Evangelicals and Witches in Africa

[buffycat]

Well, this is downright sickening, and we have those crazy Christians to thank for it!! Wooo hooo!!

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt

excerpts:

But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.

Some parents scrape together sums needed to pay for a deliverance - sometimes as much as three or four months' salary for the average working man - although the pastor will explain that the witch might return and a second deliverance will be needed. Even if the parent wants to keep the child, their neighbours may attack it in the street.

This is not just a few cases. This is becoming commonplace

The article is rather long, and you may need to pick your jaw up off the floor a few times - but well worth the read.

Fundies are quite simply: NUTS

Mary Sudnad, 10, grimaces as her hair is pulled into corn rows by Agnes, 11, but the scalp just above her forehead is bald and blistered. Mary tells her story fast, in staccato, staring fixedly at the ground.

'My youngest brother died. The pastor told my mother it was because I was a witch. Three men came to my house. I didn't know these men. My mother left the house. Left these men. They beat me.' She pushes her fists under her chin to show how her father lay, stretched out on his stomach on the floor of their hut, watching. After the beating there was a trip to the church for 'a deliverance'.

A day later there was a walk in the bush with her mother. They picked poisonous 'asiri' berries that were made into a draught and forced down Mary's throat. If that didn't kill her, her mother warned her, then it would be a barbed-wire hanging. Finally her mother threw boiling water and caustic soda over her head and body, and her father dumped his screaming daughter in a field. Drifting in and out of consciousness, she stayed near the house for a long time before finally slinking off into the bush.Mary was seven. She says she still doesn't feel safe. She says: 'My mother doesn't love me.' And, finally, a tear streaks down her beautiful face.

Gerry was picked out by a 'prophetess' at a prayer night and named as a witch. His mother cursed him, his father siphoned petrol from his motorbike tank and spat it over his eight-year-old face. Gerry's facial blistering is as visible as the trauma in his dull eyes. He asks every adult he sees if they will take him home to his parents: 'It's not them, it's the prophetess, I am scared of her.'

Sickening... just sickening.

I will now wait for the xtians to come on here and defend this sort of behaviour on the parts of these so called holy men and women.

Frikkin' crazy.

[Higgly]

O man. A gen-u-ine Huckabee!

[buffycat]

O man. A gen-u-ine Huckabee!

LOL!!

While the Huckster is certainly nuts too - I'm not sure if he is a crazy as these folks....

Does he drive a nice mercedes????

[capricorn]

O man. A gen-u-ine Huckabee!

I wonder if he farts. What do you think?

[jefferiah]

Well, this is downright sickening, and we have those crazy Christians to thank for it!! Wooo hooo!!

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt

excerpts:

The article is rather long, and you may need to pick your jaw up off the floor a few times - but well worth the read.

Fundies are quite simply: NUTS

Sickening... just sickening.

I will now wait for the xtians to come on here and defend this sort of behaviour on the parts of these so called holy men and women.

Frikkin' crazy.

Sorry to disappoint you Buffy, but I am not going to defend it. It is sickening.

Yet you say Fundies are the same all over. Have you seen this happen with Canadian fundies or American fundies?

Edited December 16, 2007 by jefferiah

[Drea]

Who gives a crap where the fundies are from?

They are fundamental Christians who are maiming and killing people in the name of Christ.

Muslims across the world are Islamic followers who would do anything to follow the teachings of Allah.

Christians across the world are Christ followers who would do anything to follow the teachings of Jesus.

This is how the rightwing-frothing-at-the-mouth people think:

When a Muslim becomes a fundie and does something henious -- all Muslims are fanatics!

When a Christians becomes a fundie and does something henious -- he is an anomoly, one guy, one-time, never happened before, never will happen again.

Stupid stupid religious freaks.

[Michael Hardner]

When a Muslim becomes a fundie and does something henious -- all Muslims are fanatics!

When a Christians becomes a fundie and does something henious -- he is an anomoly, one guy, one-time, never happened before, never will happen again.

That's what happens, but by using the same line of logic to attribute the 'cause' of this behavior to religion, you're validating that argument.

These are cultural factors, and whether they're Christians, Muslim or tribal isn't the most significant factor.

[jefferiah]

This is how the rightwing-frothing-at-the-mouth people think:

When a Muslim becomes a fundie and does something henious -- all Muslims are fanatics!

When a Christians becomes a fundie and does something henious -- he is an anomoly, one guy, one-time, never happened before, never will happen again.

Stupid stupid religious freaks.

That's weak. Buffy digs up some henoius case in Nigeria and says "See, fundies are the same all over." As if this is the regular behaviour.

