Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[jbg]

That's really good news. Very heartening. I hope more communitites will follow suit.

More than committees, I'd like to see action. A good place to start would be "outing" some of these creeps that regularly abuse the women in their families.

Eastern men who have lived in Canada for any length of time and then cry religion after they lose it and kill their wife or daughter, would kill their wife or daughter no matter what race or religion they were. They pull out the religion card, or WE assume it's ethnic beliefs that prompted it. The fact that 50 or so men attended an anti violent forum tells me a lot about how the majority of these men feel. Probably no different than the majority of Canadian men who would not be capable of killing their wives or daughters.

Why this drive to give Islam a free pass? Why do so many contort themselves into pretzels in order to avoid the obvious, that these "people"have brutal, oppressive cultures, at least by Western standards. And before you jump to call for "tolerance" of their cultures, remember, the slave ships are gone, and no one dragooned these people to be in Canada or the United States.

[cybercoma]

Eastern men who have lived in Canada for any length of time and then cry religion after they lose it and kill their wife or daughter, would kill their wife or daughter no matter what race or religion they were.

I'm sorry, but when someone kills their wife or daughter for not wearing a burqa or hijab, or when women are killed for being raped, or when women are killed for dating men of other faiths, how can you sit here and claim it's not religiously or culturally motivated? That person believes in a God and thinks he knows that God's mind. When the woman steps out of line, without even thinking, he believes he has a God given right to put her in line. Often times, the woman is murdered so the family and men can show that they put God before all else.

The fact that 50 or so men attended an anti violent forum tells me a lot about how the majority of these men feel. Probably no different than the majority of Canadian men who would not be capable of killing their wives or daughters.

Fifty or so men tell you how the majority feel? That's a good one. I think those 50 or so men tell you how 50 or so men feel.

The countless incidents of violence towards women in Islamic nations and the lack of action by authorities, neighbours and relatives speaks volumes to the contrary. And why? Because these actions are acceptable, due to the religious upbringing and the value placed on faith over reason. Any rational human being can tell you that murdering a woman is wrong. Any rational human being can tell you that abusing your wife or daughter is disgusting. Bring religion into the equation and demand faith over reason and you severely distort people's concepts of right and wrong.

[charter.rights]

However, there is a colossal arrogance about the culture of the Muslim world in its treatment of women.

That is also true of Baptists, Jehovah Witness, and Christian Reformed who treat their women as subservient to men AND it is supported by the Ministers and Pastors of their Church (or Hall). I believe it has more to do with the extreme and fundamentalist Conservative viewpoints of the men that run these institutions than it does of a singular religious institution or belief system. It can also be said that there are people within various mainstream churches with the same attitudes but that they are not open about their ideas because they are not tolerated in their circles.

Womanizing and misogyny are not exclusive to Eastern religions, cultures or ideologies. In the west we have as many macho and flagrantly misdirected men as many other countries, albeit perhaps in less visible proportions. The only difference is that in their societies the treatment of women is openly accepted and at least in Canada, we are so closed about it that we really don't know the full extent of the problem.

Yet Robert Picton managed to kidnap, torture and kill at least 27 women (that we know of) under the noses of the police and the society that cared little for the women he murdered. As well the number of women who go missing annually is astounding, yet rarely makes mainstream news. Perhaps we just don't want to think of such things and are too comfortable in our myths that we are such a peaceful and secure country.

Missing Women in Canada

As far as Native women are concerned we care even less, and when their abusers are eventually captured and tried the courts treat them like they brought it upon themselves.

12 Year Natvie Girl Raped

Edited December 30, 2007 by charter.rights

[jbg]

That is also true of Baptists, Jehovah Witness, and Christian Reformed who treat their women as subservient to men AND it is supported by the Ministers and Pastors of their Church (or Hall).

Please.

Then why is this kind of violence almost a daily event among Muslims, and rare among others?

[Rue]

Please.

Then why is this kind of violence almost a daily event among Muslims, and rare among others?

The crime stats in Canada are public domain. You can go to stats can and see them for yourself. Violence against women arises in ALL religious fundemantalist groups. Its not particular to Islam. Its also not particular to race, ethnicity, social or economic class or for that matter just fundalementalists.

