Don't Take Your Poppies To Court

[jefferiah]

The Poppy is an accepted symbol of Rememberance Day. And it is worn by just about every Canadian, and the holiday is not religious, nor does it belong to a certain group. Rememberance Day is a Canadian Holiday! And in a Canadian courtroom one should be able to wear it proudly. Perhaps next she will declare that the Canadian flag offends certain people in the courtroom.

[cybercoma]

Sorry, jefferiah and Wilbur... I understand the poppy and Flanders' Field is from WWI, and I was being a little unclear when I was contending that the WWII Veterans should have special significance when remembering.

Anyway, Mennonites may be non-violent, but they would have to be the most obtuse group of people in Canada if they were to suggest that we should not have gotten involved in World War I or World War II.

[jefferiah]

Sorry, jefferiah and Wilbur... I understand the poppy and Flanders' Field is from WWI, and I was being a little unclear when I was contending that the WWII Veterans should have special significance when remembering.

Anyway, Mennonites may be non-violent, but they would have to be the most obtuse group of people in Canada if they were to suggest that we should not have gotten involved in World War I or World War II.

Hey dont be sorry, Cybercoma. I understood you full well and there is no problem with what you said. I was trying to point out that you already knew that.

[jbg]

He said this because he feels World War II is especially important. Not that I think he is overly concerned. He simply pointed out that the Poppy is not a symbol of both wars. But rather I think it has become a Canadian symbol of war vets in general. Anyways small potatoes.

I am a Jew. You'd expect me to agree with whoever thought WW II was more important. For your country, I don't. Here's why.

Canada was forged into a nation in the fires of WW I. Its army proved that Canada was a fierce defender of freedom, and certainly outclassed Britain's. The US was forged into a nation with the Revolutionary and Civil Wars (War of 1812 also but it was a draw). Vimy Ridge and for Newfoundland Beaumont Hamel did that job for your great country.

Thus, WW I's Canadian symbol, the poppy, stands for Canada's fight for world freedom. That fight was not won on UN committees; it was won in heroic battle.

[Wilber]

Sorry, jefferiah and Wilbur... I understand the poppy and Flanders' Field is from WWI, and I was being a little unclear when I was contending that the WWII Veterans should have special significance when remembering.

Anyway, Mennonites may be non-violent, but they would have to be the most obtuse group of people in Canada if they were to suggest that we should not have gotten involved in World War I or World War II.

No problem

[August1991]

Justice Woolcott recognized that wearing a poppy in a courtroom is essentially a political statement, made by a police constable whose line of work also entails the potential use of force and violence to uphold the law. Not all Canadians feel comfortable with that political view, nor should they, as she correctly pointed out to the officer in question.

By that logic, the judge should forbid wearing a tie in her court since ties represent the patriarchy. Does she forbid gold watches because they symbolize wealth?

It is absurd to try to create a symbol-neutral environment. A courtroom should be a place without distractions and a poppy is hardly a distraction. Is an American flag in a lapel considered a distraction too? This judge has simply substituted political correctness for an ability to judge critically. It happens.

Canada was forged into a nation in the fires of WW I. Its army proved that Canada was a fierce defender of freedom, and certainly outclassed Britain's. The US was forged into a nation with the Revolutionary and Civil Wars (War of 1812 also but it was a draw). Vimy Ridge and for Newfoundland Beaumont Hamel did that job for your great country.

That's an extremely WASP view of Canadian history and it's even humourous given that Newfoundland didn't join Canada until 1949.

The French in North America arguably became a nation in 1759 and then assumed the name "Canadian". Through most of the 19th century, English-speaking people used the term British North America and considered themselves as subjects of the British crown and members of the British Empire. In English, the government in Ottawa was referred to as the Dominion government (as opposed to the French term: gouvernement fédéral.)

Canadian history has no simple dates or dividing lines. With the exception of the conquest (and some English historians argue that it too was not a radical event), Canadian history is evolution not revolution. Canada is a fundamentally conservative country.

----

The poppy is also a symbol in the UK (http://www.poppy.org.uk/) and in Australia:

This same poppy also flowers in Turkey in early spring - as it did in April 1915 when the ANZACs landed at Gallipoli. According to Australia’s official war historian C.E.W.Bean, a valley south of ANZAC beach got its name Poppy Valley "from the field of brilliant red poppies near its mouth".

Link

John McRae who wrote the poem "In Flanders Fields" was born in Guelph, Ontario.

