Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[ScottSA]

But what is almost as sickening as the act, is that there are those that would use this tragedy to push their own political agenda, namely the anti-immigration, anti-Islam, anti-nonwhite pro-Eurocentric Christian only agenda. Listening to these bottom dwelling mouth-breathers, I can hear the echo's of May 23, 1914 resounding as once again, the scared and insecure White men of Canada attempt to hold back the "Brown Invasion".

I think lots of you too, you obviously naive lollygag. This has absolutely everything to do with religion, and a refusal to integrate. What exactly do you have against an "Eurocentric Christian only agenda?" Let me rephrase it: under what moral imperitive do you suggest that we (meaning Eurocentric Christian based society) should be compelled to allow 7th century barbarians to set up shop here and maintain barbaric customs? You can attach all sorts of 60s era pseudo-intellectual nomenclature to your manufactured scorn, but you know what? Euro-centric Christian only "white" society has every right to have an agenda...especially if that agenda involves saving our society from sociopathic deathcults. Everyone else has an agenda, but somehow that never seems to get quite the same degree of scorn that "Eurocentric" agendas do. Why is that?

[Drea]

I don't condone what this father did, but I certainly understand it. I understand how a person can become that exasperated with their teenager.

I understand.

Obviously some of you have lived very quiet sheltered lives so this type of "experience as or with a teenager" would be totally beyond your realm of understanding.

I apologize for thinking that you may know something about the subject. My bad.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Drea

[Wild Bill]

I think some folks are perhaps making this issue too complicated. To me, it's really quite straightforward.

A man was raised in a culture that treats women and children quite differently than we do here in the West. This particular culture is Moslem, almost entirely. While you can argue that Islam for the most part does not condone this particular cultural trait, it is pretty obvious that that's the way this PARTICULAR strain of Moslem culture happens to think!

While the father may have felt no special desire to adopt our value system, his daughter growing up here seemed to feel differently. She wished to dress as did her peers and not as her father wished. His worldview was such that he felt driven to kill her rather than allow her to go against his wishes.

While most of Islam is no doubt as horrified at his actions as anyone else it would be impossible to deny that there are indeed SOME moslem cultures that condone if not approve of his actions.

So the question is really which culture in our "multi-cultural" Canada prevails? Obviously, we cannot go so far as to excuse the man and allow him to go unpunished. The big danger is that his culture and/or religion might be considered as mitigating factors in his sentencing.

If we do this then we are starting down the proverbial "slippery slope". This man should be treated as a murderer ONLY! His religion and cultural background should be deemed as inadmissable in his defense.

Over the past few years many defenders of our multicultural system have described our core values as the framing pieces that hold the mosaic together. Well, this is one of those instances when we should champion such "frames".

You can't suck and blow at the same time. Either fish or cut bait. Make a choice but be sure it's the right one. We're all gonna have to live with it, to our pride or to our shame, depending on which way we go.

[ScottSA]

I don't condone what this father did, but I certainly understand it. I understand how a person can become that exasperated with their teenager.

I understand.

Obviously some of you have lived very quiet sheltered lives so this type of "experience as or with a teenager" would be totally beyond your realm of understanding.

I apologize for thinking that you may know something about the subject. My bad.

I am often angry at my daughter, just as I was at her older sister. I manage not to kill them. And I never once got angry at them because they refused to bag their heads in public acknowledgement that they were lesser humans because of their sex.

[Wild Bill]

I don't condone what this father did, but I certainly understand it. I understand how a person can become that exasperated with their teenager.

I understand.

Obviously some of you have lived very quiet sheltered lives so this type of "experience as or with a teenager" would be totally beyond your realm of understanding.

I apologize for thinking that you may know something about the subject. My bad.

I'm raising two teenagers and I too "understand". However, understanding is irrelevant. Murder is murder. Sure he may have been frustrated but if he came to Canada then he accepted Canadian law.

To me, his actions merit either a TRUE life sentence (no automatic parole in 10-15 years) or he should be hung. That at least would prevent any repeated offences.

