Alberta Election

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I am actually an Alberta separatist. I advocate direct democracy. I advocate a consumption tax instead of an income tax. I advocate free trade, but not the pretend free trade of NAFTA. I advocate getting out of NATA and the UN. I advocate a neutral international position. I advocate peacefully co-existence and sustainable development. I advocate environmental protection as well as economic diversification.

I am not your typical Albertan. I do not support either the mainstream or even the fringe partisan factions, I do support the free will of citizens and the independent candidates for public office. I seek a republic where ALL citizens have a say in the political leadership of the land. I seek a direct democracy where the citizens are able to create a public agenda and have the government truly act as the public servants that they are and implement the policies the citizens in their majority have determined to be in their own best interests.

[Bayman35]

I am actually an Alberta separatist. I advocate direct democracy. I advocate a consumption tax instead of an income tax. I advocate free trade, but not the pretend free trade of NAFTA. I advocate getting out of NATA and the UN. I advocate a neutral international position. I advocate peacefully co-existence and sustainable development. I advocate environmental protection as well as economic diversification.

I am not your typical Albertan. I do not support either the mainstream or even the fringe partisan factions, I do support the free will of citizens and the independent candidates for public office. I seek a republic where ALL citizens have a say in the political leadership of the land. I seek a direct democracy where the citizens are able to create a public agenda and have the government truly act as the public servants that they are and implement the policies the citizens in their majority have determined to be in their own best interests.

To be honest I do agree with some of your ideas, firstly though I am Canadian and a federalist. Mike Huckabee in the states is a candidate who puts forward a taxation system that you are talking about. The problem I have with taxes is not the fact that I paid $32000 last year its the fact that my level of service dropped off while I was doing it. If we maintained or improved our public services with those levels of taxation I would be happy to pay that or even a little more just give me the value I put into it. Both the feds and the province have the money it is just being poorly allocated right now. I advocate pulling out of NAFTA and other trade liberalization agreements because I think they have hurt our economy and given away control over our own resources. Right now for example we give away far too much raw bitumen south of the border for refining as opposed to doing it here. We really should be acting like owners of this resource either from the feds or the province but better direction is needed. Your form of government was practiced in ancient Athens and was referred to as "the polis" it is an interesting concept though. We would have to set aside money for referendums but I would agree with that. More direct democracy is needed to keep the government in check and I would advocate for a system of recall of some variety if a government is failing us. However as you can see I am not adverse to new ideas but would not want to do it outside the framework of the nation.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I was born into this nation the year the government killed the Avro Arrow. That was the beginning of the problems had with facing modern society. Canada has since become little more than a vassal state of America. Yet we see none of the benefits of America. Where is our free speech, where are our property rights? Canada has abandoned its citizens to corporate governance.

I am a proud Albertan, and for that I am derided by many Canadians. This provinces pays more into confederation every year than most of the rest of the nation combined. Canada is our welfare project paid for by the tax load of Alberta citizens and this is a condition of confederation as outlined in the constitution. It is not just transfer payments and equalization that Canada discriminates against Alberta citizens with, but it does have a huge economic impact to the citizens and families here. For those reasons alone, I desire to have my province become independent.

[Bayman35]

I was born into this nation the year the government killed the Avro Arrow. That was the beginning of the problems had with facing modern society. Canada has since become little more than a vassal state of America. Yet we see none of the benefits of America. Where is our free speech, where are our property rights? Canada has abandoned its citizens to corporate governance.

I am a proud Albertan, and for that I am derided by many Canadians. This provinces pays more into confederation every year than most of the rest of the nation combined. Canada is our welfare project paid for by the tax load of Alberta citizens and this is a condition of confederation as outlined in the constitution. It is not just transfer payments and equalization that Canada discriminates against Alberta citizens with, but it does have a huge economic impact to the citizens and families here. For those reasons alone, I desire to have my province become independent.

Canada moved from being dominated by Britian to the United States after the Suez crises. I would argue with you though that Alberta has really become Canada's most American province. This provinces agenda is dominated by corporations also, and the PC party. Take a look at the Edmonton Journal Article February 16th, 2008. The party appoints all returning officers from its own ranks, abhorrently undemocratic. It is not wrong to be a Tory and returning officer but to be picked solely on the basis you are a member of the Tory party is outrageous! This is a person who in the unlikely event there is a tie has the tie-braking vote. I look at the fact that in the beginning Alberta was Hudson's Bay Company land, what would Alberta be today if not purchased and drawn out by the Canadian government. It really depends on how you observe the arguments of our founding fathers and whether you believe their intentions were more provincial or federal? I took an entire semester seminar course on that argument at UofA in my fourth year to little avail. LOL

