of the gaping hole where you used to store your pride and credibility.

FTA

Well if they supported the government, then they would eliminate the need for them as opposition. So they should just oppose the government outright. Or floor cross for personal benefit as all the parties do.

[myata]

Right. The job of the opposition is to topple the government. And if no party manages to gather a majority, we'll have a string of toppled governments and elections with no real change. Smart analysis, as usual. Causing an election with no real cause and having whole country go to the polls with all likelihood of the same result, sounds pretty dumb. It's Harper who's itching for an election without being seen as calling one (for no reason, really) and I'm impressed that Liberals aren't taking the bait.

[Shakeyhands]

youd think you all knew nothing about politics. Sad really. Enjoy your time in Government and quit yerbitchin'

[Keepitsimple]

There are two huge constituencies that in my opinion, vote Liberal by a large margin. They include the Civil Service - people who work directly or indirectly for the Federal government......and I'll stretch that a bit to the Provincial Civil Services. The reality doesn't matter - but Liberals are perceived to be big government, while Conservatives are perceived to be smaller government. That translates to a perceived threat of job cuts or benefit cuts. It doesen't have to be true - but if you are a civil servant with a life-long job, cannot reasonable expect to be fired or laid off, and have gold plated pensions - why would you not be biased in favour of the Liberals.

The second constituency is Newer Canadians going back as far as Trudeau......the Liberals opened the floodgates to immigration and those who arrived are thankful to the government who let them in.

That's why it's so hard to move that "base" of Liberal support.

There's a third constituency and that's Lawyers....but let's not get into that right now.

[Topaz]

I agree on the Liberals and I will hope soon we would have an election but my question is which is worse have a government like Harper's that breaks the laws and covers them up or an opposition that can't decide when to bring on the government? The voters' gave Harper only a minority government because they didn't know him or trust him and I think the voters were right.

[Wild Bill]

As much as I'm against the many of the ideologies of the Conservatives, I have come to the conclusion that the Liberals are, by far, the most inept and useless party in Parliament.

After just watching the budget vote and just witnessing the Liberals playing their foolish games, I can't see why anyone would vote for these guys. And Dion, why did you even bother to vote at all when you have most of your caucus abstain. It's so sad to see what the Liberals have become...chickens that are scared to stand up for their constitutents because "they are not ready" for an election. Let's face it, they are more concerned about saving their own behinds then to do their jobs and actually be an effective opposition.

Unbelievable.

All generalizations are flawed, including this one!

That being said, I've pondered this very question for more than 40 years now. I've come to the conclusion that some folks are heart people and some lead with their head. By this I mean not that some folks are cold "Mr. Spock" characters but rather that a lot of folks are more emotional and intuitive in their judgements, rather than logical.

These are the type of people that if caught in a leaky, sinking lifeboat would start championing the right of everyone to a turn on a dry seat before considering finding out who's best at bailing!

There's an old joke about Canadian politics:

A man is drowning 60 feet from shore. A Tory sees him and tosses him a 50 foot rope, telling him to make an effort for that last 10 feet. An NDP supporter takes a rope away from another drowning man, telling him "You seem to be a good enough swimmer on your own!"

A Liberal throws him a 60 foot rope but when the man is almost at the shore the Liberal drops his end and rushes off to do another good deed!

To a heart person politics is a faith rather than a reasoned choice. They've made an assumption that only Liberals are caring people and that others are right wing because "they like to be cruel".

It's a religion, plain and simple. If your choice is on the side of the angels you don't have to answer nasty conflicting reason or evidence. You've got faith! It's just Satan(Harper) testing you!

This is not to be confused with basic intelligence. There have been many brilliant theologians down through history that could write Jesuit level arguments, all spun not from proven fact but from first accepting their religion as an article of faith. Logic is only a tool in that you can logically prove anything as long as you only deal with data that supports your argument, whether because that's all you have or that's all you choose to see.

Being Liberal makes this type of personality feel like a "good person". It also lends to some delicious righteousness, slamming all opposition as "mean-spirited" if not outright evil!

That's why we keep going round and round on issues like the Liberal gun registry. A Tory argues in terms of effectiveness, costs and results. A Liberal believes you should support the registry to show you CARE about DOING SOMETHING! The converse of course is that if you are against that registry then you mustn't care!

The idea of "Does it actually accomplish the goal?" is beyond their comprehension.

"Caring" people will forgive anything, but only with people on their "side". People still gave money to Jim Bakker and Tammy Fae after their fall from grace. Hillary picked up some electoral votes after she cried in public. Liberals forgive Shawinigate and HDRC but condemn a Preston Manning for a dry cleaning bill.

P T Barnum said it long ago: "Makers, takers and fakers. There are no other kinds!"

This should spark some flame!

