Broken Justice - these infuriating cases have it all

[Wilber]

The minute their actions impact another.

Then why do you blame society whenever their actions do impact others? Apparently Creba's death was society's fault, not the creep's who shot her.

No, just stop criminalizing vice.

Which means? Are you saying that someone who kills you trying to steal your wallet or invading your home is somehow worse than someone who guns you down trying to kill another drug dealer?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Wilber

[Wild Bill]

Which means? Are you saying that someone who kills you trying to steal your wallet or invading your home is somehow worse than someone who guns you down trying to kill another drug dealer?

Why do you need to make a moral judgement? Simple logic says that someone will always be stealing wallets but drug violence would disappear if drugs were legalized and the incredibly high profits disappeared.

[eyeball]

Then why do you blame society whenever their actions do impact others?

Please don't you put words into my mouth too, I already have my hands full with people doing that.

Apparently Creba's death was society's fault, not the creep's who shot her.

No, the creep's are responsible for killing her too.

Which means? Are you saying that someone who kills you trying to steal your wallet or invading your home is somehow worse than someone who guns you down trying to kill another drug dealer?

Like I said, would you please stop putting words in my mouth?

What I'm saying is that vice shouldn't be criminalized because when it is it creates more creeps and makes things worse. This attempt by the state to morally engineer society is back-firing and cross-firing badly. Innocent people are needlessly dying and being injured as a result.

[Wilber]

What I'm saying is that vice shouldn't be criminalized because when it is it creates more creeps and makes things worse. This attempt by the state to morally engineer society is back-firing and cross-firing badly. Innocent people are needlessly dying and being injured as a result.

There you go again, maintaining society somehow makes these people do what they do. Sorry, they make those decisions all by themselves. They are no different than any other person who commits a violent crime out of greed. Stop making excuses for their actions.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Wilber

[eyeball]

There you go again, maintaining society somehow makes these people do what they do.

Nope, you've clearly misunderstood what I said if that's what you think. The choices they make do.

Sorry, they make those decisions all by themselves. They are no different than any other person who commits a violent crime out of greed.

I agree 100%.

Stop making excuses for their actions.

I didn't. I simply pointed out the likelihood that so many exist in the first place is directly related to the criminalization of vice. That is not their fault, it's our's.

[Wilber]

I didn't. I simply pointed out the likelihood that so many exist in the first place is directly related to the criminalization of vice. That is not their fault, it's our's.

This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. We are all responsible for the choices we make. While there are many reasons a person may become addicted, some of them understandable, there is only one reason to lead people into addiction and kill each other for the ability to do so. Greed. So stop making excuses for the slimeballs. They do it because they are pricks, period.

[eyeball]

This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. We are all responsible for the choices we make. While there are many reasons a person may become addicted, some of them understandable, there is only one reason to lead people into addiction and kill each other for the ability to do so. Greed. So stop making excuses for the slimeballs. They do it because they are pricks, period.

Greed is certainly known to attract pricks, now who or what is responsible for choosing to do things that inflate profits to the extent that they are?

Certainly not me, you perhaps?

Edited August 28, 2010 by eyeball

[kimmy]

Remember Jane Creba....well here's some sentences that were passed down. I believe this report is wrong - I think these guys will walk out free men without serving a day. Statutory release is pretty well automatic after serving two thirds of your sentence. The old 2 for 1 credit has slashed more than 8 years off their 12 year sentences - and that probably means they'll walk.

Link: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100826/national/boxing_day_shooting_1

What's most astounding to me is that it took almost 5 years from crime to sentencing.

-k

[Wilber]

Greed is certainly known to attract pricks, now who or what is responsible for choosing to do things that inflate profits to the extent that they are?

Certainly not me, you perhaps?

Doesn't really matter, should we legalize every crime that promises fat profits just because they attract pricks?

[Wilber]

What's most astounding to me is that it took almost 5 years from crime to sentencing.

-k

Why is it astounding?

[eyeball]

Doesn't really matter, should we legalize every crime that promises fat profits just because they attract pricks?

I said stop criminalizing vice, not legalize crime. The difference between these two should be self-evident.

Committing criminal acts while meeting the demand for vice is clearly wrong, I never said it wasn't, but I think the onus to supply vice in a peaceful rational way has to come from the society demanding it.

I mean society had to demand oil be delivered in double-hulled ships knowing full well that oil companies would never change their ways on their own.

[Wilber]

I said stop criminalizing vice, not legalize crime. The difference between these two should be self-evident.

Committing criminal acts while meeting the demand for vice is clearly wrong, I never said it wasn't, but I think the onus to supply vice in a peaceful rational way has to come from the society demanding it.

I mean society had to demand oil be delivered in double-hulled ships knowing full well that oil companies would never change their ways on their own.

Since when has society demanded vice? Sorry mate but I refuse to be put in the same category as your average doper or john. I think a majority of people would say the same.

