Ron Paul, whether he wins or not, helped change/revitalize conservatis

[Brain Candy]

We laugh at independents because we know that most Americans have taken one side or the other, and use that idea set as common ground with others to drum up public support for their businesses, personalities, films and books. You can convince anyone you’re a friendly good guy by being liberal and permissive, or convince those experienced enough to be cynical that you’re a realist by drawing a clear line between what’s acceptable and not. It’s more than a political view; it’s a definition of your personality, and a reflection of the audience to which you want to appeal. In a more cynical statement, we want liberal neighbors and conservative bankers and lawyers, because those are the personalities who either leave us alone or work carefully with our money, respectively.

With this in mind, Paul’s success is nothing short of amazing. Candidates like Nader and Badnarik appeal to a small few who are already alienated, but scare off most voters because the single-minded single-solution approach they have taken does not address a range of problems. Paul took basic conservative values, and applied to them a traditionalist twist as interpreted through the mechanism of modern libertarianism. He is both recognizably part of something we would like, which is a solid and moral conservative leader, and a bridge to a new way of thinking about government.

How Ron Paul Changed Conservatism

Edited January 8, 2008 by Brain Candy

[Michael Hardner]

Thankfully, we still have a mainstream media that will prevent a fringe candidate such as this from succeeding.

There are many reasons to not support him:

- His policies, if enacted, would turn the economy upside down

- He seems very cozy with White heritage types

- He puts himself into various guises, depending on what is popular. He is currently an anti-war candidate, but in the past he appealed to militias

- Linux

[Michael Hardner]

Oh, and this thread: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....mp;#entry284260

[Brain Candy]

He is not cozy with the white heritage people but because he wants to eradicate illegal immigration thus those pale faces see

less illegals=less mexicans=good. Alot of blacks also support him due to his drug policy (which i think is correct, lock people up for hurting others, not potentially hurting themselves). Maybe he is wrong on the specifics but he exposed a hell of a lot of people to new ways of thinking and for that his presidential bid will be worthwhile.

[buffycat]

Michael, repeating lies over and over doesn't make them true!!

Heck even the New York Times had to recant their article wrt the 'White Supremacists' lies!!

Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist” Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul. The original post also repeated a string of assertions by Bill White, the commander of the American National Socialist Workers Party, including the allegation that Paul meets regularly “with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review and others” at a restaurant in Arlington, Va. Paul never attended these dinners, according to Benton, who also says that Paul has never knowingly met Bill White. Norman Singleton, a congressional aide in Paul’s office, says that he met Bill White at a dinner gathering of conservatives several years ago, after which Singleton expressed his indignation at the views espoused by White to the organizer of the dinner. The original post should not have been published with these unverified assertions and without any response from Paul.

So... is that the best you can do to smear this honourable man?

So what that some person who holds some rather distasteful ideals donated some money to his campaign? I'm sure there are lots of individuals who hold equally vile views who have donated to others, heck I imagine some of the more frothing rednecks on this board have donated money to even more 'mainstream' candidates!! For instance - who has the JTF donated money to?? Hmmmm - these dudes were calling for the assassination of not only Paul - but his supporters as well!! How nice! I'd also like to mention that there is alot of controversy surrounding 'Stormfront' itself - many believe it is simply an 'agent provocatuer', invented so to say to sew derision and divide. Sort of like how the majority of 'Heritage Front' members were undercover agents (all the 'top' brass anyway!). Can't instill fear if there is no boogeyman can you? So, get right on inventing one!!

Pathetic attempt at smearing one of the only honest candidates in either party.

As I said before - read what the man has actually said - listen to HIS words - not those of the corporate lackeys who are only interested in keeping the status quo of FEAR FEAR FEAR mongering!!

I have been reading Paul's snippets for almost seven years now - long before any aspirations of running for the presidency. While not always agreeing in principle with some of his views, he has always been consistent, a straight talker and has never stooped to the mindless insults so common amongst his current rivals.

I really think you need to start thinking for yourself and not listening to the gatekeepers at places like Fox[who has been caught censoring AP items wrt Paul - which is illegal) and Daily Kos (gag).