[eyeball]

Wild Bill's idea that a lot of folks are more emotional and intuitive in their judgements, rather than logical misses an important aspect. There are times when its appropriate for people to use their head and others when its more appropriate to use their hearts. The trouble is the time lag between the time a judgement is needed and the corresponding action is finally taken.

The more I see of our Parliamentary system of government the more convinced I am that its entirely ill suited for a day and age when information moves at the speed of light. It was designed for a time when information moved no faster than a horse and buggy.

As for the Liberals it really does look like they are even more useless in opposition than when they were in power but I think this is more a function of our first-past-the-post-system. Given the likelihood that minority governments will become the norm in this country, especially now that Quebec has established its strong penchant for being represented by a regional party, moving to proportional representation might lessen the cynicism and shit-flinging spectacle that's come to characterize Parliament. Direct democracy or referenda and citizens assemblies should also be used to speed up the decision making process and make better use of the judgements that Canadians are probably better qualified to make on their own.

[Topaz]

Wild Bill's idea that a lot of folks are more emotional and intuitive in their judgements, rather than logical misses an important aspect. There are times when its appropriate for people to use their head and others when its more appropriate to use their hearts. The trouble is the time lag between the time a judgement is needed and the corresponding action is finally taken.

The more I see of our Parliamentary system of government the more convinced I am that its entirely ill suited for a day and age when information moves at the speed of light. It was designed for a time when information moved no faster than a horse and buggy.

As for the Liberals it really does look like they are even more useless in opposition than when they were in power but I think this is more a function of our first-past-the-post-system. Given the likelihood that minority governments will become the norm in this country, especially now that Quebec has established its strong penchant for being represented by a regional party, moving to proportional representation might lessen the cynicism and shit-flinging spectacle that's come to characterize Parliament. Direct democracy or referenda and citizens assemblies should also be used to speed up the decision making process and make better use of the judgements that Canadians are probably better qualified to make on their own.

I think what the Liberals are doing is waiting until after the BY-ELELCTION on the 17th. I think with what the world is shaping and changing so much, with greed, corruption and power, I think if we want a Canada that good to live in then forget belonging to a certain party and use the brains God gave us and look and listen what the parties say and do. IE. The government over paid a friend of Flaherty and broke the law concerning the minister of finance speech. What does the government say, don't worry, the money was well spent!! Is that the kind of government we want. I don't care which party says it, I don't want a party in the PMO that thinks they can do anything they want!

[madmax]

....and when the Cons had 2 seats ?

If you are suggesting to reduce the Liberals to the SEVEN (7) voting members who made the effort to vote on their own amendment then I am in agreement.

If only 7 can be bothered to vote, then that is all they need elected.

If their purpose is to prop up the conservatives and vote for conservative agendas and not vote for their own agenda, then clearly, you may as well elect a Conservative.

If you really want to put forth amendments with conviction, then you should elect an MP from a party that is not a member of the Liberal Party, because, obviously, under Stephen Dion, their is no committment to anything they profess to support.

I think that it is only political junkies who care. I believe dyed in the wool Liberal Supporters are happy with this strategy because it keeps them alive, and their hopes alive that they can wait this out and reform the government.

But as an opposition party, this group of Liberals appear pathetic.

[guyser]

But as an opposition party, this group of Liberals appear pathetic.

Remove "appear" and put in "are" . Lets not beat around the bush.

[Arjun]

The Federal MP in our area is a family friend, and when I asked him why his party was not voting against the conservatives he said that he didnt want to go into the election looking like there party didnt want to stop crime (the example I had used was the crime bill).

I personally wouldn't vote Liberal, and I encourage my parents not to either.

[madmax]

Remove "appear" and put in "are" . Lets not beat around the bush.

Ok...

This group of Liberals ARE pathetic.

The CPC went to great lengths to portray Dion as weak. Had they waited, they wouldn't have had to spend all that money on advertising

[madmax]

The Federal MP in our area is a family friend, and when I asked him why his party was not voting against the conservatives he said that he didnt want to go into the election looking like there party didnt want to stop crime (the example I had used was the crime bill).

Or stop anything else for that matter. Obviously, more worried about the party then the policy.

I personally wouldn't vote Liberal, and I encourage my parents not to either.

Friendship and Politics can be separate.

[Leafless]

You know what is perhaps more perverse than the Liberals lack of honest conviction is the fact that about 25 pecent of the electorate won't budge from supporting them.

Oh that must be Quebec /Maritime provinces Liberal supporters, federal employees, pensioners, and anyone else dependant on especially the federal Liberal gravy train.