Now of course this is a sickening case, there is no doubt about that, and no defense for it. The point is even with this case, muslim fanaticism is still much more widespread and not reduced to an incident here and there. Middle East, Phillipines, Thailand, America, Europe , Britain. That is not to say that all muslims are fanatics Drea, and if that is what you are hearing you are missing the point. The fact is Muslim fanaticism is happening everywhere. And in most cases where it occurs it seems to outdo the fanaticism of others.

Moreover I think Buffy maintains more of an interest in the fact that it was Christians doing this than a deep concern over what was done. I think she is quite pleased about this. "Well, this is downright sickening, and we have those crazy Christians to thank for it!! Wooo hooo!!" she says.

In very many of these cases as well the "anomoly, one guy" thing is actually the truth. Like Mark David Chapman or something like that. But nobody is making that claim with this case. You are acting as if people are, but really you are full of your own pre-conceived notions of how people will respond. Nonetheless, this case (in Nigeria no less) is nothing compared to the fact that Islamic fanaticism has become a concern around the globe. That terrorism has occured on American soil, British soil, all across the Middle East and Asia. And that this heinous crime Buffy has dug up in one small corner of the world (Nigeria) is the type of thing that is quite commonplace in most Islamic nations on a regular daily basis.

Edited December 16, 2007 by jefferiah

[ScottSA]

That's what happens, but by using the same line of logic to attribute the 'cause' of this behavior to religion, you're validating that argument.

These are cultural factors, and whether they're Christians, Muslim or tribal isn't the most significant factor.

As usual, you're only partly right. This episode, for example, is 21st century Nigerian cultural, just as the Salem witch hunts were 17th century American cultural (although in that case something of an aberration, since it had only been common in the 13th century). Islam also has culturally inspired nasties, like female genital mutilation and bagged women.

But the doctrinal difference is, of course, that Christians cannot appeal to the New Testament to validate these actions, while Islam can. Further, this is an isolated case of clearly bad behaviour, which explains why the spoon gagged brigade is eager to jump on it, while the daily death toll of Islam's latest victories (people killed by Muslims in the name of the "prophet") ranges between 10 and hundreds.

There is no equivalency here. Sorry.

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

As usual, you're only partly right. This episode, for example, is 21st century Nigerian cultural, just as the Salem witch hunts were 17th century American cultural (although in that case something of an aberration, since it had only been common in the 13th century). Islam also has culturally inspired nasties, like female genital mutilation and bagged women.

But the doctrinal difference is, of course, that Christians cannot appeal to the New Testament to validate these actions, while Islam can. Further, this is an isolated case of clearly bad behaviour, which explains why the spoon gagged brigade is eager to jump on it, while the daily death toll of Islam's latest victories (people killed by Muslims in the name of the "prophet") ranges between 10 and hundreds.

There is no equivalency here. Sorry.

I would count 'exorcism' that we've seen in such cases as a culturally inspired nasty too.

Your defense seems to be that the fake Christians can't claim to have a theological basis for their actions, while fake Muslims can. I guess if you're insisting that fake Christians can only use the new testament as a basis for their actions, and that Muslims are allowed to pick some passages from their book but not others then you're right.

Still, it seems like a pyrrhic philosophical victory - to claim that the fake Christians were actually MORE fake than the fake Muslims were.

If the matter is to look at root causes, to use an oft-ridiculed phrase, then cultural factors are clearly the dominant predictor here.

As for the isolated case claim, this is laughable. You have continually refused to provide valid statistical reference for your claims, and instead you opt to cut & paste the latest isolated incident as 'proof' that Islam needs to be kept out of Canada.

[ScottSA]

Scott,

I would count 'exorcism' that we've seen in such cases as a culturally inspired nasty too.

Your defense seems to be that the fake Christians can't claim to have a theological basis for their actions, while fake Muslims can. I guess if you're insisting that fake Christians can only use the new testament as a basis for their actions, and that Muslims are allowed to pick some passages from their book but not others then you're right.

Still, it seems like a pyrrhic philosophical victory - to claim that the fake Christians were actually MORE fake than the fake Muslims were.

If the matter is to look at root causes, to use an oft-ridiculed phrase, then cultural factors are clearly the dominant predictor here.

As for the isolated case claim, this is laughable. You have continually refused to provide valid statistical reference for your claims, and instead you opt to cut & paste the latest isolated incident as 'proof' that Islam needs to be kept out of Canada.

What a galloping strawman! Toodles, Mikey.

[Drea]

That's weak. Buffy digs up some henoius case in Nigeria and says "See, fundies are the same all over." As if this is the regular behaviour.