Just for fun, here is a pretty good article from Haaretz wrt Paul and his stance on aid to Israel:

Ron Paul to Haaretz: Israel can get by without American aid

[kengs333]

Ron Paul can say what he want, but should he for some inexplicable reason get elected president, the reality of having to run a government and a country will basically nullify all of his "outside-the-box" thinking. It'll just be more of the same, just as it will be for whoever does get elected. It boggles the mind that Americans get so convinced every time there is an election that their electoral process will get it right this time.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, buffycat, I read the 'Ron Paul Newsletter' from 1993 and it was a pack of racist propaganda. See the link above.

Where are the lies ?

I said he's very cozy with white heritage types, and you quoted this:

Stormfront, which describes itself as a “white nationalist” Internet community, did not give money to Ron Paul’s presidential campaign; according to Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Paul’s campaign, it was Don Black, the founder of Stormfront, who donated $500 to Paul.

Paul didn't give back the $500 did he ?

So where is the lie ?

I have yet to see anything about him that is 'honourable'. He seems to have convinced a lot of people to ignore his questionable past, and certainly has a major 'hit squad' on the internet posting as much good news as possible about him.

The truth is, he let the racist comments in the 'Ron Paul Newsletter' stand for years before repudiating them. Honourable ? At best, that would be described as 'stupid'. At worst, 'complicit'.

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe he is wrong on the specifics but he exposed a hell of a lot of people to new ways of thinking and for that his presidential bid will be worthwhile.

Here is a 'DIRECT QUOTE' from the RON PAUL newsletter:

"I think we can safely assume that 95% of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal. "

Wrong on the specifics ?!?

Even assuming his assertions about the newsletter are correct, he is not smart enough to run for president.

[Guest American Woman]

Ron Paul isn't even in the running. It's as simple as that. I have a difficult time figuring out why you're so enamoured of him, Buffy. What specifically, not generally, do you think he would accomplish that has you so excited? As an American, I think he would be a disaster for our country. Just for starters, at a time when our debt is sky high, our schools are underfunded, and we are in need of funding for a national healthcare program, he wants to eliminate the income tax. How could anyone possibly see that as a good thing?

Edited January 8, 2008 by American Woman

[Brain Candy]

Ron Paul isn't even in the running. It's as simple as that. I have a difficult time figuring out why you're so enamoured of him, Buffy. What specifically, not generally, do you think he would accomplish that has you so excited? As an American, I think he would be a disaster for our country. Just for starters, at a time when our debt is sky high, our schools are underfunded, and we are in need of funding for a national healthcare program, he wants to eliminate the income tax. How could anyone possibly see that as a good thing?

Yet he also wants to eliminate spending on fighting foreign wars and end allowing illegals to stay and become huge tax burdens, is it possible these things could balance out?

So he has said some insensitive comments in the past, what in his policies could be considered harmful to minorities who arent illegals?

[Guest American Woman]

Yet he also wants to eliminate spending on fighting foreign wars and end allowing illegals to stay and become huge tax burdens, is it possible these things could balance out?

You seriously think all of our income tax revenue goes towards fighting foreign wars and supporting illegals? There's no way ending those two areas of spending would balance things out.

[Michael Hardner]

Thanks, AW, for your sane input on this. You must be from Michigan, I swear !

So he has said some insensitive comments in the past, what in his policies could be considered harmful to minorities who arent illegals?

What comments are you referring to ? Are you referring to his Ron Paul newsletter comment that 95% of black men in DC are criminals ?

Edited January 8, 2008 by Michael Hardner

[Brain Candy]

what in his policies could be considered harmful to minorities who arent illegals

[moderateamericain]

what in his policies could be considered harmful to minorities who arent illegals

While not a huge proponent of Ron Paul I have for a long time believed we needed a 3 party system for balance. I really liked what Fred Thompson had to say but I think John Mccain will end up with the necessary votes to be the republican candidate this year. Honestly I have never liked the Clinton's and Im undecided on Baraka

[Brain Candy]

While not a huge proponent of Ron Paul I have for a long time believed we needed a 3 party system for balance. I really liked what Fred Thompson had to say but I think John Mccain will end up with the necessary votes to be the republican candidate this year. Honestly I have never liked the Clinton's and Im undecided on Baraka

Baraka im definately a bit iffy on, Kuchinich might be the best choice in that camp.

[Michael Hardner]

Unbelievably - the MSM is breaking the newsletter story - years after it was public knowledge.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/10/pau...ters/index.html

[bush_cheney2004]

Unbelievably - the MSM is breaking the newsletter story - years after it was public knowledge.