[Rue]

Please.

Then why is this kind of violence almost a daily event among Muslims, and rare among others?

Your above reference mixes political turmoil with domestic violence. Not the same thing. It plays to the stereotype of ALL Muslims having the same negative characteristics. Sure there is a lot of violence in the Muslim world motivated by people in the name of Islam but what about the millions you do not hear or see who are not violent? Its too easy to walk into these negative generalizations. Save them for the Kengs of the world.

[Rue]

I'm sorry, but when someone kills their wife or daughter for not wearing a burqa or hijab, or when women are killed for being raped, or when women are killed for dating men of other faiths, how can you sit here and claim it's not religiously or culturally motivated? That person believes in a God and thinks he knows that God's mind. When the woman steps out of line, without even thinking, he believes he has a God given right to put her in line. Often times, the woman is murdered so the family and men can show that they put God before all else.

Fifty or so men tell you how the majority feel? That's a good one. I think those 50 or so men tell you how 50 or so men feel.

The countless incidents of violence towards women in Islamic nations and the lack of action by authorities, neighbours and relatives speaks volumes to the contrary. And why? Because these actions are acceptable, due to the religious upbringing and the value placed on faith over reason. Any rational human being can tell you that murdering a woman is wrong. Any rational human being can tell you that abusing your wife or daughter is disgusting. Bring religion into the equation and demand faith over reason and you severely distort people's concepts of right and wrong.

I do not deny or condone Islamic fundamentalists who use their religion to commit violence against women, etc. Yes it is a fact in many Muslim societies. All I am saying is its easy to point the finger at Muslims but we have problems in Canada as well. I will criticize it yes, but not from a position of moral superiority-but humility.

Its not peaceful Muslims who are the problem and the problem is they get thrown in with the violent fundamentalists when we don't take the time to make it clear what it is we are criticizing.

[Leafless]

Your above reference mixes political turmoil with domestic violence. Not the same thing. It plays to the stereotype of ALL Muslims having the same negative characteristics. Sure there is a lot of violence in the Muslim world motivated by people in the name of Islam but what about the millions you do not hear or see who are not violent?

And how do you know that?

How do you know what is not reported?

How do you know the majority of Muslims don't abide by Islam in a manner that is unnaturally strict and abnormal?

You don't Rue and are off the mark again to-day.

It is offense that you consider all nationalities to be on the same level of civilized behavior as the modern, democratic countries of the world relating to oppression leading to domestic violence.

[Guest American Woman]

That is the point. That no one religion, no one ethnic or religious group has a specific monpoly to violence against each other, women, etc.

As I've said before, perhaps honor killing is a mix of religion and culture since all Islamic nations don't condone it, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. When immigrants are raised in a culture where violence against women and honor killing are condoned and overlooked, they are bringing that mindset with them when they move to western nations. This is a growing problem in the western world. It's a problem even among second and third generation Muslims in Europe, so it's not just culture-- it's religion, too.

According to the Human Rights Commission in Pakistan, 91% of all murder victims are women. That in no way compares with violence against women in Canada and the U.S.; there is no way we can say that it's 'the same all over.'

[charter.rights]

Please.

Then why is this kind of violence almost a daily event among Muslims, and rare among others?

It is not a daily occurrence anymore than it is a daily occurrence here. However, Muslims get identified by their religion, where Christians (or other religions) do not. It is a media bias that is unacceptable in my opinion.

How is it that so many murders, abductions and rapes of women not only go unreported here but there is no mention of the rapist's religion?

[charter.rights]

As I've said before, perhaps honor killing is a mix of religion and culture since all Islamic nations don't condone it, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. When immigrants are raised in a culture where violence against women and honor killing are condoned and overlooked, they are bringing that mindset with them when they move to western nations. This is a growing problem in the western world. It's a problem even among second and third generation Muslims in Europe, so it's not just culture-- it's religion, too.

According to the Human Rights Commission in Pakistan, 91% of all murder victims are women. That in no way compares with violence against women in Canada and the U.S.; there is no way we can say that it's 'the same all over.'

I think it does:

Roughly 33% of girls and 14% of boys are molested before the age of 18, according to the U.S. Justice Department.

