Bush: We should have bombed Auschwitz

[M.Dancer]

As opposed to NO logic whatsoever... Rail lines and industry are two totally different things. Rail lines are easily repaired; factories, refineries, etc. not so easily, if at all.

Oh, well, why?--because it's true?

No because showing that you don't know what you are talking about is too easy and a waste of time.

[kengs333]

Raids might have been carried out from Russian bases. The RAF used a Russian base for one of their daylight attacks on Tirpitz.

Extremely unlikely.

[kengs333]

No because showing that you don't know what you are talking about is too easy and a waste of time.

Oh, right, that old stand by. Well, I'll tell you what--there are a number of interesting books you may want to read about the movement of inmates from POW and concentration camps at the end of the war, that suggest what I'm arguing probably would have been the case.

[M.Dancer]

Oh, right, that old stand by. Well, I'll tell you what--there are a number of interesting books you may want to read about the movement of inmates from POW and concentration camps at the end of the war, that suggest what I'm arguing probably would have been the case.

I'm sure. And by now I bet you have read all the amazon.com reviews and are a quarter way to understanding them enough to passably pretend you've read them.

[kengs333]

Let them? They foorced them march on the roads.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=...duleId=10005143

Say thank you M.Dancer for improving my slack and idle mind

Yeah, now find the link that says that they were marched on important roadways for the movement of troops and supplies.

[kengs333]

I'm sure. And by now I bet you have read all the amazon.com reviews and are a quarter way to understanding them enough to passably pretend you've read them.

You're the one who needs to read them, not me. I know more about WWII than you ever will.

[DogOnPorch]

Railyards and such were only high priority targets for the 8th Airforce just before D-Day. Aircraft factories, oil production centres and such were generally on the top of the list. U-Boat pens as well...even though they were very tough nuts to crack.

Although it was more or less easy enough to repair a rail line, by 1944, the Germans had a hard time finding locomotives to move troops and basic supplies...the SS had a significant number set aside for the Final Solution, the Russian Front swallowed up a good chunk of the rest, leaving only the scantest amounts for other major fronts. By then though, tactical Allied airpower made most train travel next to impossible except during the darkest of nights.

This greatly influenced Rommel's defence of the Western Wall who decided due to tactical airpower that the Allies would need to be fought on the beach rather than inland due to his forces inability to move freely.

-----------------------------------------------

Long before winter came the chances of capturing Moscow had been diminished owing to the repeated delays in the advance that were caused by bad roads, and mud.

---Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt

Edited January 14, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Shows what you know about Canada at the time. Britain was at war, so was the Empire. American, however, was too cowardly to join in the fight against facism--I wonder why...?

"American" spent a lot of time kicking the "Empire" in the ass too...years before Germany. Your Empire has fallen.

[Wilber]

Extremely unlikely.

\

From the RAF's own history.

The two attacks which preceded the successful one of November 12th were both made by RAF Bomber Command. On September 15th, 1944, Nos 9 and 617 Squadrons, operating from Yagodnik near Archangel in Russia, attacked the Tirpitz, but were prevented from making accurate bombing runs by a smoke screen which surrounded the vessel.

617 was the Dam Buster squadron.

[Wilber]

I must say that I am quite amazed by this thread. It blows me away that there are people who get uptight at a suggestion the Allies should have tried to do more to slow down the death camps just because it was Bush who made it. Very sad.

[kengs333]

"American" spent a lot of time kicking the "Empire" in the ass too...years before Germany. Your Empire has fallen.

You mean the War of 1812? LOL. At the time, Britain was engaged in the Napoleonic War. North America was a side show, and still the Americans couldn't win the war.

[M.Dancer]

I must say that I am quite amazed by this thread. It blows me away that there are people who get uptight at a suggestion the Allies should have tried to do more to slow down the death camps just because it was Bush who made it. Very sad.

I only take umbrage at someone calling Bush an idiot for wishing that they could have. He isn't the first to say this, he won't be the last. Had the death camps been widely known the political pressure would have made it happen and the rationale would have been formed. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

[bush_cheney2004]

I must say that I am quite amazed by this thread. It blows me away that there are people who get uptight at a suggestion the Allies should have tried to do more to slow down the death camps just because it was Bush who made it. Very sad.

But completely consistent with other warped incentives and Bush bashing. Historical context is thrown out the window. I can't wait to read the thread about Hiroshima and Nagasaki a la Bush.

[kengs333]

\

From the RAF's own history.

617 was the Dam Buster squadron.

Ugh. Where to begin with this one. First of all, much of the problem lay on the Russian side, as to whether they would actually co-operate; the landing of damaged Allied bombers on Russian territory itself was an issue with the Russian. Secondly, Auschwitz wasn't floating on water somewhere in Norway, rather was situated in the heart of Europe; it's a whole different situation. Thrid, like I said, the RAF did not engage in daylight strategic bombing raids, which is what the raid on Auschwitz would have had to have been.

[Wilber]

I only take umbrage at someone calling Bush an idiot for wishing that they could have. He isn't the first to say this, he won't be the last. Had the death camps been widely known the political pressure would have made it happen and the rationale would have been formed. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

Don't know about you but some of the stuff posted on this thread doesn't exactly make me proud to be a Canadian.

