Alberta Election

[fellowtraveller]

Say, whatever became of old Svend Robbingstores?

[oreodontist]

Say, whatever became of old Svend Robbingstores?

He ran for the NDP. Kid you not. Layton embraced the ring-stealing thief. No, he didn't steal a loaf or bread but jewellry....and Layton had him run under the NDP banner.

And that party claims to speak for workers and farmers? They run a ring-stealing thief and preach social justice to the poor? To workers who earn their money and BUY a ring. To farmers who sweat in the fields to earn a wage to BUY a ring. They allow a thief to run as an NDP candidate and wonder why they are not taken serious?

[Bayman35]

He ran for the NDP. Kid you not. Layton embraced the ring-stealing thief. No, he didn't steal a loaf or bread but jewellry....and Layton had him run under the NDP banner.

And that party claims to speak for workers and farmers? They run a ring-stealing thief and preach social justice to the poor? To workers who earn their money and BUY a ring. To farmers who sweat in the fields to earn a wage to BUY a ring. They allow a thief to run as an NDP candidate and wonder why they are not taken serious?

Jack didn't really have a choice, the riding association propped him up and the party ran a good candidate against him for the nomination but he still got more backing from the riding association. As soon as he won the contested nomination he made it quite clear to the party that it was illegal to discriminate against anyone with a criminal record. With that statement out in the open what choice did we have, if we turned down his nomination he would have launched a complaint with the Human Rights commission almost immediately. So given the choices there really was no choice. That and where is your good christian values about when someone asks for forgiveness they get it? LOL

[oreodontist]

Jack didn't really have a choice, the riding association propped him up and the party ran a good candidate against him for the nomination but he still got more backing from the riding association. As soon as he won the contested nomination he made it quite clear to the party that it was illegal to discriminate against anyone with a criminal record. With that statement out in the open what choice did we have, if we turned down his nomination he would have launched a complaint with the Human Rights commission almost immediately. So given the choices there really was no choice. That and where is your good christian values about when someone asks for forgiveness they get it? LOL

So true. the NDP is so littered with airhead intellectuals at the riding level that they are removed from the reality of the workers and farmers. So blinded by their self-righteousness and 'preaching' to the unwashed masses that they hve no hope of changing their stripes. Nominating a thief and having a leader too afraid to challenge the idiots who nominated him says wonders about how caked in rot the NDP has become.

[Bayman35]

So true. the NDP is so littered with airhead intellectuals at the riding level that they are removed from the reality of the workers and farmers. So blinded by their self-righteousness and 'preaching' to the unwashed masses that they hve no hope of changing their stripes. Nominating a thief and having a leader too afraid to challenge the idiots who nominated him says wonders about how caked in rot the NDP has become.

That being the case, how do they have 27 federal seats? How did they almost take government in Nova Scotia, BC, Saskatchewan, NWT, and still have government in Manitoba? Whether you like it or not they are still a political force in this country and I don't think its because they are "airheads removed from the reality of workers and farmers" they just don't have influence in Alberta, so what. Canada is the some of all of its parts no just Alberta. For gods sake I hate Conservative ideology with a passion that is just about sexual in intensity but I don't think they are "airheads" because I don't agree with them. We just don't agree and that's that, I have a lot of respect for some Conservatives out there and I even voted for Joe Clark once, I just no longer identify with most of what they stand for. I work as hard as anybody in here, I have an education yes but I work on and with heavy equipment everyday and I don't feel like the party is out of touch whatsoever in the rest of the country. What makes me laugh is when you see Harper and Stelmach talking about greenhouse gas when Ed says I want to reduce by 12% by 2050 and Harper says "no Ed by 2020" and they all make themselves try and look like they give two s@$#'s about the environment. Hint vast majority of Canadians aren't buying your political stunt outside of Alberta, that's why no matter how much the Liberals screw up or for that matter the NDP these Alliance I mean Conservatives can't win a majority government, they aren't trusted either.