Well...yea...what did Dr. Paul think was gonna happen? It's old news with a new spin...here is NPR's version:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/01/ron_..._become_ca.html

[Rue]

Michael, repeating lies over and over doesn't make them true!!

Buffy its clear you support Ron Paul because he tells you what you want to hear about Zionism. But clearly you have made no attempt to research who he is and what he stands for other then the above. What I find strange is that while you come on this forum and deny he received $500 from the head of Stormfront he and his finance manager have admitted they did and its public record.

Its public record he stated he would not give the money back. Interestingly Paul has returned money from others and when asked to make a statement distancing himself from Stormfront and White Willy Williams the head of the largest Neo-Nazi party who is his largest inter-net supporter/organizer in Tennesseehe refused.

Buffy you seriously should take a look at his positions and who supports him and why and no its not as simple as jhe criticizes Israel so he must be o.k. This is a man who denies the theory of evolution and wants creationism put back in class as well as Christian prayers. This is a man against a woman's choice to have an abortion and who strongly believes everyone should own a gun and that there should be no federal tax system. He is pro capital punishment under state criminal laws and yet at the same time says the federal government shouldn't use it. He is against the US participating in ANY international organization and in particular, the international courts, the UN, NAFTA and NATO.

This is a man who said the only role the US or any country should play in the genocide going on in Darfur is to issue a moral statement.

This is a man who has accused gays of being privileged and is against same sex marriages.

This is a man who does not believe the state should tax anyone and is against welfare and has openly stated it is not the state's responsibility to look after the poor and vulnerable.

This is a man who strongly lobbies to repeal Federal Food and Drug laws that would enable anyone for any reason who wants to sell alternative medical cures to be able to sell them.

This is a man who wants the IRS abolished, the Federal Reserve Bank abolished and has made it clear he believes Christianity should not be seperated from the state.

This is a man who issued newsletters referring to blacks as inferior and more likely to commit crimes and at first denied he wrote them saying someone else put their signature on them and he n ever saw them, then admitted he approved of them.

This is a man who is fully aware of the white supremacists supporting him and has admitted he will take their support.

This is a man who wants to build huge security fences across the Mexico and Canadian borders, deport illegal immigrants and is against amnesty.

This is a man who stated there is a world conspiracy to create a one world government and that they are trying to kill him.

This is a man who stated it is the duty of every American to fight their government, and if need be with weapons, if they feel the law is wrong.

Before you get too indignant Buffy its time you look to see whose bandwago you have jumped on.

The problem Buffy is he attracts people like you because he throws out many policies and statements like shit in the wind hoping it will stick. And it does.

You want to tell everyone how honest he is Buffy, then research how he has handled the issue as to racism, his white supremacist supporters, his views on abortion, evolution, international aid to third world nations.

At least start with Wikapedia and look at how he has voted over the years and what his positions are. They are public record.

Leave it to you to try reduce this to an anti-Israel issue.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

Here are specific references to indicate what Buffy claims are lies have been documented as fact.

1. To find out what Ron Paul's positions are one can go to;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

2. In regards to Mr. Paul's racrism, it is a fact he is against affirmative action and voted against the Civil Rights Bill of 1964. It is a fact his campaign office admitted accepting $500 from the head of Stormfront and would not return it. It is a fact he openly accepts support from extreme Christian right wing groups and David Duke and the KKK and other extremists such as; http://www.patriotnetwork.info/Leaders.htm

For an interestings series of inter-net articles on Mr. Paul's relations with white supremacists one can go to;

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archiv...aul-bill-white/

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archiv...on-black-photo/

http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archiv...-thai-expenses/

Here is what a leading Nazi leader says about Ron Paul which you will find in the above references:

"Ron Paul Lies About Lack Of Involvement With White Nationalists

Comrades:

I have kept quiet about the Ron Paul campaign for a while, because I didn’t see any need to say anything that would cause any trouble. However, reading the latest release from his campaign spokesman, I am compelled to tell the truth about Ron Paul’s extensive involvement in white nationalism.

Both Congressman Paul and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others at the Tara Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia, usually on Wednesdays. This is part of a dinner that was originally organized by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis and Joe Sobran, and has since been mostly taken over by the Council of Conservative Citizens.

I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and his aides there, and been invited to his offices in Washington to discuss policy.

For his spokesman to call white racialism a “small ideology” and claim white activists are “wasting their money” trying to influence Paul is ridiculous. Paul is a white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet because of his political position.