Child Molestation Statistics

I think it is more prevalent than we'd like to admit. And I believe that this is not only the beginning of violence against female children, but it is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Leafless]

However, Muslims get identified by their religion, where Christians (or other religions) do not. It is a media bias that is unacceptable in my opinion.

Maybe followers of other religions don't go around the world blowing people up and severing off heads.

How is it that so many murders, abductions and rapes of women not only go unreported here but there is no mention of the rapist's religion?

Because in the country you are currently living in crimes are classified just as you quoted and are dealt with according to the crime and is not associated with terrorism as with Islam, which is why Muslims get the extra special attention, due to the amphasis on barbaric acts, associated with Muslims and Islam.

[Guest American Woman]

I think it does:

Roughly 33% of girls and 14% of boys are molested before the age of 18, according to the U.S. Justice Department.

Child Molestation Statistics

I think it is more prevalent than we'd like to admit. And I believe that this is not only the beginning of violence against female children, but it is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm referring to murder with those statistics; the percentage of murder victims that are women, because the main issue here is honor killing. Furthermore, according to The Human Rights Pakistan, they don't know how many honor killings go unreported. As I said, there is no way that compares to the U.S. and Canada. To come back and say you think you can say 'it's the same all over' by using completely unrelated statistics is complete and utter denial.

Look up the murder statistics for our nations and see what percentage is women. It's very telling that 91% of the murder victims in Pakistan are women.

Edited December 30, 2007 by American Woman

[capricorn]

It is not a daily occurrence anymore than it is a daily occurrence here. However, Muslims get identified by their religion, where Christians (or other religions) do not.

No, in Canada it is not a daily occurrence and we need to work to keep it that way. JBG is right. Actually, a daily occurrence worldwide might be an understatement.

"At least 27 women have died in so-called ‘honour killings’ over the past four months in northern Kurdish Iraq, an official from the regional government said Monday."

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=14300

"About 1,000 women are killed for "honour" in Pakistan each year, and a majority of the cases go unreported, a media report said on Saturday.

...

Women are burnt, raped, strangled and or just beaten to death each year in the country. The figures "reported in various surveys are gross underestimation of the real cases", said a report in the Business Recorder newspaper."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/H...how/2588460.cms

"Women from the Afghan province of Zabul demonstrated on Tuesday, calling for city authorities to find and punish a man who brutally attacked his wife during the Islamic festival of Eid al-Adha.

The local man, who has only been indentified as Mumtaz, shaved off his 17-year-old wife's hair and then cut off her nose and ears. He continued beating the woman until her legs and arms were broken.

"We bitterly condemn this act of sadism and regard it as trampling on our rights," a local women's rights activist said.

The woman, who is Mumtaz's second wife, is currently in intensive care.

"He killed his first wife," a local official said.

'Honor' killings, the murder of a female family member by her relatives for her actual or perceived 'dishonorable' behavior, such as adultery, refusal to engage in an arranged marriage, demanding a divorce, flirting, being kidnapped or raped, remain common in Afghanistan.

The Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission said that about 200 girls were killed by their relatives in 2006 in apparent honor killings."

http://en.rian.ru/world/20071225/94126694.html

I’d go on but it is just too depressing

It is a media bias that is unacceptable in my opinion.

I do not doubt the veracity of those and other media reports on the frequency of honour killings worldwide.

How is it that so many murders, abductions and rapes of women not only go unreported here but there is no mention of the rapist's religion?

Where have you read that those crimes go unreported in Canada? Are you saying there is a link between crime of rape and the religion of the rapists, and their religion should be made public?

[charter.rights]

Maybe followers of other religions don't go around the world blowing people up and severing off heads.

Because in the country you are currently living in crimes are classified just as you quoted and are dealt with according to the crime and is not associated with terrorism as with Islam, which is why Muslims get the extra special attention, due to the amphasis on barbaric acts, associated with Muslims and Islam.

Sure they do. G.W. Bush is one fine example. He declares that his actions are an act of his God determined destiny (which I believe is Southern Baptist). In history as in the present day Christians do as much if not more damage against humanity in the name of religion than any other religion. For gawd's sake you're still trying to civilize the savages in the middle east, while the majority of us realize just how uncivilized that makes you.

