Is Scientology dangerous?

[kengs333]

What a most pedantic reply to some very poignant observations. That seems to be an evolving pattern with you. Are you hiding something? You sound like someone I know who was kicked out of our Church for trying to take over minister's job. This guy had a Jesus complex, tried to single people out in his Bible classes and even likened himself to Martin Luther King Jr. What a moron that guy was and now I understand he is peddling internet porn on a number of sites and passing it off as religious art......what a joker, huh?

Do you honestly believe you've deftly veiled your attack by making it in the form of a "you remind me of someone" anecdote?

[charter.rights]

Do you honestly believe you've deftly veiled your attack by making it in the form of a "you remind me of someone" anecdote?

If I said you reminded me of Jesus would you still think it was an attack. Yeh I thought so....

You remind me of someone I knew (and certainly wouldn't associate with at this time in my life). You seem to share a number of ideas. Since I don't know you personally, all I can do is draw from my reference and try to match a personality.

Right now you remind me of a 8 year old girl who used to say "la la la la la la I'm not listening to you.... la la la la".

And rather than discussing you, let's get back to the subject matter, please. It is far more interesting.

Edited December 16, 2007 by charter.rights

[cybercoma]

We do know that there have been some successful studies at John Hopkins concerning the use of prayer in surgery (most patients healed about 30% faster than other patients)

Here is an article from the tMarch 31, 2006 edition of the Times Online that completely refutes this idea.

[P]atients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.

This doesn't necessarily indicate a cause and effect relationship between the two, but it would certainly indicate that prayer does NOT expedite healing.

The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

American Heart Journal. From efficacy to safety concerns: A STEP forward or a step back for clinical research and intercessory prayer?: The Study of Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)

The above is a link to the American Heart Journal publication on the matter.

In short, where did you get your facts from? Everything I've ever read has suggested otherwise.

[Drea]

For the same reason he has the audacity to ask someone what their denomination is when he has repeatedly refused to say what his is. Hint I am coming back with some more responses. Look out Keng here I come!

You Rue are one of the most sensible posters (you and black dog) her on MLW.

For the record, not that I know 'cause I havent' studied it but it seems to me that the only "religion" out there that isn't vilifying everyone else, is the Jewish religion. I have never had a Jewish person tell me I am a heathen or a sinner or that I am going to hell because I don't believe. If we HAD to have one world religion... we should go with Judaism.

[kengs333]

If I said you reminded me of Jesus would you still think it was an attack. Yeh I thought so....

Yeah, I would, actually, because being accused of such a thing is insulting because you'd be suggesting that I consider myself to one of these false prophets that he warned about; moreover, given the trend of all of you few posts here, there's no reason to consider it in any way complimentary.

You remind me of someone I knew (and certainly wouldn't associate with at this time in my life). You seem to share a number of ideas. Since I don't know you personally, all I can do is draw from my reference and try to match a personality.

You remind me of a couple of people we all knew quite well here just a short while ago.

Right now you remind me of a 8 year old girl who used to say "la la la la la la I'm not listening to you.... la la la la".

Your older sister?

And rather than discussing you, let's get back to the subject matter, please. It is far more interesting.

Why did you start in the first place?

[Dustin]

What is Scientology?

[kengs333]

You Rue are one of the most sensible posters (you and black dog) her on MLW.

For the record, not that I know 'cause I havent' studied it but it seems to me that the only "religion" out there that isn't vilifying everyone else, is the Jewish religion. I have never had a Jewish person tell me I am a heathen or a sinner or that I am going to hell because I don't believe. If we HAD to have one world religion... we should go with Judaism.

That's right, because they believe that their God is only there God and everyone else isn't chosen. So there's really no point in a Jew telling someone like you what they think of your behaviour because according to their belief, well, it just doesn't change the way things are. Of course, in the end, it doesn't matter; the prophesized Messiah has already come, and God's love and grace has been granted to all the peoples of the world who will sincerely recognize him and accept Jesus as their personal saviour. Which is why Christianity is a world-wide religion, while those who don't recognize Jesus continue to adhere to an exclusive, race-based notion of identity and religion. Funny how Christianity always gets knocked for being archaic, though.