It is the wishful thinking of all religious fundies. Thankfully in North America we have a good many secularists who put "humanity" ahead of "godliness". If you do not agree, then you are not a fundamentalist. And no, I am not calling anyone on this board a fundie so don't start down that road please.

And that this heinous crime Buffy has dug up in one small corner of the world (Nigeria) is the type of thing that is quite commonplace in most Islamic nations on a regular daily basis.

I know that this isn't happening on North American soil but it needs to be told. Christians need to know that this shit is being done in their name and they should be awash in disgust that someone somewhere is maiming children in the name of their saviour.

Right off the bat you say: "...type of thing that is quite commonplace in most Islamic nations on a regular daily basis" as if to deflect the heniousness -- they do it, so others doing it is not so bad. It is bad! Its horrible and should be the topic of every Christian church this morning. Discussing how some people could possibly twist Jesus' teachings into such horrific crap.

We want muslims to do this, we want them to discuss the heniousness of what their fundies are doing, we want it on the top of their minds so that fundies don't have the opportunity to slither in pretending they are moderates. We want them to stand up and denounce what the fundies are doing in the name of their god. If we want them to do this, why the aversion to North American Christians looking other Christian's heniousness in the face and discussing it?

Edited December 16, 2007 by Drea

[ScottSA]

It is the wishful thinking of all religious fundies. Thankfully in North America we have a good many secularists who put "humanity" ahead of "godliness". If you do not agree, then you are not a fundamentalist.

What utter nonsense. In the absence of any evidence at all that "fundies" want to hunt after witches and practice warped African tribal "Christianity" in North America, you simply impute it, and then go to the astounding lengths of fabricating an antidote. Lets see if I can do the same thing in reverse...hmmm....

"If atheists had their way, they'd shoot all believers just like Stalin did. The only thing that stops them is the Godliness of the Christian ethos." See? We could do this all day...just make up assertions, then "prove" them by supplying a made up reason why they don't obtain.

[Drea]

Cover you little Christian eyes and ears and say "La La La, I can't hear you!".

You Scotty, are obviously not a fundie. I don't think MLW has any fundies... ok maybe one, and we know who he is and don't have to name him here...

But if people like him were to have the reigns of power they would do exactly what the nuts in Nigeria are doing.

Do you think the henious acts in Nigeria should be covered up/ignored or do you think it should be discussed by the Christian community?

Do you think Muslim fundamentalism should be discussed by the Muslim community or covered up/ignored?

[Michael Hardner]

What a galloping strawman! Toodles, Mikey.

Bye, Scott.

I'll give you credit for at least trying to debate with me this time, before running off for easier prey...

[ScottSA]

But if people like him were to have the reigns of power they would do exactly what the nuts in Nigeria are doing.

See? There you go again. I have yet to hear keng advocate anything remotely like this, yet you have no qualms about imputing it to him. Has he accused you of wanting to shoot people? If he did, would it be fair if he cited other atheists who shot people and claimed that if you had your druthers, you'd be all about shooting people too?

Do you think the henious acts in Nigeria should be covered up/ignored or do you think it should be discussed by the Christian community?

Do you think Muslim fundamentalism should be discussed by the Muslim community or covered up/ignored?

Obviously neither should be "covered up," but let's be realistic. When we discuss the issue of rape, we don't dredge up some obscure case of a woman raping a little boy and claim that women are just as much of a problem when it comes to rape, right? We can be sure that you don't, anyway. We rightly attach more weight to males raping women. To do otherwise would simply be a farce. I'm sure I don't have to hold your hand and walk you through the nuances here, between an obscure event in barbarian tribal Christianity in Nigeria, and a global Islamic phenomenon reaching from the Russian "stans," to the horn of Africa, to Michigan, to across Europe and Asia. Do I?

[Michael Hardner]

Gee, Scott...

When we discuss the issue of rape, we don't dredge up some obscure case of a woman raping a little boy and claim that women are just as much of a problem when it comes to rape, right?

This is indeed rich. I'd love to think that my repeated admonishes that you drop individual cases of bad behavior as a rationalization for dumping on an entire religion... I'd love to think that it's getting through, but my gut tells me it's just a double-standard on your part.

Let's get this straight.

You're saying that you shouldn't use anomalies as a basis for general statements.

A 10 second search found this example from you:

MapleLeafWeb thread

"A Muslim inmate has won $2,000 and a partial human rights victory over a Correctional Service of Canada policy not to replace bacon with a halal diet for Islam-worshipping cons. "

I'm beginning to think Muslims are nothing but whiney thugs.