Do you hat women too. Leafless?

[charter.rights]

Are you saying there is a link between crime of rape and the religion of the rapists, and their religion should be made public?

Absolutely! Where do you think many fanatics get their ideas from? Literal translation of the Bible taught to them by the Church motivate some. However, the thinking that women are subservient or worthless are attitudes that come through generations that I bet if you trace them back would land somewhere within one of the organized religions.

If it is important for the media to publish the religion of Islamic criminals, then it is equally as important to publish the Christian ones...and then perhaps even more important.

[Guest American Woman]

G.W. Bush is one fine example. He declares that his actions are an act of his God determined destiny (which I believe is Southern Baptist).

It's Methodist. And source, please?

In history as in the present day Christians do as much if not more damage against humanity in the name of religion than any other religion. For gawd's sake you're still trying to civilize the savages in the middle east, while the majority of us realize just how uncivilized that makes you.

So what are present day Christians doing "in the name of religion" that's "as much if not more" than any other religion? I don't understand why people have to get sidetracked this way. If Christians are doing so much damage in the name of religion, please post about it. I'm very interested.

Recognizing the way women are treated all too often in Islamic nations is NOT being "anti-Islamic." Denying it, refusing to see it, is PC gone too far.

[Rue]

Leafless you stated in response to my comments:

"And how do you know that? How do you know what is not reported? How do you know the majority of Muslims don't abide by Islam in a manner that is unnaturally strict and abnormal? You don't Rue and are off the mark again to-day."

That is precisely why I made my remark Leafless-please read them again. Its precisely because you and I are not in the position to know, I argue we can not assume when we criticize Islam or ANY OTHER religion we know what every follower believes and practices and its precisely why I argue we need to use the same objective criteria when taking about ANY religion or society and take care not to make assumptions based on information we do not have-its got nothing to do with thinking societites are equal.

You stated;

"It is offense that you consider all nationalities to be on the same level of civilized behavior as the modern, democratic countries of the world relating to oppression leading to domestic violenc."

Read it again Leafless. I at no time stated all nationalities are on the same level of civilized behaviour. I make no claims to even being able to define what "civilized" behaviour really is. That is precisely why I argue we must use the same objective criteria to criticize all societies. Unlike you I do not assume a country that claims ot be "democratic" or "modern" automatically is civilized.

I am arguing a basic anthropological precept of examining all societies using the same criteria to avoid distorting what we analyze based on bias assumptions that our culture or way of life is superior.

And yes Leafless there is a difference between domestic violence and political violence. You can have

very "modern" "civilized" "democratic" societies and not have political violence but still have sexual violence.

That was the point. It's too easy to generalize all these issues with simplistic labels against an entire society,

And yes Leafless I know many Muslims who condone violence of any kind and stay silent precisely because they do not believe people like you will take the time to acknowledge this and distinguish them from extremists or fundamentalists.

Yah I am well aware of the media vision of bearded angry men running down the streets burning and pillaging.

All I know is I treat people as I want them to treat me. I do not appreciate people stereotyping me and my beliefs anymore then anyone else does. I will criticize those parts of the religion I believe promote intolerance but I will not use that to justify intolerance towards people that follow that religion. That is what I am arguing.

And by the way thanks for saying I think like Trudeau. Lol. And you remind me of either John Birch or McKenzie King.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Rue

[capricorn]

Absolutely! Where do you think many fanatics get their ideas from? Literal translation of the Bible taught to them by the Church motivate some. However, the thinking that women are subservient or worthless are attitudes that come through generations that I bet if you trace them back would land somewhere within one of the organized religions.

Charter, you made a statement of fact that the Church, through teaching the Bible, incite some to rape women. Where is your source to back up your claim? Or is this just your impression of all organized religions? There is a huge difference between the two.

If it is important for the media to publish the religion of Islamic criminals, then it is equally as important to publish the Christian ones...and then perhaps even more important.

According to your previously quoted comment, organized religion is behind all rapes. What would be accomplished by publicizing the religion of rapists? Would it be to show a preponderance to rape by a certain identifiable religion? For what purpose? What would society do with that information? You seem to think this information is necessary for some purpose.