In essence being a Newfoundlander originally I see directly the benefits of transfer payments. Until Hibernia Newfoundland depended on that money to maintain their medical infrastructure and we were thankful for it. It maintained a medical infrastructure that haas saved many lives back home and a lot of us recognize that. But this is at what the essence of what I believe confederation and life is, helping each other. I am really a first generation Canadian since my parents were born in Newfoundland before confederation and I have heard this argument from several people back home about independence. Newfoundland has become one of the largest contributers of personal to the Canadian military in the last 30 years, one only has to look at Mr. Hillier to see that. We are a patriotic bunch but I think for the most part we have believed in contributing back to Canada buy sending our people out west and to Ontario to work. That and filling the ranks of the military for several years. I just think we were meant to be one nation. As for rights in America well I think the US patriot act puts all those rights into question.

[Bayman35]

As for being derided I don't think you will ever see a group within Canada made more fun of then Newfoundlanders LOL

[Hydraboss]

So did anyone even watch/care about last night's leaders debate? I thought it was far more interesting than I expected.

Brian Mason was actually good. Pretty impressive for a bus driver. Apparently his wife "thinks he's charismatic". Oh, good.

Kevin Taft kept trying to express himself in different ways. First, a quiet and collected guy. Then there was a question about charisma and suddenly he's all passionate about something or other. Then he tries to be insightful about something (couldn't figure out what his point was).

Pierre Elliot Stelmach looked like the chess club champion at the spring dance. Every word rehearsed and couldn't answer a straight question unless it was written down for him. But apparently his "plan" is quite extensive (I could get more detail from watching the CBC). Sad really.

Hinman looked at first like he was there to conduct a sound check. Speak, man, speak! Given that, when he did realize he possessed the power of speech, I thought he did well. I could see him splitting some votes from the Right Wing-like Liberals.

Overall, this reminded me in a very big way of a federal debate. Mason and Taliban Jack could be brothers reading the same script. Kevin Taft comes off as being a fruitcake. He did make some good points, but kept getting sucked in by his desire to play "Legislative Assembly" and spend his time starting sentences with "this government has failed to ....(insert anything here)....for 37 years. It's time for real change." Stelmach will be remembered by such heart-wrenching words as "uhhmmm" and "ah...um" and the always popular "well..uuhhh". Hinman will be remembered...actually that was about the best he could have hoped for.

So, do you think the debate swayed more than seven people out of the 20% undecided in the province?

Edited February 23, 2008 by Hydraboss

[geoffrey]

I just saw the clips on TV today. Taft comes across as a shrill whiner. He doesn't have the class to lead our province. Stelmach was respectable, but not assertive. Mason was typically boring. Hinman was impressive, concise and to the point. Unfortunately I don't think he did enough to attract votes or for people to take him seriously.

The big winner? Stelmach because he didn't lose. The big loser? Taft. He is such an annoying little brat. And he needs to learn to shut his mouth while others are talking. Disrespectful, rude, arrogant. That's how I'd describe him. Definitely not someone to be taken seriously as a leader.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I just saw the clips on TV today. Taft comes across as a shrill whiner. He doesn't have the class to lead our province. Stelmach was respectable, but not assertive. Mason was typically boring. Hinman was impressive, concise and to the point. Unfortunately I don't think he did enough to attract votes or for people to take him seriously.

The big winner? Stelmach because he didn't lose. The big loser? Taft. He is such an annoying little brat. And he needs to learn to shut his mouth while others are talking. Disrespectful, rude, arrogant. That's how I'd describe him. Definitely not someone to be taken seriously as a leader.

I think the WRAP boss came off pretty good for a rookie. Ed has been in the limelight for a while, so has the head dipper, and they came off pretty good, but the Liberal boss was kinda smarmy, sorta used cart salesman demeanor.

The Premier had to look good, thats his job. I don't think he looked all that good, and he didn't come across as all that smart. I think the dipper displayed courage and conviction. Taft really wan't to come off as looking compassionate, I think he came close but just missed the mark. The WRAPer did a really good job of making the point that he didn't trust any of the politicians to count the money and certainly thought citizens could decide how to spend their money better than the government.

I would give the WRAP the best marks for the debate, Liberals in second, Tories in third with the dippers coming in last.

[oreodontist]

Debate?

[Hydraboss]

According to what I saw, the term "debate" was used very loosely.

[oreodontist]

I just think we were meant to be one nation.

Meant?

By what? A god, aliens,some great spirit? Canada disn't exist as a nation a couple hundred years ago and won't resemble one a hunded years from now. There is no pre-ordained 'meant'.