Edited December 18, 2007 by August1991

[jefferiah]

I am a Jew. You'd expect me to agree with whoever thought WW II was more important. For your country, I don't. Here's why.

Canada was forged into a nation in the fires of WW I. Its army proved that Canada was a fierce defender of freedom, and certainly outclassed Britain's. The US was forged into a nation with the Revolutionary and Civil Wars (War of 1812 also but it was a draw). Vimy Ridge and for Newfoundland Beaumont Hamel did that job for your great country.

Thus, WW I's Canadian symbol, the poppy, stands for Canada's fight for world freedom. That fight was not won on UN committees; it was won in heroic battle.

Well I agree, of course. I don't think it is more important. And I think I may have misrepresented what Cybercoma said, and so perhaps I owe him the apology. I dont think he actually said WW2 was more important. He just said he had reservation because it was a World War 1 symbol alone, but he did not express a great deal of protest over it. You know he was not making it out to be some outrage. And he doesn't strike me as the sort who is usually nitpicking about symbols. And personally I agree that the poppy is a suitable symbol for both wars.

I think we are all in so much unanimous agreement here that we are sort of amicably arguing over the small points.

Edited December 18, 2007 by jefferiah

[cybercoma]

I think my biggest problem is that people were conscripted to war in those days, yet modern day Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have (albeit involuntarily) usurped the image for themselves. I have a problem with a symbol used for us to remember the sacrifice this COUNTRY made to fight for its freedom by forcing our children into service being taken to support voluntary soldiers in political wars.

Conscription scares the hell out of me and I hope we never have to do that again, but you never know and having the poppy as a symbol is the right thing to do -- to remember those who were forced to go to war, whether they agreed with the politics or not.

This is why I don't think the symbol supports war or military action. I think it's a way to honour those who died by being thrown into battle. It is a way of remembering the sacrifices those people made, against their will. It is not meant as an endorsement of war or battle as a way of settling our differences. It is a way of remembering the damage that such conflicts inflicts on us.

Edited December 18, 2007 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Don't apologize to me, I'm not being very clear.

[jbg]

That's an extremely WASP view of Canadian history and it's even humourous given that Newfoundland didn't join Canada until 1949.

Of course I know that. But it's part of Canada now and they also fought heroically. I consider Robert E. Lee an American hero despite his unfortunate choice to fight for the Confederacy rather than try to hold the Union together.

[Wilber]

I think my biggest problem is that people were conscripted to war in those days, yet modern day Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have (albeit involuntarily) usurped the image for themselves. I have a problem with a symbol used for us to remember the sacrifice this COUNTRY made to fight for its freedom by forcing our children into service being taken to support voluntary soldiers in political wars.

Conscription scares the hell out of me and I hope we never have to do that again, but you never know and having the poppy as a symbol is the right thing to do -- to remember those who were forced to go to war, whether they agreed with the politics or not.

This is why I don't think the symbol supports war or military action. I think it's a way to honour those who died by being thrown into battle. It is a way of remembering the sacrifices those people made, against their will. It is not meant as an endorsement of war or battle as a way of settling our differences. It is a way of remembering the damage that such conflicts inflicts on us.

Of the 620,000 Canadians who served overseas in WW1 only 24,000 were conscripts. In WWII only 2500 conscripts served in combat units and of them 69 were killed. In both wars none saw action until the last few months. Conscription has always been a much bigger political issue in Canada (read French English) than anything else.

I can't understand why you would reserve the poppy to remember those who you say were forced to go to war over those who chose to serve their country willingly. Those hundreds of thousands who volunteered allowed those conscripts to remain safely at home until there was little fighting left to be done. If anything, I think you have it backwards.

[Wilber]

I think my biggest problem is that people were conscripted to war in those days, yet modern day Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have (albeit involuntarily) usurped the image for themselves. I have a problem with a symbol used for us to remember the sacrifice this COUNTRY made to fight for its freedom by forcing our children into service being taken to support voluntary soldiers in political wars.

They have usurped nothing. They have volunteered to serve their country and are putting their lives on the line just like the millions of Canadians who have done so in other wars. Just because you happen to see a war as political takes nothing away from the commitment they have made to you and I.

Give them the respect they deserve.

[cybercoma]

The people who fought in the other wars also deserve respect, but I think there are lessons to be learned from WWI and WWII that should never be forgotten, thus those wars deserve some sort of traditional reminder. We use the poppy for that and to have the other wars put on an equal platform with WWI and WWII is disrespectful to what those wars meant and the hell that our soldiers went through there.