[oreodontist]

That being the case, how do they have 27 federal seats? How did they almost take government in Nova Scotia, BC, Saskatchewan, NWT, and still have government in Manitoba? Whether you like it or not they are still a political force in this country and I don't think its because they are "airheads removed from the reality of workers and farmers" they just don't have influence in Alberta, so what. Canada is the some of all of its parts no just Alberta. For gods sake I hate Conservative ideology with a passion that is just about sexual in intensity but I don't think they are "airheads" because I don't agree with them. We just don't agree and that's that, I have a lot of respect for some Conservatives out there and I even voted for Joe Clark once, I just no longer identify with most of what they stand for. I work as hard as anybody in here, I have an education yes but I work on and with heavy equipment everyday and I don't feel like the party is out of touch whatsoever in the rest of the country. What makes me laugh is when you see Harper and Stelmach talking about greenhouse gas when Ed says I want to reduce by 12% by 2050 and Harper says "no Ed by 2020" and they all make themselves try and look like they give two s@$#'s about the environment. Hint vast majority of Canadians aren't buying your political stunt outside of Alberta, that's why no matter how much the Liberals screw up or for that matter the NDP these Alliance I mean Conservatives can't win a majority government, they aren't trusted either.

????? It's okay for a jewell thief to run for the NDP because of the above? You are a microcosm of what's wrong with the NDP. Close your eyes and don't look at the rot within but excuse it away by 'the other guy is....'

Edited March 11, 2008 by oreodontist

[Bayman35]

????? It's okay for a jewell thief to run for the NDP because of the above? You are a microcosm of what's wrong with the NDP. Close your eyes and don't look at the rot within but excuse it away by 'the other guy is....'

At any point in that statement did I say "it was okay for him to run" because I don't see that anywhere so put your bag of words away and stop throwing them in people's mouthes. I didn't agree with him running, the fact is he was highly popular in his riding before "the theft" but none of that would have mattered in the long run, the fact is he would have won a human rights case against the party hands down because of the obvious reasons for us turning down his nomination would have forced us to accept him anyways. We had no choice, which is worse for a party to accept his nomination knowing if we don't he wins anyways and we just spent a huge sack of money trying to fight against someone's human rights or just accept it knowing that the riding itself will be the judge and they were, he never got elected. I think given the choice we made was the right thing and left it up to the people of his constituency and they rendered judgement. So before you make a statement like "you are a microcosm of what's wrong with the NDP" make sure you know what you are talking about and exactly what it is you are being critical of. As for mentioning the stuff about the environment it was to demonstrate that there is so-called "rot" everywhere and that people living in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

[oreodontist]

Cripes. You are blinded by your NDippershiP

He was extremely popular in the party. He received the nomination. This is the party that wants to represent the logger in the Saguenay...the wheat farmer in Swift current? What the friggin heck does the NDP believe in if they all rallied behind a jewell thief?

[Bayman35]

Cripes. You are blinded by your NDippershiP

He was extremely popular in the party. He received the nomination. This is the party that wants to represent the logger in the Saguenay...the wheat farmer in Swift current? What the friggin heck does the NDP believe in if they all rallied behind a jewell thief?

Actually it was the residents of Vancouver who wanted to nominate him, not the party. We had to accept the nomination because he won a highly contested nomination for the riding. So as a leader what are your options? Accept what the riding has done, or fight it and lose a bunch of the parties money and eventually the case itself, leaving us with no money and the candidate we didn't want to win or let the people of his riding judge what he has done and try and put your best face on. Well Layton chose to put his best face on and let the riding determine his future, they did voting in what's her name Hedi Frie? or however you spell it you know the Liberal who said "there were crosses burning in Prince George". This is not an original concept either, take a look at BC politics in general their preier was convicted of drunk driving yet he is still at the wheel of the province and he isn't NDP.

[Bayman35]

Actually it was the residents of Vancouver who wanted to nominate him, not the party. We had to accept the nomination because he won a highly contested nomination for the riding. So as a leader what are your options? Accept what the riding has done, or fight it and lose a bunch of the parties money and eventually the case itself, leaving us with no money and the candidate we didn't want to win or let the people of his riding judge what he has done and try and put your best face on. Well Layton chose to put his best face on and let the riding determine his future, they did voting in what's her name Hedi Frie? or however you spell it you know the Liberal who said "there were crosses burning in Prince George". This is not an original concept either, take a look at BC politics in general their preier was convicted of drunk driving yet he is still at the wheel of the province and he isn't NDP.

They chose to rally behind a drunk instead of a thief on that occasion and nobody mentions that, for gods sake the guy was smiling when they took his mug shot! He was probably still loaded

[fellowtraveller]

I hope Svend Robbingstores overcome the stress that led him to stealing.

