Omar Khadr

[Peter F]

"should Omar first be found guilty of some sort of crime?" I thought fighting with the enemy, taking up arms against your side, would be all the proof that you would need that he was a traitor by definition. So I'm wondering if taking up arms against Canada is in itself considered a crime.

Who say's he was fighting with the enemy? Considering his age at the time of his alleged crime, he could very well have been a non-combatant within the compound they found him.

[Muddy]

Apparently fighting against us and our allies when a Canadian citizen is no longer a crime. If it was the whole family at the least would have been sent back to Egypt. Someone mentioned the Serbian /Canadian who with others went back to Serbia to fight against Canadian forces. No charges were ever layed against these ungrateful so called Canadians of convenience. But this attitude goes back to Trudeau who cheapened Canadian citizenship by not demanding loyalty to Canada first.

[guyser]

. But this attitude goes back to Trudeau who cheapened Canadian citizenship by not demanding loyalty to Canada first.

referring to dual citizenship?

[Sully]

I don't think I missed the point. I'm simply wondering if being a traitor is committing a crime in Canada, since that's the post I was responding to: "should Omar first be found guilty of some sort of crime?" I thought fighting with the enemy, taking up arms against your side, would be all the proof that you would need that he was a traitor by definition. So I'm wondering if taking up arms against Canada is in itself considered a crime.

So I'm still wondering if being a traitor is a crime in Canada; if taking up arms against Canadians and/or Canada's allies in a war is considered traitorous.

As far as I know TREASON still has meaning in Canada, but with an impotent justice system that Canada employs, I hope that the US keeps him and keeps him locked up indefinitely.

It's funny that if this kid were a white or black kid and went on a mall shooting spree, a lot people would be asking "Where were the parents in all this" and try to determine the WHY???. Yet we know exactly how the parents feel and their values and thats why I can alleviate my conscience and be rest assured that this young POS (piece of s&%t) would grow into an old POS and I appreciate that he is spending his days behind bars. And for all those who feel he is denied due process, if he ever sees daylight then invite him to stay at your place cause I do not want a POS like that in my neighbourhood. I hope none of you live close to South Vancouver.

Lastly I pray that people like this can be stripped of their Citizenship and deported.

[guyser]

Yet we know exactly how the parents feel and their values and thats why I can alleviate my conscience and be rest assured that this young POS (piece of s&%t) would grow into an old POS and I appreciate that he is spending his days behind bars. And for all those who feel he is denied due process, if he ever sees daylight then invite him to stay at your place cause I do not want a POS like that in my neighbourhood. I hope none of you live close to South Vancouver.

Lastly I pray that people like this can be stripped of their Citizenship and deported.

All well and good , until it happens to you , then you will be screaming, problem is no one will be able to hear you.

Give him justice in court and with facts. If it is all true then the punishment will fit the crime.

But can we please stop with the "impotence" of our criminal system? It is so old and so untrue.

[Guest American Woman]

I now realize Omar Khadr was of the age where he would be considered a "child soldier" when he was taken prisoner. As such, he should have been treated accordingly. It sounds as if he were tortured and treated horribly. There is no excuse for that (regardless of his age). After reading about his background, I do feel for him. He was raised by his father to fight the west. I don't know how anyone can deny that. Omar was born in Canada, but he and his siblings were being raised to die for the Islamic cause; and apparently that includes the time they spent living in Canada.

....Khadr, Omar's father, always said he did not want to die in bed. He wanted to be killed. When his children were very young, he told them, "If you love me, pray that I will get martyred." Three times he asked Omar's older brother Abdurahman to become a suicide bomber. It would bring honor to the family, he said. Abdurahman declined. Later, when Ahmed sensed that Abdurahman's faith was weakening, he told him, "If you ever betray Islam, I will be the one to kill you."

Omar and his brothers attended madrassahs and Islamic schools. His mother and two older sisters covered their bodies and completely veiled their faces. At home, the Khadr children were warned that the purity of Islam was being compromised, from within and without. The quest to repurify it diminished to insignificance everything else in life. Purity was the simple measure by which good and evil were distinguished, and the means of destroying evil were equally simple. The Khadr children were raised to serve a purpose. Their fealty was sounded every day.