[Drea]

I think lots of you too, you obviously naive lollygag. This has absolutely everything to do with religion, and a refusal to integrate. What exactly do you have against an "Eurocentric Christian only agenda?" Let me rephrase it: under what moral imperitive do you suggest that we (meaning Eurocentric Christian based society) should be compelled to allow 7th century barbarians to set up shop here and maintain barbaric customs? You can attach all sorts of 60s era pseudo-intellectual nomenclature to your manufactured scorn, but you know what? Euro-centric Christian only "white" society has every right to have an agenda...especially if that agenda involves saving our society from sociopathic deathcults. Everyone else has an agenda, but somehow that never seems to get quite the same degree of scorn that "Eurocentric" agendas do. Why is that?

Although there have been "honour" killings perpetrated by immigrants, in Canada. I don't believe this particular incident was an "honour" killing. It was more a crime of "extreme anger" in the heat of the moment.

My grandmother used to throw blocks of wood at my mother (so I've been told) -- if she would've hit her in the head and killed her, it would be a crime of "passion". This is the same type of thing. Plus the man phoned the police, he did not try to get away with it by hiding her body and pretending she disappeared or whatever.

That's the way I see it. I could be wrong though. Maybe he and his son plotted it... but if they had I think they would've had a plan to get rid of the body and not called the police.

[Drea]

I am often angry at my daughter, just as I was at her older sister. I manage not to kill them. And I never once got angry at them because they refused to bag their heads in public acknowledgement that they were lesser humans because of their sex.

I know "what if's" are difficult but here goes:

What if your daughter was going out with the neighbourhood drug dealer? And she looked at you and said "f%#@(*& you dad! I am doing whatever I want when I want and there is nothing you can do to stop me!"

Would you feel "exasperated"?

Would you shrug your shoulders and walk away "oh well, she is right, she can do whatever she wants"?

If she walked home from school and every day you saw her she said f%#@(*& you dad. Would you feel like cuffing her upside the head? Of course you would! Would you do it? Perhaps, depends on how close to the end of your rope you were. What if you cuffed her a tad too hard and she died?

I know you wouldn't kill her on pupose... by the way, many women have been killed by their partners in "crimes of passion" in he heat of anger they lose control of themselves and go to far. Our laws make allowances for this, yet we are practically calling for the head of this father for killing his daughter in the "heat of the moment".

[Guest American Woman]

I came across this editorial a few days ago and found it interesting. I don't know who Jonathan Kay is, but to me it sounded as if he's on the defensive. He says "Canada is no Europe," and I'm wondering if any of the people here have any comments about that; whether you believe Canada is above Europe in this regard. Sounds as if he's saying while honor killings have made their way to Europe, there's no way that would ever happen in Canada. Excerpt:

Canada is no Europe, where immigrant communities are left to fester within impoverished ghettoes in perpetuity — with their imported violent and backward practices passed on from one generation to the next. Thanks to economic opportunity and a lack of class structure, assimilation typically takes just two generations in Canada.

As the case of Ms. Parvez shows, that assimilation process can be so rapid and wrenching that a parent can be driven to perform the ultimate evil against a child he doesn’t recognize anymore. But it is rare enough that we may at least view it as an isolated criminal act, not part of a larger epidemic.

Edited December 15, 2007 by American Woman

[Drea]

accidentally... can happen.

In the heat of the moment people have been killed. Women usually.

But you must admit, it does happen. People die because someone "loses it". Not necessarily because they planned it.

And that is what I am trying to say -- but you people keep jumping all over me saying I condone the killing of teenagers for pete sake.

In this specific case (father strangles daughter with scarf) I believe he "lost it". I do not believe he planned it. I do not believe this particular incident was an honour killing.

[Drea]

Here's an example:

My friend loves her cat. Really really loves him. But he has begun shitting on the floor in the basement. Well the other day she was down there, playing on her computer when she smelled the familiar stink... she lost it. She shoved kitties head into the pile of shit and did it a bit too hard and cracked his head on the cement. She went crying, carrying the kitty to her husband "Help I've hurt him! OMG what should we do!?"

Did she mean to hurt the cat? Of course not. It was just one additional shit added to all the other shits she had to clean up, that pushed her over the brink to get that pissed at him.

Happens. All I am saying is that it happens. People are not robots. People lose it when pushed to far.

Once again... I am not condoning what she did (or what the father-strangler did) but I can understand how it can happen.