[ScottSA]

Gee, Scott...

This is indeed rich. I'd love to think that my repeated admonishes that you drop individual cases of bad behavior as a rationalization for dumping on an entire religion... I'd love to think that it's getting through, but my gut tells me it's just a double-standard on your part.

Let's get this straight.

You're saying that you shouldn't use anomalies as a basis for general statements.

A 10 second search found this example from you:

MapleLeafWeb thread

Thank you Mikey *patting you on the head*. Trot along, now.

[Michael Hardner]

Bye Scott, and thanks for showing us why you never lose an argument.

... don't dredge up some obscure case ...

"A Muslim inmate has won $2,000 and a partial human rights victory over a Correctional Service of Canada policy not to replace bacon with a halal diet for Islam-worshipping cons. "

I'm beginning to think Muslims are nothing but whiney thugs.

[gc1765]

You're saying that you shouldn't use anomalies as a basis for general statements.

A 10 second search found this example from you:

MapleLeafWeb thread

Good point! You seem to have left him speechless...

[ScottSA]

Good point! You seem to have left him speechless...

Nope. I just don't play with trolls. Especially trolls too dumb to miss rather obvious nuances.

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

Nope. I just don't play with trolls. Especially trolls too dumb to miss rather obvious nuances.

Well, it was well within your power to include said nuances in your argument. Instead, you declared victory and waved goodbye.

[kengs333]

Cover you little Christian eyes and ears and say "La La La, I can't hear you!".

You Scotty, are obviously not a fundie. I don't think MLW has any fundies... ok maybe one, and we know who he is and don't have to name him here...

But if people like him were to have the reigns of power they would do exactly what the nuts in Nigeria are doing.

Do you think the henious acts in Nigeria should be covered up/ignored or do you think it should be discussed by the Christian community?

Do you think Muslim fundamentalism should be discussed by the Muslim community or covered up/ignored?

You clearly just do not get it. As the article states, these things are being done "in the [i[name[/i] of Christianity." People using Christianity to suit their own agendas is nothing new. Nor is the fact that regional cultural practices tend to persist after conversion. Anybody with even the remotest understanding of Christianity knows that killing or the use of violence in the name of Christ is not condoned at all.

I'm curious where your outrage is over the brutal treatment and murders of Christians in Bagdad by islamic extremists? Or doesn't that suit your God-hating, anti-Christian agenda?

[kengs333]

See? There you go again. I have yet to hear keng advocate anything remotely like this, yet you have no qualms about imputing it to him. Has he accused you of wanting to shoot people? If he did, would it be fair if he cited other atheists who shot people and claimed that if you had your druthers, you'd be all about shooting people too?

Let's not forget the she stated she would slit my throat if it was possible to do so through a computer.

[jefferiah]

I know that this isn't happening on North American soil but it needs to be told. Christians need to know that this shit is being done in their name and they should be awash in disgust that someone somewhere is maiming children in the name of their saviour.

I never said it should not be told or asked for this story to be suppressed. My original response said that it was sickening. But I also added in that response that I wondered why the topic said fundies are the same all over. I had assumed that her meaning was Christian fundamentalists and so I was wondering what Christian Fundies were involved in this sort of thing over here (As if she was saying "See the Fundies even do this in Africa, just like they do everywhere else"). I may have been wrong about that now, as I see its quite possible and probable that she meant religious fundamentalists in general.

Right off the bat you say: "...type of thing that is quite commonplace in most Islamic nations on a regular daily basis" as if to deflect the heniousness -- they do it, so others doing it is not so bad. It is bad! Its horrible and should be the topic of every Christian church this morning. Discussing how some people could possibly twist Jesus' teachings into such horrific crap.

Ah. You are wrong. Right off the bat I said no such thing. In my original post (as aforementioned) on this topic I agreed with Buffy that this was sickening and said that I would not oblige her with any defense for it, which I am sure she was waiting for because judging by her posts she was expecting some "apologetic" entertainment.

Not only that in my second post, I did not say that right off the bat, but near the end. And it was not in response to Buffy's topic, but to your post. I avoided the bait originally of being the one to bring up the topic of equivalency. Now if you are kind enough to go back and review your own first post you will see that you are the one who introduced the matter of equivalency into this thread. You, having done that, opened the door for me to respond to it in rebuttal. You were the first one to mention Muslims, Drea. And you were pointing out how right-wingers criticize Islam but Christianity is ok. And you made a comparison between the Islamic fundies and Christian fundies. So you brought up the topic of equivalency. To which I then responded (and not right off the bat as you say) that there is still no comparison.

Edited December 17, 2007 by jefferiah