Rolling Stone has a really good article about him; quite long, but well worth the read.

[Muddy]

referring to dual citizenship?

[/quote

First of all this deplorable family didn`t even go back to fight for their previous homeland. That was Egypt. They went off to join Binny and his happy gang to fight us,their fellow Canadians. Then they come back here to get babyed back to health all the while calling the country down. Why are there no treason charges against these ungratefull religious fanatics? Why not the Serbian guy who fought against us? Something smells!

As for dual citizenship, how does one be loyal to two countrys or cultures who are at war?

[Muddy]

A good post American Women , but what proof do we have that he was or is being tortured in Git Mo?

Instead of blaming his incarceration on the Americans ,should not the blame be on fanatical Islam? They created the monster who should have been playing Hockey or Baseball and doing what other of his peer group were doing here in Canada.

[DogOnPorch]

Welcome, Muddy.

I find myself agreeing with everyone of your posts in a very strong way. Well said.

Khadr = Enemy

------------------------------------------

Once I was a son of a farmer, and I became prime minister. Maybe one day you will become one.

---Jean Chrétien to Abdullah Khadr: 1996

[capricorn]

I now realize Omar Khadr was of the age where he would be considered a "child soldier" when he was taken prisoner. As such, he should have been treated accordingly.

As I understand, juveniles at Guantanamo were secluded from the adults. How else could he have been treated other than simply being released and allowed to join his family in Canada.

It sounds as if he were tortured and treated horribly.

Tortured? That's the first I hear of Khadr being tortured. Do you have a source?

After reading about his background, I do feel for him. He was raised by his father to fight the west. I don't know how anyone can deny that. Omar was born in Canada, but he and his siblings were being raised to die for the Islamic cause; and apparently that includes the time they spent living in Canada.

The press is holding Kadhr up as the poster boy for human rights and I think you have bought into it. Do you think this indoctrination to kill westerners could be reversed? He is no longer 15 years old and if anything, his incarceration has reinforced his hatred and determination to get even. As a matter of fact I believe he said so in an interview not too long ago. You don't appear to fear anything from him so I take it you would not object to having Omar as your next door neighbour.

If the Americans choose not to prosecute him, I would like the American authorities to dump Khadr exactly where they found him in Afghanistan. IMO most Canadians would not object in the slightest. I would rather he resume his fight against us from Afghanistan than right here in my country.

[Guest American Woman]

As I understand, juveniles at Guantanamo were secluded from the adults. How else could he have been treated other than simply being released and allowed to join his family in Canada.

From the article I cited: After the invasion of Afghanistan, President Bush decided, in violation of the Geneva Convention, that any adolescent apprehended by U.S. forces could be treated as an adult at age sixteen.

Tortured? That's the first I hear of Khadr being tortured. Do you have a source?

The article I linked to in my last post. Link

The press is holding Kadhr up as the poster boy for human rights and I think you have bought into it. Do you think this indoctrination to kill westerners could be reversed? He is no longer 15 years old and if anything, his incarceration has reinforced his hatred and determination to get even. As a matter of fact I believe he said so in an interview not too long ago. You don't appear to fear anything from him so I take it you would not object to having Omar as your next door neighbour.

I can't see where I implied that I don't have anything to fear from him. I said I feel for him, and I do. I said I think he was mistreated, and he was. I doubt you'd be ok with one of your troops being treated the way he was and I know I wouldn't condone it for American captives. As for a child being raised the way he was, how can anyone not feel for the child?

I doubt his indoctrination could be reversed at this point; mostly for the very reason you state. The way he was treated would most definitely reinforce his hatred. As for 'determination to get even,' it doesn't sound like it so much any more. It sounds as if he's been beaten down. There were several occassions when he just wanted to die. Can't say that I blame him. But I think being prosecuted and sentenced would be better than the endless captivity he's been enduring.