[kengs333]

But completely consistent with other warped incentives and Bush bashing. Historical context is thrown out the window. I can't wait to read the thread about Hiroshima and Nagasaki a la Bush.

Yes, that's an interesting point. The Allies were, on one hand, supposed to bomb Auschwitz to stop the killing of helpless people, yet dopping nukes and firebombing cities was perfectly well within the bounds of acceptable warfare.

[kengs333]

Don't know about you but some of the stuff posted on this thread doesn't exactly make me proud to be a Canadian.

I feel the same sometimes when people make pro-gay (marriage) arguments.

[bush_cheney2004]

You mean the War of 1812? LOL. At the time, Britain was engaged in the Napoleonic War. North America was a side show, and still the Americans couldn't win the war.

The "American" won something far more valuable than that war, or any other. And that's why your Empire has fallen. Not to worry, the UK remains America's closest ally.

[Wilber]

I feel the same sometimes when people make pro-gay (marriage) arguments.

The idea of gay marriage outrages you as much as the massacre of 6 million innocents?

[bush_cheney2004]

The idea of gay marriage outrages you as much as the massacre of 6 million innocents?

I guess....it just gets more bizarre. Many of those killed were "gay".

Edited January 14, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[kengs333]

The "American" won something far more valuable than that war, or any other. And that's why your Empire has fallen. Not to worry, the UK remains America's closest ally.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Tony Blair was American's "closest ally," not the UK.

[kengs333]

The idea of gay marriage outrages you as much as the massacre of 6 million innocents?

What about the other 4 million or so...?

We're talking about the bombing of Auschwitz, not our sense of outrage over the killing of millions of innocent people by the Nazi regime.

You made a general statement about being ashamed of being Canadian, I merely stated that I do too at times. That's all.

[kengs333]

I guess....it just gets more bizarre. Many of those killed were "gay".

So were many of those responsible for the killings. Even MORE bizarre!!!

[Wilber]

We're talking about the bombing of Auschwitz, not our sense of outrage over the killing of millions of innocent people by the Nazi regime.

How do you separate the two? Would you not be outraged enough to do anything you thought might work to prevent or at least mitigate to some degree what was going on there? As the article said, there were many who advocated bombing at the time. Bush didn't just dream it up.

[Rue]

. It's sad that this issue still has to be used for political agendas by certain people. Not to mention the fact that the discussion again excludes mention of all of the other victims.

Read what you write Keng. You show with the above words that your intent was to use this topic to advance a political agenda. As usual the very next sentence after the one you accuse others of engaging in, you engage in.

Bush's comments have nothing to do with non Jewish victims of the holocaust and for you to raise it shows once again what your agenda is, to use a topic, in this case Bush's topic, to do what? What is your point now Keng trying to now suggest this discussion is unfair to "other" victims?

Your transparency Keng should be obvious to anyone who reads your comments.

You want to raise a debate to suggest the camps couldn't have been bombed then do so. Interestingly your arguement for this when you finally did try justify your original comment was convaluted. You on the one hand restated after denying it, that you felt it was not possible from an operational point of view.

On that you are absolutely wrong. The air operations that would have been required to engage in bombing either or both the railway tracks and camps could have easily been added to the other air sortes and all historians are now unanimously agreed the concern was not one of military logistics or air support at all and never was.

The real issue was the political issue of killing innocent vicitims in the camps. And no Keng despite your attempts to use this issue to engage in division it was not as you infer an attempt to put Jews out of their misery at the expense of other victims.

The debate as to bombing the camps took into consideration everyone being tortured and dying in the camps not just Jews and so your transparent comment that this current discussion us unfair to other victims is pure b.s.

This was an issue with no answer. On the one hand bombing these camps would have prevented even more people from being gassed and tortured, on the other hand it would have killed innocent people. Either way, innocent people would die. It was a Catch 22 and you missed this entire point precisely Keng because your agenda was to assume there was an obvious answer and Bush was an idiot for showing compassion.

Bush's comment was rhetorical not literal. His wondering out loud and comment he made is simply a comment all leaders find themselves faced with.

As for some of you other posters who feel they can relate this to Bush's other policies on Iran, or Iraq, you are taking seperate issues and trying to make them all one in the same and by so doing you do what Keng wants, for you to miss the original simple meaning, and turn it into an opportunity to express negativity.

Bush's policies as to Iraq, Iran, e tc., have nothing to do with the issue he was talking about. When you blur them together you simply confuse the issues and dettract from the importance of each issue.

It could very well be some of you find Bush a cold blooded killer and murderer because he endorsed bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then say so without relating it to the issue of whether Aushwitz should have been bombed. Limit it to Bush's policies as to Iraq, etc. The fact you think he may be wrong about Iraq, Iran, etc., doesn't mean he could not say what he said about Aushwitz.

You are doing exactly what Keng lectures people not to do and what he does-use one issue to advance another agenda, which in Keng's case is to call Bush an idiot and now try suggest to talk about whether the camps should have been bombed "ignores other victims" a couched reference for suggesting victims other then Jews.