And the courts will agree with me. It was a crime of anger (I don't call it "passion" because that conotates coupledom). Nothing more.

edited to add: Vet checkup says kitty has no broken bones and will be fine. He just refuses to go outside, so she got a litter box. Her other cats go outside as they please... but not this guy no way LOL

Edited December 15, 2007 by Drea

[Canuck E Stan]

accidentally... can happen.

Accidents don't happen.Accidents are caused.

Striking someone,putting your hands around their neck,sticking the kitten's head in shit are all causes. You're inabliity to control yourself from doing this kind of response shows it is YOU that has a problem,and it is YOU that needs help.

These actions are never justified, there are ways to resolve issues and being violent or committing violence of any kind is never ever one to even consider.

[DrGreenthumb]

I can't believe you people are so twisted as to think I should be banned for for for calling racists and bigots what they are. I don't really want to be a part of any forum where calling people 7th century barbarians and "sand people" is ok but rightfully pointing out that hating a people based on their colour/ethnic background is the very defnition of racism and bigotry. For your reference I have included the definitions of bigot and racist, so you can verify that you fall dirictly into both categories.

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot

defined broadly as stigmatization of those we perceive as different from us; defined specifically as the doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior. ...

www.geocities.com/paris/chateau/6110/europeconceptsterms.htm

Banning me from this site will not change the fact that MikeDavid is a bigot, or that all his threads are simply bigoted rants against people who are not as white as he is. Call the left all the names you want, everyone here can see that all these bigoted rants come from people who identify themselves as Conservatives. Minorities, take note of this and remember it come next election time.

[Drea]

well then I guess that MLW is just chock full of perfect people!

Seriously tho -- I am not condoning the behaviour, but I can understand how it can happen.

In this case, the father will most likely get manslaughter. At least the law understands. You people are more perfect than even our laws account for. Wow I am in utter awe of the perfection!

You mean if a person trips and falls in the bathtub... it's not considered an "accident"?

If they hadn't been using water.... if they hadn't been using soap.... they caused their own fall -- it was premeditated. Same with that woman who died in that car crash up north. If she hadn't have gotten in the car, if she didn't make that doctor appointment for that day... she would still be alive. Her car spinning out of control was her own fault. She should not have driven on that day. She should have known better. There are no such thing as "accidents".

again, I am not condoning the behaviour, but I can understand how it can happen (how many times does this need to be repeated, *sigh*)

[Drea]

Accidents don't happen.Accidents are caused.

Striking someone,putting your hands around their neck,sticking the kitten's head in shit are all causes. You're inabliity to control yourself from doing this kind of response shows it is YOU that has a problem,and it is YOU that needs help.

These actions are never justified, there are ways to resolve issues and being violent or committing violence of any kind is never ever one to even consider.

Accident is simply the wrong wording. An accident is something that happens whether or not a person causes an "accident" is not relevant in this case.

Because I understand how this could've happened does not mean that I condone the behaviour. I was just sick when my friend told me about Face (that's kitty's name) because he is my favourite of her cats. But I understand the level of frustration. I understand, not condone. You do know there is a difference between "understand" and "condone" right?

Here:

definition of "understand"

definition of "condone"

There, now hopefully I won't have to type it into every single post ten times for you folks to "get" it. Geez you make me out to be a murderer/kitty abuser/apologist.

[Denny]

From what I can gather from the news radio at work, the father himself called the police stating he thought he had killed his daughter.

Many years ago I was a cop and attended more then my fair share of violent domestic disturbance calls. Usually the violence doesn't just happen, a slowly escalating series of events leads towards a snapping point and in a fit of anger and rage, someone does something causing harm to another. Odds are this is what happened here. The issue was the daughter refusing to wear the traditional head scarf and going against her father's authority. Words were said, tempers flared, harsher words were said, neither side willing to back down, both believing they are in the right, then something snapped and violence occurred, leaving a young girl dead, her father now murder and a family shattered. I give him some grudging credit, he knew he had done wrong and he could of attempted to cover it up, hide the body or pull the old, my daughter has gone missing routine, he didn't do any of these things, he called the police and turned himself in. Judging from what little I have heard, I would say that this killing was done in the passion of the moment and was not premeditated, and hence he will be charged with second degree murder and when convicted will do prison time.