If the Americans choose not to prosecute him, I would like the American authorities to dump Khadr exactly where they found him in Afghanistan. IMO most Canadians would not object in the slightest. I would rather he resume his fight against us from Afghanistan than right here in my country.

I can understand how you wouldn't want him in your country. It sounds to me as if his father used Canada-- fighting his fights in Afghanistan, coming back to Canada for medical treatment when he was injured; then going back as soon as he was physically able, and released when he was captured after the Canadian government requested his release. I find all of that a bit difficult to understand. If anyone could explain it to me, I would appreciate it.

It's all in the article I cited.

Edited January 9, 2008 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

Are you saying the teaching of religious beliefs is child abuse? Should Canada move away from the broad promise of freedom of religion that encourages such abuse and only permit religious institutions that are in line with Canadian values?

The child didn't have freedom of religion. He was born into a family that automatically labelled him with their religion and told him all his life that all other ways are wrong and would lead to horrible suffering in the afterlife and potentially punishment in this one. That's not freedom of religion, he was never free to practice whichever religion he felt he most identified and neither are most other children.

Still, what he did was inexcusable. I have no sympathy for murderers, no matter what their age.

[Rue]

The legal process as to how he is being detained is seriously flawed but I do not think he is being tortured. One could argue his detention and trial process is legallly defective but to say someone is standing there physically torturing him directly I believe is a misrepresentation.

I also think one of the legal issues which is not necessarily age specific is how one defines a terrorist. Since terrorists are not conventional soldiers who want to be treated as such I think we have to understand all the conventional legal laws as to war (conventions) were drafted assuming people were soldiers in uniforms.

Today's terrorist wants both worlds. They want to act like criminals and violate all laws, but then when caught demand they be protected by any and all laws.

Seems to me while we do not want to become the terrorists we are detaining we also have to have up-dated laws that specifically state who tries a terrorist and what standards we use.

I personally do not believe a 15 year old gets a pass on terrorism simply because they are 15.

I think in this case some are arguing he was 15 so he was brain-washed and he didn't have full capacity to understand what he was doing since he was young and brain washed.

While I appreciate such sentiment from a practical point of view terrorists recruit children and we have to ask ourselves what do we do with them when they are caught. You want to release them back into society? Do you?

Want them in your neighbourhood going to school with your children? Want one screwing your daughter?

The sentiment of wanting to save and rehabilitate such people is noble but the practical realities bring in a host of problems. From what I gather this "child" terrorists family is still quite unrepentant and will continue to be an influence on him.

[Guest American Woman]

The legal process as to how he is being detained is seriously flawed but I do not think he is being tortured. One could argue his detention and trial process is legallly defective but to say someone is standing there physically torturing him directly I believe is a misrepresentation.

Did you read the article I cited?

I also think one of the legal issues which is not necessarily age specific is how one defines a terrorist. Since terrorists are not conventional soldiers who want to be treated as such I think we have to understand all the conventional legal laws as to war (conventions) were drafted assuming people were soldiers in uniforms.

Today's terrorist wants both worlds. They want to act like criminals and violate all laws, but then when caught demand they be protected by any and all laws.

Seems to me while we do not want to become the terrorists we are detaining we also have to have up-dated laws that specifically state who tries a terrorist and what standards we use.

I personally do not believe a 15 year old gets a pass on terrorism simply because they are 15.

I'm not saying to give him a pass. Again, did you read the article? If we were to have treated any of our worst serial killiers the way this 15 year old has been treated we'd be considered uncivilized and barbaric. Why is it acceptable for the detainees at Gitmo to be treated this way? And so many of them are innocents, caught up in the tide. It's horrible.

I think in this case some are arguing he was 15 so he was brain-washed and he didn't have full capacity to understand what he was doing since he was young and brain washed.

That's the way it was. In fact, I've read some articles that say he wasn't even in the compound in a military capacity, but as an interpreter. But whether he was there as an interpreter or a fighter, this is where his father took him. This is what he was raised to be. From the time he was born, this is what was instilled in him. It's all he knew.