I don’t know that it is necessarily good for Paul to “expose” this. However, he really is someone with extensive ties to white nationalism and for him to deny that in the belief he will be more respectable by denying it is outrageous — and I hate seeing people in the press who denounce racialism merely because they think it is not fashionable.

Bill White, Commander

American National Socialist Workers Party“

Here are other references to Mr. Paul's extremist connections;

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=...15-4532a7da84ca

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=...15-4532a7da84ca (copy of newsletter)

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/man-of-hour.html

I did not rely on the following web-site and instead went to web-sites whose information can be tested from going to neutral sources but this web-site is the kind of web-site I found particularly for Buffy to have fun with;

http://ronpaulexposed.com/

The fact is to deny Paul is an extremist with links to white supremacists who he is aware of is dumb.

And the question is, and I ask this to Buffy-if he is the honest, progressive man you claim he is-why does he associate himself with these racists and why does he hold classic right wing views?

Tell me Buffy do you agree with his positions or just the one you think makes him anti-Zionist?

How do you explain all his other views and the people he shakes hands with and accepts money from?

Tell me Buffy, you against abortion, affirmative action, the theory of evolution? Do you think the UN should be abolished and the poor should look after themselves? Well?

What part of the above are lies?

I would be interested to know Buffy if what you are saying is you are comfortable supporting a politician who sees no need to distance himself from Nazis?

As for his newsletters with racist content, I even provided you a reference with the exact copy of one. His initial defence was he didn't know who signed it.

Perhaps you may want to research the kinds of comments he directed at his political opponent Barbra Jordan from Texas when he accused her of using her race and gender to get votes and accused her of having a phony British accent.

This is a nasty racist Buffy who you claim to be your Messiah. Enjoy.

[Brain Candy]

I think then the question is how much can you trust a person like Bill White? I think the last time he was in the news was for praising the killers at columbine.

And this donation scandle... why hasn't any other candidate been scutinized for not checking the background of donators who gave something less then 1000? Id bet youd find some nazis supporting the other anti immigration candidates.

[Carinthia]

Regarding Ron Paul - if something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Carinthia

[bush_cheney2004]

Regarding Ron Paul - if something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

It was never too good, just more of the political flotsam that goes with the process. The Ron Paul's of the world are neither rare or unusual. LaRouche, Wallace, LeMay, etc. are all in the tapestry of American politics. Can't say I blame any admirer on either side of the border....it's their right to do so.

Ron Paul is a multi-term member of the US House....i.e. lots of people voted for him.

Edited January 11, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Carinthia]

It was never too good, just more of the political flotsam that goes with the process. The Ron Paul's of the world are neither rare or unusual. LaRouche, Wallace, LeMay, etc. are all in the tapestry of American politics. Can't say I blame any admirer on either side of the border....it's their right to do so.

Ron Paul is a multi-term member of the US House....i.e. lots of people voted for him.

I have paid little attention to Ron Paul. The fact that his popularity sprung up mainly through the Internet prompted me to think "fad". Rue has provided links to the true Ron Paul that any of his Internet followers could have researched.

[buffycat]

Rue - cut it out with your BS posts, which twist and smear whatever I have (or oftentimes - have NOT said).

My respect for Mr. Paul has zippo to do with Zionism Rue, so you can stuff that into your pipe and haul away.

What I DO admire about Paul is his stance on Foriegn policy (non-interventionism), his desire to tackle the criminal Federal Reserve and his love of the US Constitution. He is an individualist - a true libertarian.

Now, as far as your pathetic attempts at character smear (typical of a certain ilk of folks - who FEAR any change to the status quo) how about listening to HIS actual words:

http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/898.html

Here he is Wolf Blitzer - countering the BS smears of racism which is purely a political attack. (Someone is afraid).

In the meantime - your darling Hitlerly is cosy with murderers and thugs, and drug dealers too!! Not to mention some of the really nasty business practices (tainted blood?!).

So, whatever to all you fearmongerers - either listen to what he actually says - or as usual take the msm talking heads' point of view and go back to your grazing.

(By the way Rue, by cutting off foreign aid to Israel - AND the Arab states - it frees Israel up to do whatever she darn well pleases without having to beg to Daddy US$$$.)

[Michael Hardner]

Sorry, buffy, but you can't just 'admire' the good of a man and ignore the bad.

These 'smears' also happen to be facts. He's dead in the water politically.