Their religion has little to do with other then being the catalyst. He could well of been a good Christian man who got angry with his daughter for sleeping around, or doing drugs, or whatever and could of snapped during an argument over her lifestyle. The majority of these types of killings, be parent killing child, child killing parent or spouse killing spouse happen in the heat of the moment.

How many here can honestly say that they have not been pushed close to the brink by a family member or loved one, where you have come close to or actually have snapped and lashed out, or have been on the receiving end of being lashed out at? Such violence is in-excusable, however it is understandable. The man will have his day in court and he will be punished by the laws of Canada.

But what is almost as sickening as the act, is that there are those that would use this tragedy to push their own political agenda, namely the anti-immigration, anti-Islam, anti-nonwhite pro-Eurocentric Christian only agenda. Listening to these bottom dwelling mouth-breathers, I can hear the echo's of May 23, 1914 resounding as once again, the scared and insecure White men of Canada attempt to hold back the "Brown Invasion".

Lazurus, that is the most well thought out and well written comment on this thread so far. I guess we don't know the kind of things police experience.

I can confess to getting into some rough scuffles with my son who was very difficult as a teenager. Nothing life or limb risking mind you, but some punches and wrestling. I could not abide his defiance. And, you are right, it does not matter much the root of the defiance, in this case, his use of bad language or if it had been his religious choices. It just became a "chemistry" thing. He was able to push all my bad buttons and I was was always able to set off his likewise.

Some people look for any event that props up their cause of choice, whether its female rights or its anti-immigration.

I hope in this case Canada checked out this immigrant, that he had no history of violent crime. But, that is all that can be done. A person with no existing criminal record can become a killer, whether this is out of greed or its out of emotional hysteria.

On the first score, checking the background, I wonder at times about this, My previous neighbour, an East European, had committed acts of violence in his past in his native land and yet he was accepted to Canada as an immigrant. HBe went on to drink excessively and get into fights, especially his own family, but others too. Considering the impact one short tempered person can make to society, it wold be worth our while as a country to do a good background check on each immigrant and maybe even a psychological assessment. Employers frequently do that. Its even more important that our country do that. Immigrants pay considerable processing fees to the government, so that may well fund this.

[Canuck E Stan]

Because I understand how this could've happened does not mean that I condone the behaviour.

Beating your kid? You understand how this happens?

Putting your hands around someone's neck,you understand how this happens?

Sticking your cat's face in it's shit,you understand how this happens?

Why is it that I can't?

[Argus]

I know "what if's" are difficult but here goes:

What if your daughter was going out with the neighbourhood drug dealer? And she looked at you and said "f%#@(*& you dad! I am doing whatever I want when I want and there is nothing you can do to stop me!"

Would you feel "exasperated"?

Teenagers can certainly get one exasperated.

Can you find me a case where a "Canadian" parent killed their teenager because of this exasperation?

There haven't even been any suggestions from the family that he was drunk or under the influence of drugs - or insane. I don't recall a sane, sober Canadian parent ever killing their teenager, regardless of "exasperation". Perhaps you can find a case.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Argus

[Argus]

Here's an example:

My friend loves her cat. Really really loves him. But he has begun shitting on the floor in the basement. Well the other day she was down there, playing on her computer when she smelled the familiar stink... she lost it. She shoved kitties head into the pile of shit and did it a bit too hard and cracked his head on the cement. She went crying, carrying the kitty to her husband "Help I've hurt him! OMG what should we do!?"

A teenager is a bit less fragile than a cat. You really have to work at it to kill one. You may well be right that he eventually gets manslaughter. The law in Canada is ludicrous about "proving" that a person actually intended to kill another. People who have shot and killed others multiple times, even a guy who laughed aloud as the guy died and proclaimed how pleased he was that he was dying, have been found guilty of a lesser charge because it's almost impossible to prove intent under Canadian law.

"Yes, your honour. I shot him fourteen times in the chest but - I never intended to kill him."

"Oh well, okay then, manslaughter."

In other jurisdictions if you shoot someone and they die - it's murder. If you beat someone and they die - it's murder. If you stab someone and they die - it's murder. That's the reality of things when you don't involve soulless lawyers.

This girl was murdered by a cretin from the dark ages. And for all the whiners from the left who want to distance religion from this the fact is that it was the cultural background of this family which caused the murder. And there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of men just like this guy in Canada now, with more coming in every year. Usually, they don't kill their daughters. Because usually, family pressure, including beatings, is enough to force the girls to submit. But that kind of mentality is alive and well here and growing with every plane load of third world religious wackos which sets down here.