While I appreciate such sentiment from a practical point of view terrorists recruit children and we have to ask ourselves what do we do with them when they are caught. You want to release them back into society? Do you?

They definitely recruit children. Evidently orphans are particularly targeted. But there's a huge difference between trying someone and giving them a sentence under humane prison conditions, and what he and so many others have been enduring at Gitmo. But wouldn't it be nice if we cared enough about those orphans who are recruited to give them food and shelter before al Qaeda got hold of them? Ironcially, it would likely be cheaper for us to do that than to fight them and keep them in detention centers like Gitmo.

Want them in your neighbourhood going to school with your children? Want one screwing your daughter?

I don't think they go around "screwing" western girls. And no, I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood. I've never even suggested such a thing. In fact, I've questioned why Canada allows his family to live there; to keep coming back after what they've done.

The sentiment of wanting to save and rehabilitate such people is noble but the practical realities bring in a host of problems. From what I gather this "child" terrorists family is still quite unrepentant and will continue to be an influence on him.

Again, I don't understand Canada's allowing them to stay there.

Edited January 9, 2008 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

The legal process as to how he is being detained is seriously flawed but I do not think he is being tortured. One could argue his detention and trial process is legallly defective but to say someone is standing there physically torturing him directly I believe is a misrepresentation.

I also think one of the legal issues which is not necessarily age specific is how one defines a terrorist. Since terrorists are not conventional soldiers who want to be treated as such I think we have to understand all the conventional legal laws as to war (conventions) were drafted assuming people were soldiers in uniforms.

Today's terrorist wants both worlds. They want to act like criminals and violate all laws, but then when caught demand they be protected by any and all laws.

Seems to me while we do not want to become the terrorists we are detaining we also have to have up-dated laws that specifically state who tries a terrorist and what standards we use.

I personally do not believe a 15 year old gets a pass on terrorism simply because they are 15.

I think in this case some are arguing he was 15 so he was brain-washed and he didn't have full capacity to understand what he was doing since he was young and brain washed.

While I appreciate such sentiment from a practical point of view terrorists recruit children and we have to ask ourselves what do we do with them when they are caught. You want to release them back into society? Do you?

Want them in your neighbourhood going to school with your children? Want one screwing your daughter?

The sentiment of wanting to save and rehabilitate such people is noble but the practical realities bring in a host of problems. From what I gather this "child" terrorists family is still quite unrepentant and will continue to be an influence on him.

Rule of law comes first before rule of emotion - primaryly hate - sure he was a bad boy and helped pops harrass the invaders in the homeland - maybe he even tossed the granade. So what! If someone was invading rural Alberta, and your 15 year old was out with you and he did what he could to thwart the intruders - you would exault him and brag at the local hick bar for the next twenty years what a great boy you have. Just remember as far as one mans terrorists is another mans voting block. Look at the creeped out liberals that would go to the east end of Toronto and cuddle up to the Tamil Tigers - getting thousands of votes - then suddenly they are a "terrorist" group - I for the life of me have never heard a Tamil say - lets harm Canada - so if they are not out to get us then how can they be terrorist - they do not terrifiy my..in fact their barbers do a nice job on my hair and beard.

Getting back to the point of the "child soldier" - 15 is a boy - a child that does not have a clue - and I will repeat when Harper refered to him as a man - well ...made my skin crawl to think how stupid our Prime Minister is - does he not do the math - that the kid was 15 that he did not do this "serious offence" yesterday! We are a nation of barbarians - Frankly you guys out there in Alberta make the American right look like ameteurs - I am really shocked - kind of like a real Ku Klux Klan operating out there - to think I was considering moving out there to be with my own kind - came to the realization that you are not really my kind - you are to extreme - and extremist are terrorists - why do you get such glee out of terrorizing what was a 15 year old child - or at least approving of his detention? I have lost respect for that place of higher learning you all hail from out there in Lethbridge - what a waste of tax dollars to have educated and created men of cruelty - lots of money but no heart or mind for that matter - I really don't give a damn for the Muslim kid down in Cuba - but I do give a damn about how un-civilized you are - I had no idea that there is not one single Christian left in Alberta - what was God's country is no more - just cruel money grubbers.

