Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[White Doors]

Will such pronouncements ensure that only folks willing to trash thier cultural beliefs immigrate to Canada?

If their cultural beliefs are barbarous as this, then OF COURSE!

my goodness.

human rights over ride 'cultural beliefs'.

Keeping women as chattel is not the same 'cultural belief' as having a banzai tree.

One is good and one is bad and should NOT be oncouraged and the prospective immigrants who DO believe that should NOT be allowed in.

period.

[Moxie]

If their cultural beliefs are barbarous as this, then OF COURSE!

my goodness.

human rights over ride 'cultural beliefs'.

Keeping women as chattel is not the same 'cultural belief' as having a banzai tree.

One is good and one is bad and should NOT be oncouraged and the prospective immigrants who DO believe that should NOT be allowed in.

period.

Human Rights don't appear to overide Cultural Beliefs, if that were so women wouldn't be living under Sharia Law in Canada. Unwilling or willingly, like it or not we are allowing certain cultures to practice subjugation and oppression of women in the name of religions.

It's going to get worse.

[Peter F]

If their cultural beliefs are barbarous as this, then OF COURSE!

my goodness.

human rights over ride 'cultural beliefs'.

Keeping women as chattel is not the same 'cultural belief' as having a banzai tree.

One is good and one is bad and should NOT be oncouraged and the prospective immigrants who DO believe that should NOT be allowed in.

period.

I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such. So I cannot imagine what process would be able to weed such people out of the immigration line.

[White Doors]

I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such. So I cannot imagine what process would be able to weed such people out of the immigration line.

So in your esteemed opinion not only is there no problem, even if there is, there is nothing we can do about it anyways.. I see.. So thanks for coming out and 'sharing' your opinion. What an eye opener that was.

The muslim faith, especially the fundies, DO regard women as property. Wether you like to hear it or not, it's true. Your lack of belief changes nothing.

It would be quite easy to weed these wackos out.

[Black Dog]

With due respect Black Dog you have make the same kind of subjective assumptions of some of us as you fear may being imposed on "brown" people. Its a subjective generalization just as the one you stated that speculated that domestic violence happens with poor uneducated people from certain societies. (its actually not true, domestic violence and violence against women as per StatsCan or UN crime statistics shows it transcends social and economic class, religions, cultures, its not limited to poor people or certain religions or cultures-i.e., rich educated men also beat and murder women)

My point was, Rue, societies where violence against women is culturally or even legally sanctioned tend to be poorer and less educated. It's more overt in such societies compared to here. That's not to say it doesn't occur here. I agree that domestic violence is a universal phenomenon: in fact I'm sure I've mad e a statement to that effect already.

I think we're on the same page here.

[Guest American Woman]

I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such. So I cannot imagine what process would be able to weed such people out of the immigration line.

This should convince you otherwise:

Jamila Khan, (not her real name) was confident when she described her narrow escape from an honour killing in Pakistan's Punjab Province. "Women were always hated in my household. My mother hated having girls," the 25-year-old told IRIN in the Pakistani, capital, Islamabad.

From early on, Khan said she was stopped from progressing in every aspect of life. "I had to fight to go to school. I was tied up with rope and beaten on many occasions, and the bones in my hands have been broken so many times," she said.

Describing her treatment as worse than that meted out to animals, she said she had finally fled her home after her brother accused her of having premarital sex, ordered her to stay indoors, removed all the door-locks in the house to prevent her from hiding, and then threatened to electrocute her. Link

[Guest American Woman]

Great post Rue.

I agree.

I believe he MURDERED her because his religion teaches it's acceptable to beat women and children in the name of Allah. For someone to place their hands around another's neck and choke you to death tells me it was coldly executed with pure hatred and anger.

In all that I've read, I've never seen a reference to committing honor killing "in the name of Allah." So I think "honor" is a separate issue. They are doing it for their honor; their family's honor. Not for Allah. But I do believe it's done out of hatred as much as anger. I think that's a good point.