Edited February 23, 2008 by oreodontist

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Meant?

By what? A god, aliens,some great spirit? Canada disn't exist as a nation a couple hundred years ago and won't resemble one a hunded years from now. There is no pre-ordained 'meant'.

Nothing is in fact carved in stone. The nation of Canada is a confederation of provinces that are supposed to be equal. The demographics alone prevent the equality that is advertised. Without an elected Senate to balance regions with populations we can never achieve the equality we are ENTITLED to. That is the reason I became a separatist in the first place. Put aside all of the politics and partisan spin and the reality of the inequity is blinding.

[oreodontist]

I'm not an Alberta separatist but also not a Canadian nationalist. Identification with 'the state' will seem as quaint in a couple generations as identification based on relgion was a few centuries past. The concept of 'Canada' and most nations will diminish and eventually be secondary level of identification. Already a lot of European have duel residency and even here in Calgary, neighbors on one side of us spend as much time in China than Canada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I'm not an Alberta separatist but also not a Canadian nationalist. Identification with 'the state' will seem as quaint in a couple generations as identification based on relgion was a few centuries past. The concept of 'Canada' and most nations will diminish and eventually be secondary level of identification. Already a lot of European have duel residency and even here in Calgary, neighbors on one side of us spend as much time in China than Canada.

The days are numbered for the current system of things. The trend is toward corporate governance. We will revisit the class structured society of the past, and the ranks of the poor shall grow to the point of revolution.

[Bayman35]

Meant?

By what? A god, aliens,some great spirit? Canada disn't exist as a nation a couple hundred years ago and won't resemble one a hunded years from now. There is no pre-ordained 'meant'.

Apparently you didn't understand the context in which this was said. I was referring to the debate in a seminar class we had about the founding fathers of this country and if they had meant Canada to be a country that was more federal in nature or more provincial in nature. I myself believe we were "meant" to be a more federal nation. A couple of hundred years ago Alberta was fur-trading Hudson's Bay Company land and nothing more. really became a nation in what 1776, do you think it will be a nation in 100 years? That debate the other night suggested nothing "although I do like how our esteemed Wildrose leader made it seem like the other parties were out to round up your seniors and children and ship them off somewhere. I found all of them about as inspiring as a head injury. The way that is structured it is almost pre-ordained that nobody will come out a winner. I can't stand the way Graham T. from the journal just sucks right up to the Liberals like a fiend, one pillowy soft question after the next. To say that Alberta politics is bereft of inspiring leadership would be an understatement for ALL parties. For someone recently moved here, watching that debate might have made you want you stay at home election day. Although I will say I like the idea of childcare being put forward by both the Liberals and ND's. Capping the cost of childcare is one idea that came out of Quebec that I like.

[Bayman35]

Apparently you didn't understand the context in which this was said. I was referring to the debate in a seminar class we had about the founding fathers of this country and if they had meant Canada to be a country that was more federal in nature or more provincial in nature. I myself believe we were "meant" to be a more federal nation. A couple of hundred years ago Alberta was fur-trading Hudson's Bay Company land and nothing more. really became a nation in what 1776, do you think it will be a nation in 100 years? That debate the other night suggested nothing "although I do like how our esteemed Wildrose leader made it seem like the other parties were out to round up your seniors and children and ship them off somewhere. I found all of them about as inspiring as a head injury. The way that is structured it is almost pre-ordained that nobody will come out a winner. I can't stand the way Graham T. from the journal just sucks right up to the Liberals like a fiend, one pillowy soft question after the next. To say that Alberta politics is bereft of inspiring leadership would be an understatement for ALL parties. For someone recently moved here, watching that debate might have made you want you stay at home election day. Although I will say I like the idea of childcare being put forward by both the Liberals and ND's. Capping the cost of childcare is one idea that came out of Quebec that I like.

Meant to say "America really became a nation in what 1776..."

[Hydraboss]

Although I will say I like the idea of childcare being put forward by both the Liberals and ND's. Capping the cost of childcare is one idea that came out of Quebec that I like.

That's right! Because I should be paying for everyone else's kids for as long as I live. Socialist crap like that used to get left at the border, but it seems to be getting harder to plug the leaks.

edit:sp

Edited February 25, 2008 by Hydraboss

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Such policies as that are supported by a great many citizens. Save the ideological crap for when it is relevant. The people don't give a left or a right about the concerns of spin doctors when it costs them money to do something. They want assistance with child care whether the government was socialistic or capitalistic.

Alberta is way to the right compared to the rest of Canada and our newest fringe party, The Wildrose Alliance Party calls the PC's lefties. Only in Alberta could one say that and make it stick.