[guyser]

referring to dual citizenship?

First of all this deplorable family didn`t even go back to fight for their previous homeland. That was Egypt. They went off to join Binny and his happy gang to fight us,their fellow Canadians. Then they come back here to get babyed back to health all the while calling the country down. Why are there no treason charges against these ungratefull religious fanatics? Why not the Serbian guy who fought against us? Something smells!

As for dual citizenship, how does one be loyal to two countrys or cultures who are at war?

It was a simple question. Were you referring to dual citizenship?

[Guest American Woman]

A good post American Women , but what proof do we have that he was or is being tortured in Git Mo?

Instead of blaming his incarceration on the Americans ,should not the blame be on fanatical Islam? They created the monster who should have been playing Hockey or Baseball and doing what other of his peer group were doing here in Canada.

The article I cited tells of his encarceration at Gitmo. There's no reason/excuse for that kind of treatment, so I blame the way he's being treated during his incarceration on my country. I blame his parents for the way he was raised. They created what he became.

[Oleg Bach]

The article I cited tells of his encarceration at Gitmo. There's no reason/excuse for that kind of treatment, so I blame the way he's being treated during his incarceration on my country. I blame his parents for the way he was raised. They created what he became.

The kids father was wacko - you don't drag your son back in time and expect him to wage a war that has no purpose other than to maintain family pride. Putting that aside - they should just send the kid home and show the world that the west has compassion and forgiveness - show some class.

[Peter F]

I can understand how you wouldn't want him in your country. It sounds to me as if his father used Canada-- fighting his fights in Afghanistan, coming back to Canada for medical treatment when he was injured; then going back as soon as he was physically able, and released when he was captured after the Canadian government requested his release. I find all of that a bit difficult to understand. If anyone could explain it to me, I would appreciate it.

It's all in the article I cited.

The Father never returned to Canada after 1990, Omar never returned since 1995.

From the original US commission charge sheet of 2005 (edited by me):

Omar born 19 sep 86 in Toronto

1990 moved with family to Pakistan

1994 Father arrested and imprisoned in Pakistan, Omar and siblings return to Canada to

live with thier grandparents

1995 Omar returned to Pakistan

1996 Omar moves with family to Afghanistan

1996-2001 Omar and family travel throughout Afhanistan and Pakistan

2002 Omar recieves weapons training in Afghanistan

27 Jul 2002 Omar captured in Afghanistan

original charge sheet (pdf)

[noahbody]

The child didn't have freedom of religion. He was born into a family that automatically labelled him with their religion and told him all his life that all other ways are wrong and would lead to horrible suffering in the afterlife and potentially punishment in this one. T

That's how religion works. Parents raise their children in their religion. If you wish to interfere with the religious upbringing of a child, you are acting against the concept of freedom of religion.

[Oleg Bach]

The Father never returned to Canada after 1990, Omar never returned since 1995.

From the original US commission charge sheet of 2005 (edited by me):

Omar born 19 sep 86 in Toronto

1990 moved with family to Pakistan

1994 Father arrested and imprisoned in Pakistan, Omar and siblings return to Canada to

live with thier grandparents

1995 Omar returned to Pakistan

1996 Omar moves with family to Afghanistan

1996-2001 Omar and family travel throughout Afhanistan and Pakistan

2002 Omar recieves weapons training in Afghanistan

27 Jul 2002 Omar captured in Afghanistan

original charge sheet (pdf)

So his father was arrested and imprisoned in Pakistan? He must have been a real bad guy. As we all know that is the most sound and civilized nation on earth and corruption and abuse of certain groups is unheard of.

"Omar recieves weapons training" ? That should convict the little brat for sure - wonder if the Bush's buddies the Saudis pay for and provided the "weapons" for the boys training? - thinking back I use to take my two daughters out to the ravine behind the house when they were 5 and 6 years old to "train" them to fire the 22 semi-auto - they could hit a can from a long way off - although the youngest kept getting his finger caught in the trigger guard. They learned safety - and respect - and years from now if they every needed to fire a gun - it will not be some strange and frightening exerience - I wonder if that makes me a mini-training center for scarorists?