Like all others that experience stress, it was not his fault that caused him to become a criminal.

I blame society.

[oreodontist]

I hope Svend Robbingstores overcome the stress that led him to stealing.

Like all others that experience stress, it was not his fault that caused him to become a criminal.

I blame society.

True. We should be more understanding. Sven was a victim. We should put his photo on a postage stamp as a reminder that jewell thieves are humans like any other. The fact that the NDP praises a jewell thief in just another feather in that party's cap...they represent the real victims of soceity, jewell thieves, and not those seedy farmer and unwashed workers. I bet the NDP gets at least 90% of the jewell thief vote...no need to up their 5% of the farmers' vote. The NDP has its priorities right!

[White Doors]

True. We should be more understanding. Sven was a victim. We should put his photo on a postage stamp as a reminder that jewell thieves are humans like any other. The fact that the NDP praises a jewell thief in just another feather in that party's cap...they represent the real victims of soceity, jewell thieves, and not those seedy farmer and unwashed workers. I bet the NDP gets at least 90% of the jewell thief vote...no need to up their 5% of the farmers' vote. The NDP has its priorities right!

"Jewel" is how it is spelled.

being nitpicky will only come back to haunt you.

[Black Dog]

Sorry as I am to disrupt this circle-jerk, but I wanted to bring tis back on topic.

fellowtraveller:

The opposition and whiners here keep parroting some halfassed concept that the democratioc process is on death row in Alberta. Hardly - this Premier was chosen in the most open leadership program imaginable where anybopdy with $5 from any partisan background could and did vote.

If the leadership race requires a) money and partisan identification it is not "the most open leadership program imaginable."

What the Oppostiion needs to do is clear and simple- come p with leaders , ideas and programs that have some semblance of interest and appeal to Albertans. So far, it is they who have failed to represent or engage Albertans.

True to some extent, but also grossly simplistic. You underestimate the degree to whcih an institution like the PC party insinuates itself into every level of the political machine and how entrenched it is after almost 40 years in power. It's pretty damn hard for any oppossition to come up with leaders or a program that apeals to Albertans when all the money and influence is allocated to PCs and PC partisans. To pretend there's a level playing field and that the opposition need only capture the hearts and minds of voters is naive at best and disingeneous at worst.

[fellowtraveller]

Sorry as I am to disrupt this circle-jerk, but I wanted to bring tis back on topic.

fellowtraveller:

If the leadership race requires a) money and partisan identification it is not "the most open leadership program imaginable."

True to some extent, but also grossly simplistic. You underestimate the degree to whcih an institution like the PC party insinuates itself into every level of the political machine and how entrenched it is after almost 40 years in power. It's pretty damn hard for any oppossition to come up with leaders or a program that apeals to Albertans when all the money and influence is allocated to PCs and PC partisans. To pretend there's a level playing field and that the opposition need only capture the hearts and minds of voters is naive at best and disingeneous at worst.

To vote in the PC leadership race, you had to join the PC, which cost five bucks and you were then handed a ballot. Nobody cared what your politvwl affiliation was. Name any party anywhere that allows that kind of access.

All the opposition has to do is present a credible program, same as anywhere else. There are no Tory Gestapo or KGB operatives. People voted for the Tories for the most obvious and simple reason: they are relatively content. I don't know why supposedly intelligent people refuse to acknowledge what is right in front of them. Same reason for the low turnout.

[Black Dog]

All the opposition has to do is present a credible program, same as anywhere else.

And even if they had a credible program, the superior Tory resources (thanks to porous campaign finance laws), electoral boundaries that skew right by favouring rural areas with 1/3 of the population with half the seats, and teh total lack of division between government and party would ensure we'd be right where we are.

There are no Tory Gestapo or KGB operatives.

Yeah: totally what I was saying. Thanks for missing the point.

People voted for the Tories for the most obvious and simple reason: they are relatively content.

Except we're talking about those that didn't vote at all. You know: 60 per cent of Albertans? Now you claim that they too are "content." I think that's an unproveable assertion. By that logic, the optimal voter turnout would be 0.

[oreodontist]

And even if they had a credible program, the superior Tory resources (thanks to porous campaign finance laws), electoral boundaries that skew right by favouring rural areas with 1/3 of the population with half the seats, and teh total lack of division between government and party would ensure we'd be right where we are.