I find it interesting that you would consider Judaism the way to go if we had "one world religion" because that's what it essentially was intended to become with the coming of Jesus--yet all you do is mock and ridicule and deny. Moreover, your criticisms of Christianity always seem to be based on Old Testament writings, which the Jews still consider sacred. Very curious, indeed.

[kengs333]

What is Scientology?

STOP sending me messages promoting your website.

[kengs333]

Poor Germans. Because of Hitler they have no freedom. Because of what he did to the Jews (and gays, and gypsies and mentally handicapped people... these others seem to rarely get a mention....) Because of this, they do not allow free speech of any kind, there is no longer a discenting voice allowed.

You've never been to Germany, I suppose; anyone who has would know that this is not true, that it's simply a stupid assertion.

[charter.rights]

You've never been to Germany, I suppose; anyone who has would know that this is not true, that it's simply a stupid assertion.

Isn't Germany the home territory of the Skinhead White Supremacist Movement? (Left over Nazis)

[buffycat]

Isn't Germany the home territory of the Skinhead White Supremacist Movement? (Left over Nazis)

No, the 'skinhead movement' was born in the working class barrows of late 50's and early 60's England. From what I gather it was a darker offshoot of the 'Mod' movements.

Here is a little history:

The Skinheads have their origin in the various youth subcultures in England beginning during the post-WWII era. The first wave of what we today recognize as Skins polarized themselves in the 1970s against the various youth counterculture movements of the day. The Skins themselves were working class, patriotic, and highly aggressive, while their main targets, their long-haired Hippie, counterculture age mates, were often from more privileged backgrounds, and advocated a mellow detachment from society. In this period, the Skinheads began fighting with the police and engaging in Paki bashing and queer bashing which were essentially attacks on any male who looked odd. It was also in this period that the Skinhead look was achieved: shaved head, boots, etc.

The second wave of the Skinhead movement took shape in the 1980s.This was the period in which Ian Stuart founded the neo-Nazi organization called the British National Front. He became the lead singer in the band called Skrewdriver. The music of Skrewdriver, and other bands that followed, along with the organizational skills of people like Stuart, contributed to the growth of a distinctive Skinhead subculture in the early 1980s.They identified with the ideology of Nazism and white power. Their shaved heads, T-shirts, boots, tattoos, and aggressiveness comprised a visible and confrontational style. It was this second wave that was to cross the Atlantic to the United States.

LINK

[buffycat]

You've never been to Germany, I suppose; anyone who has would know that this is not true, that it's simply a stupid assertion.

Kengs, questioning anything wrt The Holocaust in Germany will win you 5 years in prison.

[charter.rights]

Kengs, questioning anything wrt The Holocaust in Germany will win you 5 years in prison.

For a pariah like Kengs333 that would be a walk in the park - he'd have some captive friends that he could convert.

Edited December 29, 2007 by charter.rights

[kengs333]

For a pariah like Kengs333 that would be a walk in the park - he'd have some captive friends that he could convert.

Pariah? What an utterly crude remark.

pa·ri·ah /pəˈraɪə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[puh-rahy-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an outcast.

2. any person or animal that is generally despised or avoided.

3. (initial capital letter) a member of a low caste in southern India and Burma.

(dictionary.com)

[Rue]

In response to Keng's latest rants;

"That's right, because they believe that their God is only there God and everyone else isn't chosen. So there's really no point in a Jew telling someone like you what they think of your behaviour because according to their belief, well, it just doesn't change the way things are."

Chosen in Judaism has nothing to do with a belief of being superior to others and believing Judaism is the only appropriate religion and God favours Jews. What Keng spews is a classic anti-semitic myth followed by a slur against all Jews based on his false assumptions and his belief that all Jews think the same and have the exact same beliefs and of course he understands these beliefs.