What if the religion of the rapist is unknown to the authorities. Should police engage in religious profiling? And let's suppose the religion of the accused rapist is known to police and that rapist is at large? Should the police issue a notice "accused rapist believed to be (Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Buddhist or Taoist or...) sought by police". That sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

Don't you think we have had enough problems in law enforcement with racial profiling without delving into religious profiling? Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what you seem to be advocating.

Edited December 30, 2007 by capricorn

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure they do. G.W. Bush is one fine example. He declares that his actions are an act of his God determined destiny (which I believe is Southern Baptist).

President Bush is United Methodist (not Southern Baptist), after being raised in Presbyterian and Episcopalian churches. His present affiliation is likely due to his wife's religious affiliation and church attendance in Texas. Presidents McKinley and Hayes were also Methodist, and most presidents have invoked religion and "God" while in office, so in that regard President Bush is one fine example of many who have gone before.

In history as in the present day Christians do as much if not more damage against humanity in the name of religion than any other religion. For gawd's sake you're still trying to civilize the savages in the middle east, while the majority of us realize just how uncivilized that makes you.

Religion is the cover story for economics...always has been.

[jbg]

Sure they do. G.W. Bush is one fine example. He declares that his actions are an act of his God determined destiny (which I believe is Southern Baptist). In history as in the present day Christians do as much if not more damage against humanity in the name of religion than any other religion.

And when was the last time GWB or a Southern Baptist minister cut someone's head off?

For gawd's sake you're still trying to civilize the savages in the middle east, while the majority of us realize just how uncivilized that makes you.

Could 911 have been said to have been done by Middle East savages?

Do you hat women too. Leafless?

Maybe Leafless has put hats on women. I wouldn't know.

[cybercoma]

That is also true of Baptists, Jehovah Witness, and Christian Reformed who treat their women as subservient to men AND it is supported by the Ministers and Pastors of their Church (or Hall). I believe it has more to do with the extreme and fundamentalist Conservative viewpoints of the men that run these institutions than it does of a singular religious institution or belief system. It can also be said that there are people within various mainstream churches with the same attitudes but that they are not open about their ideas because they are not tolerated in their circles.

It's true that women are oppressed and maybe even abused, by men of other religions; however, there simply is no comparing the brutal violence with which Muslims treat their women. Any sort of abuse should be frowned upon, but from your post, it would appear that you're comparing slapping a woman around with hurling stones at her until her skull caves in and she dies. Although both are terrible, one is clearly a hell of a lot worse than the other.

[cybercoma]

Its not peaceful Muslims who are the problem and the problem is they get thrown in with the violent fundamentalists when we don't take the time to make it clear what it is we are criticizing.

I believe its the religious value of faith over reason that creates fundamentalism. The other problem I have is that non-fundamentalists, by giving credence to religious faith and demanding that we do not ask for any justification for these beliefs, are creating an environment for fundamentalism to flourish.

Water is not mold, but whenever someone has a water problem, mold is sure to follow.

Know what I mean?

[charter.rights]

It's true that women are oppressed and maybe even abused, by men of other religions; however, there simply is no comparing the brutal violence with which Muslims treat their women. Any sort of abuse should be frowned upon, but from your post, it would appear that you're comparing slapping a woman around with hurling stones at her until her skull caves in and she dies. Although both are terrible, one is clearly a hell of a lot worse than the other.

Show us the proof that this exists and is a consistent factor of their religious beliefs.

[cybercoma]

It is not a daily occurrence anymore than it is a daily occurrence here. However, Muslims get identified by their religion, where Christians (or other religions) do not. It is a media bias that is unacceptable in my opinion.

How is it that so many murders, abductions and rapes of women not only go unreported here but there is no mention of the rapist's religion?

Because when it comes to Islam, women are being murdered when they're raped by men who are not their husbands, they don't wear their burqas or hijabs and they're caught with men of other religions.

To say that these things are not done because of religion is wrong.

Murders, abductions and rapes of women in Canada are mostly done under terms regardless of religion rather than because of it. Except of course, when religion was clearly a factor, as is the case with this thread.