Yeah: totally what I was saying. Thanks for missing the point.

Except we're talking about those that didn't vote at all. You know: 60 per cent of Albertans? Now you claim that they too are "content." I think that's an unproveable assertion. By that logic, the optimal voter turnout would be 0.

More baloney. Such infantile assessments are self-fulfilling. Blaming 'the process' and other phoney obstacles when the real reason for pathetic opposition is ignored...THE MESSAGE. Keep talking down to workers and farmers as if they are children and they will ignore you. People are intelligent and don't need protection from the 'evil Conservatives'.

Edited March 20, 2008 by oreodontist

[fellowtraveller]

Except we're talking about those that didn't vote at all. You know: 60 per cent of Albertans? Now you claim that they too are "content." I think that's an unproveable assertion. By that logic, the optimal voter turnout would be 0.

Unproven? Provide a credible reason then, instead of doing what the relatively few Lib and NDP supporters do: whine when they have their asses handed to them.

Does it not stand to reason that energized, angry, discontented, politically motivated, interrested,upset, Klein-hating voters would put down the remote and get out there and vote out these Tory scum.

See, I think that is exactly what happened- those people did just that. The engaged voters did vote. And the results were clear, except to the ignorant who refuse to acknowledge simple reality.

[oreodontist]

And the results were clear, except to the ignorant who refuse to acknowledge simple reality.

That is why the Conservatives will probably win another majority next election like the last dozen. The opposition parties never do a real assessment of their deafeat. They excuse away the results. they keep banging their heads on the same wall.

[Black Dog]

More baloney. Such infantile assessments are self-fulfilling. Blaming 'the process' and other phoney obstacles when the real reason for pathetic opposition is ignored...THE MESSAGE. Keep talking down to workers and farmers as if they are children and they will ignore you. People are intelligent and don't need protection from the 'evil Conservatives'.

Examples?

You'll note, whoever you are, that I didn't say anything about the Liberals or NDs losing despite having credible leadership or a message that resonates with voters. I'm saying nearly 40 years of Tory dominance of the political machine is extremely difficult to dent even with those things in place. Without, it's completely hopeless.

Unproven? Provide a credible reason then, instead of doing what the relatively few Lib and NDP supporters do: whine when they have their asses handed to them.

It's just as credible to sugest that after 40 years of one party rule, voters belive the results are inevitable and don't bother to vote.

Does it not stand to reason that energized, angry, discontented, politically motivated, interrested,upset, Klein-hating voters would put down the remote and get out there and vote out these Tory scum.

If they thought they could make a difference, sure. But they probably don't.

See, I think that is exactly what happened- those people did just that. The engaged voters did vote. And the results were clear, except to the ignorant who refuse to acknowledge simple reality.

Your being a total asshole aside, doesn't that contradict your underlying premise that discontented voters are engaged voters?

At the end of the day, there's no one right answer. Some people stayed home because they are happy with the status quo. Some stayed home because they didn't feel their participation would affect the result (I'd wager this is especialy true in urban areas). Other couldn't care less about politics at all (probably the majority, which is itself a problem). I've acknowldged that from the start. But one would have to be an idealogue, have a vested interest in the PCs, be blind or any combination thereof to suggest everything is fine, the system is totally fair and people always get the government they want. Such narratives are simplistic and self-serving and should not go unexamined.

That is why the Conservatives will probably win another majority next election like the last dozen. The opposition parties never do a real assessment of their deafeat. They excuse away the results. they keep banging their heads on the same wall.

Whoever said anything about the opposition deserving better than they got on their merits? I should also add that it's funny that the same people crowing about the results in Alberta were probably leading the "western alienation" cryfest.

[Canadian Blue]

First of all, I'm a Conservative and I actually support what Black Dog is stating. The current situation in Alberta isn't healthy for democracy, especially when the current premier so flippantly doesn't care that the voter turnout was at 40%. Preston Manning has recently begun writing on how to get more Albertan's involved in democracy, and in a sense about how to bring back a little bit of accountability to the electorate.

PS: I think the oppositions biggest downfall was those ads by the public unions [No Plan] which may have in fact given the PC's a boost. Perhaps if both parties had not run terrible campaigns as well we'd be in a different situation.

However I'm sure eight years from now we'll see a new premier in power coming from a party which came out of the blue. That is if Alberta's history is any indicator of future electoral results.