[Rue]

In response to Keng's latest unreferenced comments I would simply respond by saying the fact that he is not aware of matrifocal societies, does not mean they do not exist and he can assume he speaks on behalf of everyone in saying they do not exist because he has not heard of them. They exist.

I also contend his further unreferenced comments that matriarchal societies featured people showing reverence to sexual deceit and female manipulation is something that comes from his inner conceptions as to what he thinks women represent and not any facts and that is why they are not referenced.

Please Keng, show me wrong and provide reference sources for your negative comments about matriarchal societies being full of sexually deceitful manipulative women-which is very interesting considering you also stated you only knew of one matriarchal society. So how would you know such things. You said you only heard of one Chinese matriarchal society. Is that the one you suggest was full of sexually manipulative women? Is this your basis for depicting women as sexually deceitful and manipulative?

So Keng, are you arguing you would have beaten this girl if she did not follow your doctrine? Would you impose yourself on people who do not agree with you and force them to obey you?

Am I wrong to infer from your latest comments that is what you are advocating against women and for that manner anyone who disagrees with you?

You did Keng tell a poster you "blame" non Christians when you accused that poster of being an atheist, moral relativist non Christian for challenging your version of Christianity did you not? Read back your words Keng,.

So what happens once you blame them Keng-do you stop there or do you act further on it as this father did? Have you acted further against those you perceive as sinners to impose Christianity and purify the world from sin?

Edited December 19, 2007 by Rue

[Peter F]

So in your esteemed opinion not only is there no problem, even if there is, there is nothing we can do about it anyways.. I see.. So thanks for coming out and 'sharing' your opinion. What an eye opener that was.

The muslim faith, especially the fundies, DO regard women as property. Wether you like to hear it or not, it's true. Your lack of belief changes nothing.

It would be quite easy to weed these wackos out.

I agee with most of what you say. But I am not and have not claimed that women in too many places are not treated as chattel.

What I did say is " I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such."

[kengs333]

So Keng, are you arguing you would have beaten this girl if she did not follow your doctrine? Would you impose yourself on people who do not agree with you and force them to obey you?

Excuse me? Your repeated leaps in logic in order to paint me as something that I'm not is really questionable. I could just as easily suggest that "you would have [stoned] this girl if she did not follow your doctrine" because that's what it says in your holy books. You know full well that Christ taught non-violence, that he stopped Jews from stoning a sinner. Such utter nonsense. All things considered, I just do not understand why your flagrant bating and flaming continues to be tolerated.

[kengs333]

Human Rights don't appear to overide Cultural Beliefs, if that were so women wouldn't be living under Sharia Law in Canada. Unwilling or willingly, like it or not we are allowing certain cultures to practice subjugation and oppression of women in the name of religions.

It's going to get worse.

Well, the irony is, that Canada needs to import these kinds of people because "liberated" women in Canada don't want to have children, and population growth is key to economic growth. So, in other worlds, left-wing radicalism is responsible for bringing this kind of problem to Canada. If we had a truly Christian society, this would not even be an issue, and Canada would be a stronger country.

[Moxie]

I agree.

In all that I've read, I've never seen a reference to committing honor killing "in the name of Allah." So I think "honor" is a separate issue. They are doing it for their honor; their family's honor. Not for Allah. But I do believe it's done out of hatred as much as anger. I think that's a good point.

Sadly it's not done out of hatred, violence against women is based on the Koran. Here's what the koran says about "Beating Women" also did you read the article on Iran and the leading cleric declaring that women who don't wear the hijab deserved to die. That's the kind of instruction from leading Muslim Clerics that Muslims follow.

Here's the quotes and translation from the koran:

Question:

Does Islam permit a man to hit his wife?

Summary Answer:

Yes, but only if she doesn't do as he asks. The beating must cease if the woman complies with her husband's demands. Beating is also intended to be the last resort, behind verbal abuse and abandonment.

Muhammad, himself, is recorded as physically striking his favorite wife (from her own testimony). It is not known how he treated his less-favored wives.