Hmm, double hulled ships are the same as crack cocaine. It's all clear to me now.

[kimmy]

Why is it astounding?

I guess "astounding" was the wrong word. But the speed at which our courts work is appalling.

-k

[Argus]

I guess "astounding" was the wrong word. But the speed at which our courts work is appalling.

-k

On many levels, not just that of gross inefficiency.

I have taken a couple of criminology courses. One lasting lesson from one of them was the deterrent value of punishment. Now as I remember the text, the deterrant rests upon the certain, swift punishment for an action which is illegal. What we've done is removed the certainty and the swiftness. Not only are most criminals not caught for most crimes (In Ottawa, for example, only something like 23% of crimes are solved). If you are actually caught, well then you enter a legal game of negotiations and manoeuvring which might, eventually, wind up in some form of punishment, but in the meantime you just carry on.

By the time you actually do go to jail, assuming you do, the immediacy of the connection between your punishment and your crime are lost. You blame bad lawyers, or bad luck, or whatever. What ought to happen is that you should be sentenced within a day of your arrest. After all, the vast majority of arrested criminals never go to trial. Their cases are determined by negotiation between the two attornies involved. If this were done more efficiently we could have the sentence much more closely associated with the crime. In addition, of course, we need to pry through the red tape governing rules of evidence to allow for swifter trials for those who do go before a judge.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Argus

[msdogfood]

OK how mane people have passed the canadian bar exam????.

I I have not!!

I ask because one has to have an understanding of the law Before one can judge it!!!!.

[eyeball]

Since when has society demanded vice? Sorry mate but I refuse to be put in the same category as your average doper or john. I think a majority of people would say the same.

I should have said the demand within society for vice. Since when hasn't there been a demand?

Hmm, double hulled ships are the same as crack cocaine. It's all clear to me now.

No, the oil and the cocaine are analogous, you're certainly never going to get people to stop using either. Given that it makes sense to at least reduce the harm associated with using them.

[Bonam]

No, the oil and the cocaine are analogous, you're certainly never going to get people to stop using either.

No, they really aren't. Oil is the fuel which powers our industrial civilization and enables our standard of living. Cocaine just makes people high. That you see no difference between oil and drugs just speaks to how much of a Neanderthal you are.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, they really aren't. Oil is the fuel which powers our industrial civilization and enables our standard of living. Cocaine just makes people high. That you see no difference between oil and drugs just speaks to how much of a Neanderthal you are.

Exactly....what does he think his boat runs on? Cocaine?

[eyeball]

Well, considering how addictive oil is said to be and how many innocent people get shot in all the fighting over it...the analogy to dope is bang on.

In any case I was talking about how society meets the demand for drugs, dangerously or safely. Using gangsters seems really dangerous. So does using single hull tankers to deliver oil.

Kapeesh?

[bush_cheney2004]

....In any case I was talking about how society meets the demand for drugs, dangerously or safely. Using gangsters seems really dangerous. So does using single hull tankers to deliver oil.

Sounds like you are more dependent on the "ecosystem" compared to many others. So now the self serving comments make sense. Nothing wrong with single hull tankers either....

[eyeball]

Nothing wrong with single hull tankers either....

The Hell's Angels are just a bunch of good ol boys too...

[guyser]

By whom, other judges? I believe most judges try to do a good job but when they reach a point where the public feels they have lost touch with the needs of society, they need to listen. A justice system that does not have the confidence of the people to deliver justice is in big trouble. The next step is people lose respect for the law itself.

Yes other judges, all of whom (ok all might be a bit much since every facet has its dicks) are accountable to a higher body.There is not other way to police them as it were.

Society is not well prepared to deal w the complexities a judge faces, and your rights as guaranteed by a judge is proof of that. (yes i know it isnt perfect)

[Argus]

OK how mane people have passed the canadian bar exam????.

I I have not!!

I ask because one has to have an understanding of the law Before one can judge it!!!!.

I'm not an engineer or an architect but I think I can figure out that when buildings and bridges collapse out of the blue the guy who put them up made a mistake. Similarly, I can recognize that airplanes should not run into mountains and that ships ought not to be sinking into the waves.

I can recognize what when a law doesn't work, too. I don't need a law degree to do so.

[guyser]

I'm not an engineer or an architect but I think I can figure out that when buildings and bridges collapse out of the blue the guy who put them up made a mistake.

Sorry, but that is incorrect and gets to the root of the problem. Re-read what you wrote and you'll see it.

Similarly, I can recognize that airplanes should not run into mountains and that ships ought not to be sinking into the waves.

I can recognize what when a law doesn't work, too. I don't need a law degree to do so.

As for the airplane and ships scenario, we can agree it shouldnt "X".....but why is the more impoortant aspect and we may or may not have the capabilities to understand it.

Not to mention we are talking about people and a possible incarceration.