[Drea]

Teenagers can certainly get one exasperated.

Can you find me a case where a "Canadian" parent killed their teenager because of this exasperation?

There haven't even been any suggestions from the family that he was drunk or under the influence of drugs - or insane. I don't recall a sane, sober Canadian parent ever killing their teenager, regardless of "exasperation". Perhaps you can find a case.

I don't imagine that he was drunk, drugged or insane. Just angry. Very very angry. AGAIN, I am not condoning the behaviour....

Parents do kill their children...

link

Though men generally kill at 10 times the rate of women, the numbers are nearly equal when it comes to children. For example, in 2000, 15 fathers and stepfathers killed their children in Canada, compared with 9 mothers.

another link

Women killers

Homicides

To take this ONE case where the angry father just so happens to be Muslim and then saying that is the ONLY reason that kids are killed (not obeying Muslim law) is wrong.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Drea

[Guest American Woman]

To take this ONE case where the angry father just so happens to be Muslim and then saying that is the ONLY reason that kids are killed (not obeying Muslim law) is wrong.

Where has anyone said that the only reason kids are killed is because they didn't obey Muslim law??

He more than "just so happens to be Muslim." His anger was due to the fact that he was a devout Muslim and his daughter wasn't living according to his faith. Because other parents kill their kids too, you seem to think this is of no significance. But in this particular case it is of significance.

[Argus]

I don't imagine that he was drunk, drugged or insane. Just angry. Very very angry. AGAIN, I am not condoning the behaviour....

Parents do kill their children...

link

another link

Women killers

Homicides

To take this ONE case where the angry father just so happens to be Muslim and then saying that is the ONLY reason that kids are killed (not obeying Muslim law) is wrong.

No one is saying that other men haven't killed their kids. What I said was that in all cases I'm aware of the killing involved drugs or alcohol, or a breakup with the wife including suicide. I am not aware of another case, ever, where a teenage child (as opposed to a fragile baby who might have been shaken) was murdered by a sober parent not involved in the suicidal finale of a marital breakup and a ruined life.

[Higgly]

Wow. What a thread! Should we start another?

Christian father rapes infant daughter and puts video on internet for profit....

[buffycat]

I don't imagine that he was drunk, drugged or insane. Just angry. Very very angry. AGAIN, I am not condoning the behaviour....

Parents do kill their children...

link

another link

Women killers

Homicides

To take this ONE case where the angry father just so happens to be Muslim and then saying that is the ONLY reason that kids are killed (not obeying Muslim law) is wrong.

Drea, I get what you are saying. Others here may not, but I certainly do.

I have avoided this thread for a few reasons (mostly due to the overwhelming bigotted responses by certain members who chose to focus on the Muslim thing), but when I read your heartfelt posts I felt I'd lend a supporting hand.

Back years ago, in grades 7,8 and 9 I was dear friends with a lovely girl whose parents were recent arrivals from Hungary. They were terribley strict. She was often physically assaulted by her mother and father both - if caught wearing make-up or anything 'frilly'. Now, sometimes these altercations were very nasty, leaving bruises etc. I have no doubt that it could have become worse, but here father died and while her mother continued with the very strict rules she was not a physical threat to my friend any longer. She could easily have wound up dead - and if so - would this board be blaming the actions on their Hungarian Jewish heritage?????

What nonsense. Some folk simply snap. IMO this is what happened here. I would wager this guy feels pretty awful right now, I don't think this is in any way an honour killing - it's a terrible accident which resulted from a situation which was out of control.

Anyway, carry on blaming the brown people - I'm outta here.

[Argus]

Wow. What a thread! Should we start another?

Christian father rapes infant daughter and puts video on internet for profit....

And he did this out of his religious beliefs?

Most men who rape their daughters are about as "Christian" as you.

[kengs333]

accidentally... can happen.

In the heat of the moment people have been killed. Women usually.

Umm.... the majority of murder victims in Canada (c. 66-75%) are men, and the murder is usually the result of criminal activity. Domestic violence homicides constitute a small fraction of the total, and include some male victims and children killed by there mothers.