[White Doors]

The people who fought in the other wars also deserve respect, but I think there are lessons to be learned from WWI and WWII that should never be forgotten, thus those wars deserve some sort of traditional reminder. We use the poppy for that and to have the other wars put on an equal platform with WWI and WWII is disrespectful to what those wars meant and the hell that our soldiers went through there.

Funny, but I think that you would be hard pressed to find even one veteran of WW2 who would agree that the mission in Afghanistan is disrespectful to what they did. In fact, I think you would find that they are some of the most ardent supporters of the war.

Or you could always go into a local legion and ask them if they are ashamed, but I wouldn't recommend it.

If YOU are ashamed, say so. Don't project your feelings on others.

[Wilber]

The people who fought in the other wars also deserve respect, but I think there are lessons to be learned from WWI and WWII that should never be forgotten, thus those wars deserve some sort of traditional reminder. We use the poppy for that and to have the other wars put on an equal platform with WWI and WWII is disrespectful to what those wars meant and the hell that our soldiers went through there.

Excuse me but where do you get off assigning values according to your own prejudices to people who have given their lives in service of this country? You can have any opinion you want on a particular war but in every case their country asked them to go and they went. That's all you need to know about them.

[cybercoma]

Funny, but I think that you would be hard pressed to find even one veteran of WW2 who would agree that the mission in Afghanistan is disrespectful to what they did. In fact, I think you would find that they are some of the most ardent supporters of the war.

Or you could always go into a local legion and ask them if they are ashamed, but I wouldn't recommend it.

If YOU are ashamed, say so. Don't project your feelings on others.

I never once made any claims about the mission in Afghanistan, nor did I say I'm ashamed that we're over there. I agreed with supporting the US at the time and I agree with helping that nation get back on their feet, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that I support our troops now and have the utmost respect for our veterans today means nothing to what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is that sacrifices made for WWI and WWII should not be diluted and forgotten by assigning the poppy to all veterans of all wars. I'm not saying other veterans should be forgotten, or left out in the cold, all I'm saying is that the poppy should remain a reminder of the World Wars and those sacrifices.

Sorry if my opinion offends you guys, but too bad... I'm entitled to it and I find it a little ridiculous that you're twisting what I'm saying to mean that I don't support the troops now, nor do I support veterans of any other war, when that's not what I said at all.

[Wilber]

I never once made any claims about the mission in Afghanistan, nor did I say I'm ashamed that we're over there. I agreed with supporting the US at the time and I agree with helping that nation get back on their feet, but that's neither here nor there. The fact that I support our troops now and have the utmost respect for our veterans today means nothing to what I'm saying.

All I'm saying is that sacrifices made for WWI and WWII should not be diluted and forgotten by assigning the poppy to all veterans of all wars. I'm not saying other veterans should be forgotten, or left out in the cold, all I'm saying is that the poppy should remain a reminder of the World Wars and those sacrifices.

Sorry if my opinion offends you guys, but too bad... I'm entitled to it and I find it a little ridiculous that you're twisting what I'm saying to mean that I don't support the troops now, nor do I support veterans of any other war, when that's not what I said at all.

You are saying that a symbol which was originaly intended for WWI veterans can also be used for WWII veterans because it suits your prejudice but anyone else who has fought and died for this country deserves the status of "others". Yes I do find that offensive and I would like to be there to watch when you tell a mother who has lost a child in Afghanistan that their kid has "diluted" the memory of WWI and WWII vets. As a matter of fact I would like to be there when you tell that to a WWII vet. I don't think you would like the reaction, but I would.

[M.Dancer]

The Poppy is for all vets and not just Canadian. It is worn in the UK and other commonwealth countries. It's history goes back even further than the first world war......and it is a symbol for all canadians who have been killed in war or in service. Whether they died in Ypres, or Italy, Croatia, Cyprus, Korea or the Golan Heights...

Each November, Poppies blossom on the lapels and collars of over half of Canada’s entire population. Since 1921, the Poppy has stood as a symbol of Remembrance, our visual pledge to never forget all those Canadians who have fallen in war and military operations. The Poppy also stands internationally as a “symbol of collective reminiscence”, as other countries have also adopted its image to honour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/rempoppy/allabout_e.asp

[cybercoma]

I stand corrected, then.