The Qur'an:

Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said : Many women have gone round Muhammad’s family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Ishaq 969 - Commands that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

Thus the teachings of the koran clearly allow men to abuse and beat their wives. There are books in Muslim librarys in Canada that describe how to beat your wife, as well as videos. It's part of the teachings of the koran and Islamic Culture

Peter wrote: What I did say is " I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such."

Are you serious? A single person who thinks women are Chattel, how about millions of Muslim men. In Islamic countries female children are used as currency, sold off to husbands as young as six. They are currency, millions apon millions of women are forced to live as second class citizens based on Sharia Law. I'd be happy to post a couple of articles on Islam and slavery, the only countries in the world that partake of slavory? Islamic Ones.

Here's an article about Saudi Arabia: http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL12894106

Snippet: RIYADH, Dec 18 (Reuters) - Segregated from men, banned from driving and facing restrictions on travel, work, and even study, many Saudi women attempt suicide to escape one of the world's strictest societies.

Saudi Arabia, a conservative Islamic state where clerics demand the seclusion of females, often has an unforgiving attitude to women who find themselves victim to male violence.

A 19-year-old woman who was abducted and gang-raped by seven men was recently sentenced to 200 lashes in a case that drew international criticism and tarnished the image of Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, around the world.

King Abdullah this week issued a pardon for the woman, in what appeared to be a sharp rebuke to clerics of Saudi Arabia's hardline Wahhabi Islam who dominate the judiciary.

But the pressure of their closeted lifestyle in Saudi society forces women to live in a world of their own, often making the anxieties of adolescence or ordinary family problems harder to bear.

"I was desperate back then because of family problems. My mother got divorced and I had to stay with her while my two older brothers stayed with my father," said Maha Hamad, a 23-year-old student who attempted suicide two years ago.

"I faced too much pressure from my mother in everything I do in my daily life. It was impossible for me to run my life without her dictating to me what to do and what not to do."

Suicide is strongly proscribed in Islamic law, and hospitals often register suicides as "misuse of medicine" thus allowing cases

[Peter F]

Read what I wrote and not what you wish I wrote

What I did say is " I doubt whether you'd be able to find a single person on the face of this earth who would seriously agree that women are chattel and should be treated as such."

[JerrySeinfeld]

Excellent post, Moxie. Excellent.

[Drea]

Well, the irony is, that Canada needs to import these kinds of people because "liberated" women in Canada don't want to have children, and population growth is key to economic growth.

Blames women. Good grief Charlie Brown! Kengs you must really really hate women. I feel for you man, must be hard going through life hating 50% of the population.

So, in other worlds, left-wing radicalism is responsible for bringing this kind of problem to Canada. If we had a truly Christian society, this would not even be an issue, and Canada would be a stronger country.

If we had a truly Christian society I would have been burned at the stake at age 14. No thanks.

You know, you might be happier living in a theocracy...may I suggest Iran. I hear that woman are treated the way you wish you could treat them here. I'm sure if you tell them what a devout, pious human being you are and how much you despise western culture, they would welcome you with open arms.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Drea

[guyser]

Human Rights don't appear to overide Cultural Beliefs, if that were so women wouldn't be living under Sharia Law in Canada. Unwilling or willingly, like it or not we are allowing certain cultures to practice subjugation and oppression of women in the name of religions.

It's going to get worse.

Women do not "live" under shariah law, unless you meant imposed in the home. All women who agree to arbitration, outside of criminal law, must along with the husband agree to it and it is binding.

As for allowing certain cultures to oppress women in the name of religions, would you put Catholics in that group?

What about Italians ?

[guyser]

Well, the irony is, that Canada needs to import these kinds of people because "liberated" women in Canada don't want to have children, and population growth is key to economic growth.

You had to put in "liberated" didnt you. Oh well.

So, in other worlds, left-wing radicalism is responsible for bringing this kind of problem to Canada. If we had a truly Christian society, this would not even be an issue, and Canada would be a stronger country.