Omar - was just a dumb kid - what are we to do? Maybe we could go around slapping every kid that is stupid or every adult that is dumb - we could punch - I feel that there would be so many in the world that would need punishing that in the first day - our arms and hands would fall off from over use - seriously - we have terrorist at Jane and Finch firing their Glocks in broad day light - lets go arrest them and lock them up! That would make more sense - Omar - you can tell by looking at the original photo - was a stupid young boy with a very angry and hateful father...do we put the sins of the father on the son? Do we persecute George Bush because his grandfather sold weapons to the Nazis? NO -

[noahbody]

Interrogators put a bag over his head and held him still while attack dogs leapt at his chest.

Who exactly did jeff tietz get this story from Khadr or Red X?

[Oleg Bach]

Who exactly did jeff tietz get this story from Khadr or Red X?

That's always astounding about torture of any kind - it's always some jerk from a poor family that does the torturing while it is payed for and condoned by some person from a rich and privldged family in a position of authority - I figure if you are to weak and cowardly to torture a man yourself - then buying the "pleauser" - should be outlawed - torture is money talking - especially the America version of it - you don't see some poor bum saying to the millionare politican "Hey buddy - wanna make a few bucks and torment the wino panhandling on my terf?" - Torture---is the bored mans sex I suppose - it really bugs me when I see a rich political type in the states say - Torturing a child in front of his parents is a good thing and really works well to get "information" that will "save lives" - give me a break!

To imprison a child of 15 in harsh conditions - is torture - an adult can think things though and adjust and adapt - Omar must have layed their and cried for a long long time - If he is guilty of anything - he did not have the vision to see what the outcome of his action would be - where as an adult usually does and is fully responsible....we have to draw the line somewhere as far as protecting the young - no matter what - there is an old eastern saying regarding tolerance - "I do not love him because he is good, but because he is my little child".....mercy or grace - is class - grace literally means - "The undeserved mercy of God" - It is a noble attribute - but we have no nobles here.

[DogOnPorch]

Oleg Bach: Omar - was just a dumb kid - what are we to do?

The little f**ker tossed a grenade at a medic. The medic's commrades wanted to just put a bullet into him right there and then. But instead they fixed the little terrorist up and sent him to GitMo. Still alive. Let's see what the enemy does with captives, shall we??

http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=183600

Unarmed even...well done, oh brave warriors of Islam.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to think about one shot. One shot is what it's all about. The deer has to be taken with one shot. I try to tell people that - they don't listen.

---Robert De Niro, The Deer Hunter

[Oleg Bach]

The little f**ker tossed a grenade at a medic. The medic's commrades wanted to just put a bullet into him right there and then. But instead they fixed the little terrorist up and sent him to GitMo. Still alive. Let's see what the enemy does with captives, shall we??

http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=183600

Unarmed even...well done, oh brave warriors of Islam.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to think about one shot. One shot is what it's all about. The deer has to be taken with one shot. I try to tell people that - they don't listen.

---Robert De Niro, The Deer Hunter

OK execute the brown eye Arab spawn of satan - by the way - what the hell were all those medics and commrades doing in a land that has not theirs to venture on anyway - everyone forgets that sending a bunch of blue eyed devils into the land of the dark bearded brown eyed ones may cause a fight - where are the visionaries? Rather than bicker here about Omar - what say you give him the lethal injection - and be rid of this fathers son - a kid that was loyal and respectful to his dad and obedient - in this nation - sons dispise their fathers of the most part - I suppose that gives us the high ground - that we are a nation with no loyalty to family or friends - and the nation with honour and respect is the one lower down the food chain..... How would you like it if we were invaded by China - and your kid was tossing explosives to repel them? Well done oh brave young warriors of secualarist utlitarian corporatizm Canada - at least the kid put up a fight - our kids are useless and will give in to who ever pays them or buys them a beer and a video game.