[Bayman35]

That's right! Because I should be paying for everyone else's kids for as long as I live. Socialist crap like that used to get left at the border, but it seems to be getting harder to plug the leaks.

edit:sp

Thats right Hydrant Boss there is more and more of us coming in and there is to pee on your parade and there is NOTHING you and your fascist capitalist buddies can do about it, as more easterners come in the more we will reach into your pockets. (Isn't that the stereotype?) Ralph said those eastern bums didn't he) Such a wonderful statement most people like yourself make, "what about me, I am the most important thing on earth" My god I had $32,000 in taxes taken from me last year and I couldn't care less and would gladly pay more if it meant funding a program where god forbid would allow both parents the opportunity to have a career. Oh and hydro those ideas are no longer at the border they are right at your front door and here we come a pounding!!!

[fellowtraveller]

Alberta is way to the right compared to the rest of Canada and our newest fringe party, The Wildrose Alliance Party calls the PC's lefties. Only in Alberta could one say that and make it stick.

Is it really that far right?

Our government spends more per capita on such socialist mainstays as universal healthcare than any other province. Alberta has far less privatization of health care than BC, Quebec or Ontario.

Similar situation for education , where the public system is strong, very strong.

The two together account for 80% of the total budget. How right wing is that?

[Bayman35]

Is it really that far right?

Our government spends more per capita on such socialist mainstays as universal healthcare than any other province. Alberta has far less privatization of health care than BC, Quebec or Ontario.

Similar situation for education , where the public system is strong, very strong.

The two together account for 80% of the total budget. How right wing is that?

Probably because those provinces don't have all those ancient dead critters under the ground that we do. Since it sits at $100.00 a barrel roughly it would be tough not to be spending more. I believe that all three provinces you mentioned are being ran by the Liberal party right now and low and behold that political windsock is showing to be bought off by private initiatives even more then the tories. Hard to believe a Liberal can talk out of both sides of their mouthes but it does happen. This is exactly why I like to deal with Tories, I know where they are coming from and although reaching common ground is more difficult I know the person sitting across from me. The Liberals are politically spineless and waiver on everything .

[Bayman35]

Love how the "Alberta Clipper" pipeline issue almost snuck under the radar in this election and then ended up on the front pages this past weekend. More raw bitumen headed to the American midwest for refining, amazing. So instead of creating hundreds of jobs and making the profits here in Alberta we ship it in its rawest form down to the states s they can make the money and jobs off our oil!!!!! Amazing that people here are letting this happen and that the Tories are rubber stamping this!!!!

[fellowtraveller]

Probably because those provinces don't have all those ancient dead critters under the ground that we do. Since it sits at $100.00 a barrel roughly it would be tough not to be spending more. I believe that all three provinces you mentioned are being ran by the Liberal party right now and low and behold that political windsock is showing to be bought off by private initiatives even more then the tories. Hard to believe a Liberal can talk out of both sides of their mouthes but it does happen. This is exactly why I like to deal with Tories, I know where they are coming from and although reaching common ground is more difficult I know the person sitting across from me. The Liberals are politically spineless and waiver on everything .

Having plenty of money does not oblige the AB government to follow these socilist tenets so fiercely and loyally. In fact, the opposite is true. Money always means more options are available. So why would this far right wing' govt do that?

Unless of course the 'far right 'label is a big pile of steaming turds invented by those a lot further left?

[Bayman35]

Having plenty of money does not oblige the AB government to follow these socilist tenets so fiercely and loyally. In fact, the opposite is true. Money always means more options are available. So why would this far right wing' govt do that?

Unless of course the 'far right 'label is a big pile of steaming turds invented by those a lot further left?

The odd thing is that the Alberta government is spending all this money and where is it going? You are saying it is going to "socialist tenets" yet I don't see the cost of education going down, don't see infrastructure improving, don't see childcare improving, don't see healthcare improving? Where the hell am I getting my bang for my socialist buck?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The province needs to fund a multi-billion dollar pension liability. Once that is taken care of then in fact the province is debt free. That is where money needs to go right now.

As far as the government being either left or right winged, only a fool would question which side of the equation the PC Party of Alberta will sit upon. They are not left, but they are not far enough right for many rednecks in my province. Those folks are about to find out that they are being reduced in their numbers. The WRAP folks just broke the 10% level, at the expense of the right wing PC's. The Liberals now hold 31% and that means trouble for the PC Party. The undecided voter will determine the outcome of this election if they choose to participate. Even if they don't, the PC government will likely be reduced to a minority due to the vote splitting effect from the right wingers. It is even possible that the Liberals could from a minority government if the current sink in Tory fortunes continues at the current rate.