Ahh, blame the lefties.

Thankfully we do not have a truly christian society as represented by your ideologies. You have proven your utter distaste for many things, intolerance for other things, you know, like rights.?

If we did , Canada would be a weaker society.

Talk about boring and unproductive.

[Moxie]

Women do not "live" under shariah law, unless you meant imposed in the home. All women who agree to arbitration, outside of criminal law, must along with the husband agree to it and it is binding.

As for allowing certain cultures to oppress women in the name of religions, would you put Catholics in that group?

What about Italians ?

Yes I meant imposed upon them in the home, however when these Muslim Males commit crimes they find out they will get punished under OUR laws. However it doesn't stop them from enforcing Sharia Law onto women and children in Canada.

How are Catholic women oppressed? An example of their oppression, their abuse in the name of Jesus Christ would be applicable

The following video is actually a live news cast in Saudi Arabia, this is the kind of material that can be found globally in Mosques. There are many that are even more graphic. Domestic Violence is part of Islamic Teachings and Islamic Culture.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn5M43G1saw&NR=1

[guyser]

Yes I meant imposed upon them in the home, however when these Muslim Males commit crimes they find out they will get punished under OUR laws. However it doesn't stop them from enforcing Sharia Law onto women and children in Canada.

Ok . Clarified. People talk about Shariah Law as if it is in place in this counties laws. The same as some also say this man will get treated differently due to his religious beliefs, contrary to a ruling by the Supreme Court.

How are Catholic women oppressed? An example of their oppression, their abuse in the name of Jesus Christ would be applicable

Priests are forbidden to be women. They can take their money, but they cannot serve. That is oppression. There was an Apostolic letter that confirmed that women cannot be Priests.(May 1994)

Further, I was going to say Alter servers cannot be women , while not entirely true, it is somewhat ironic that the Pontiff said that some Priests could make that decision, but it is not binding on other Priest or Dioceses. IOW, the Pope said, Meh... if you want to.

[Black Dog]

Sadly it's not done out of hatred, violence against women is based on the Koran.

I'm betting there was violence against women before the Qu'ran was written. There's also violence against women in non-Islamic religions.

It's the difference between "violence against women is a Msulim problem" and "Violence against women is a problem among Muslims."

[kengs333]

You had to put in "liberated" didnt you. Oh well.

Why not? It's true.

Ahh, blame the lefties.

Why not? Is the left above reproach?

Thankfully we do not have a truly christian society as represented by your ideologies. You have proven your utter distaste for many things, intolerance for other things, you know, like rights.?

There are Old Order Amish and Mennonite societies in Canada and the United States. They are stable, have virtually no crime, are hardworking, industrious, civil, and quite prosperous.

[guyser]

Why not? It's true.

No it isnt. Care to show us how and why?

Why not? Is the left above reproach?

Not in the slightest above reproach. but thats cool, you keep on blaming one side in a myopic fashion if you wish.

There are Old Order Amish and Mennonite societies in Canada and the United States. They are stable, have virtually no crime, are hardworking, industrious, civil, and quite prosperous.

Wonderful. Will they let you live there?

Besides, I know gay communities like that, no crime, hardworking, industrious, civil beyond belief, and doing quite well financially.

Uh oh..... not what you wanted to hear.

[cybercoma]

I'm betting there was violence against women before the Qu'ran was written. There's also violence against women in non-Islamic religions.

It's the difference between "violence against women is a Msulim problem" and "Violence against women is a problem among Muslims."

Violence against women is not the effect of religion, but religious moral guidance certainly hasn't done a thing to stop their oppression.

[cybercoma]

Why not? It's true.

Why not? Because you're suggesting women should not be liberated. Fill in the blank...

The opposite of "liberated" is ______________.

You're suggesting that women should be _______________.

[kengs333]

Why not? Because you're suggesting women should not be liberated. Fill in the blank...

The opposite of "liberated" is ______________.

You're suggesting that women should be _______________.

Please note quotation marks.