That sounds like more than 25%.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Leafless

[jdobbin]

There are two huge constituencies that in my opinion, vote Liberal by a large margin. They include the Civil Service - people who work directly or indirectly for the Federal government......and I'll stretch that a bit to the Provincial Civil Services. The reality doesn't matter - but Liberals are perceived to be big government, while Conservatives are perceived to be smaller government. That translates to a perceived threat of job cuts or benefit cuts. It doesen't have to be true - but if you are a civil servant with a life-long job, cannot reasonable expect to be fired or laid off, and have gold plated pensions - why would you not be biased in favour of the Liberals.

Unfortunately, it is the Tories that have been increasing the size of government. Spending is out of control and the size of the civil service has grown.

The second constituency is Newer Canadians going back as far as Trudeau......the Liberals opened the floodgates to immigration and those who arrived are thankful to the government who let them in.

That's why it's so hard to move that "base" of Liberal support.

There's a third constituency and that's Lawyers....but let's not get into that right now.

The anti-immigration feeling among some of the right wing is hard for even third generation families to get over.

[capricorn]

Unfortunately, it is the Tories that have been increasing the size of government.

Oh really? I'd ask for a link supporting your claim but instead I'll provide it to show your unfounded partisan claim.

In March 2006, just over 380,700 individuals were working for the federal government, down slightly from nearly 382,000 in March 1995.

During this 11-year period, the number of federal employees declined and then rebound.

Since reaching a low of about 326,500 in March 1999, employment in the public service has increased at an average annual rate of growth of 2.2%.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/070305/d070305a.htm

The Liberals were the government for the years 1999 to 2005 during which the size of the bureaucracy rose by an average of 2.2% as StatsCan reports.

So to claim that the Conservatives are solely responsible for a bloated bureaucracy is pure partisan drivel. Nice try.

[Topaz]

Call Dion anything you want if it makes you feel better but today he really got Harper in Question Period!! Usually Dions ask the opening questions only but today after the NDP Layton asked Harper about NAFTA gate, Dion rose to ask a question on the same topic which Harper, his usually self, came back that Dion was kinda late asking his question that the NDP had beat him. Dion stood up again laughing and said I'm sorry but there's so many scandals going on in your government I can't keep up!!!! The Cons had really sad faces today and you can always tell when they are in trouble.

[Moxie]

Oh that must be Quebec /Maritime provinces Liberal supporters, federal employees, pensioners, and anyone else dependant on especially the federal Liberal gravy train.

That sounds like more than 25%.

A little clarification Leafless: Those of us that live in Atlantic Canada aren't sucking the taxpayers tit vis a vis the Feds it's Ontario and Quebec that are. We ain't "Bilingual Enough", Ontario is fast becoming a have not province and your Geographfical slurs are old trite and frankly boring. Ontario is a has been province, Alberta is where it's at BABY.

My province is governed by the Cons, useless bunch of wankers. As for Harper he's just another leader of yet another far left party that is posing as a Conservative Party. The Cons are Liberal Light or Diet Con, nothing he does represents Conservative values. As a Con I can't stand his dictator style of leadership or lack there of. Canadians will not be voting for the Conservatives they will be voting against the Liberals. I can't believe I'm typing this but the NDP is the only party that seems to care about Canada and her people. The Cons and Libs spend their days looking for ways to smear each other, they are acting like three year olds. I'm tired of both parties, if the NDP weren't such a fringe group and hauled their pants up and bacame more main stream I'd vote for them.

Frankly most Canadians will be holding their noses come election time, neither the Libs or the Cons deserve to be PM and the NDP care more about Minority rights than democracy. Decent Canadians don't have a party to vote for, just parties to vote against.

[jazzer]

Usually Dions ask the opening questions only but today after the NDP Layton asked Harper about NAFTA gate, Dion rose to ask a question on the same topic which Harper, his usually self, came back that Dion was kinda late asking his question that the NDP had beat him. Dion stood up again laughing and said I'm sorry but there's so many scandals going on in your government I can't keep up!!!!

Yep, kinda makes the Quebec Lib's sponsorship deal look pretty tame.

[capricorn]

Call Dion anything you want if it makes you feel better but today he really got Harper in Question Period!!

Yeah, did he ever!

Usually Dions ask the opening questions only but today after the NDP Layton asked Harper about NAFTA gate, Dion rose to ask a question on the same topic which Harper, his usually self, came back that Dion was kinda late asking his question that the NDP had beat him.

Harper praised Layton for having asked well thought out questions on the NAFTA leak. A small pat on the back to the NDP. Harper really is nasty.

Dion stood up again laughing and said I'm sorry but there's so many scandals going on in your government I can't keep up!!!!

Oh my! We wouldn't want Dion to have a memory lapse at a time when he's on a roll.

The Cons had really sad faces today and you can always tell when they are in trouble.

Don't confuse sadness with boredom. There is a difference. Even I was bored and changed the channel.