In fact in Judaism all the concept of "chosen" refers to is the belief that God placed an obligation on Jews to honour God by following certain principles and for that matter in living in Israel which God allegedly promised to them as they fled from Egypt. No more, no less. Judaism forbids forced conversion or any notion that a Jew is superior to anyone from any other religion.

Keng then preaches to the masses and states;

"Of course, in the end, it doesn't matter; the prophesized Messiah has already come, and God's love and grace has been granted to all the peoples of the world who will sincerely recognize him and accept Jesus as their personal saviour. Which is why Christianity is a world-wide religion, while those who don't recognize Jesus continue to adhere to an exclusive, race-based notion of identity and religion. Funny how Christianity always gets knocked for being archaic, though."

Interestingly Keng enggages once again in the exact same religious exercise he accuses other religions of doing-he creates a "chosen" people who be believes are the righteous while everyone else is a sinner. The test for whether you are part of Keng's exclusive chosen hinges on the following condition and that is whether you will "sincerely reognize him and accept Jesus" as he states. But as we know from previous posts from Keng, just because you recognize Jesus as your personal saviour doesn't make you a "true" Christian as Keng puts it. To be a "true" Christian you mus subscribe to Keng's belief system to be able to "soncerely" recognize Jesus and so qualify for his exclusive list of righteousness.

The interesting thing of course is to this day,while Keng couches his hatred, intolerance, anti-semitic and other hate myths in references to Christianity, he won't disclose what Christian sect he is a member of and leaves his audience with cryptic references as to what Keng considers "sincere" recognition of Jesus.

More to the point Keng's reference to race based identity is a couched reference to Judaism and again reflects another classic anti-semitic myth that Jews are a race of people. In fact Jews are of many races, including caucasian, negroid, and mongoloid and the religion does not in any way shape or form define Judaism based on race but in fact on observance to Jewish laws and precepts.

In fact the notion of Jews as a race was used by the Nazis and then the Middle Eastern world and today's modern anti-Zionists when claiming Zionism is racism, precisely because they assume the motion of Jews desiring universal sufferage or expression of their identity through a state apperatus is based on race which it is not and in fact isn't even baed on Judaism but a political belief that sprung from the trade unions of Europe and oppressed second class people escaping pogroms and then the holocaust dreaming of a place where they would be left alone and would not be second class inferiors as they were in the Christian and Muslim worlds.

Keng then just can't resist and states;

"I find it interesting that you would consider Judaism the way to go if we had "one world religion" because that's what it essentially was intended to become with the coming of Jesus--yet all you do is mock and ridicule and deny."

In fact the original remark was made to me by Drea and Drea is very well aware I do not consider Judaism as the only way or the superior way and would not take his comment literally but specifically in reference to the talmudic principle in Judaism that no one religion is superior to another. No sorry to diappoint you Keng, I have had my debates with Drea over many things, and he is not seeking conversion just giving me some much appreciated support in debating positions where we treat each other with equal respect.

If Keng you bothered to read what Drea has actually written, he has never once ridiculed anyone's religion. You again criticism him when you do the exact same thing above in your alleged criticism of what you think Judaism is.

You stated;

"Moreover, your (Drea's criticisms of Christianity always seem to be based on Old Testament writings, which the Jews still consider sacred. Very curious, indeed."

Again Keng you project. In your world Jews are the arch=enemy of Christians right so Drea flirts with Satan right? Sorry to burst your bubble but if you tried to actually read what he writes he makes references to many many sources. More to the point Keng both Drea and I and I would like to think most people who appreciate theology no trying to use the New Testament to contradict the Old Testament or vice versa may be a game you play but we don't. We consider all religious texts using the same critical reference points. All are criticized equally.

Now run along before I have the Arch-angel Michael come and visit you and ask you for reference sources for your above diatribe. (note I make no reference to Santa)

[Rue]

Pariah? What an utterly crude remark.

I am sure he did not mean to disparage animals or people from Burma or India.

[Rue]

Kengs, questioning anything wrt The Holocaust in Germany will win you 5 years in prison.

Why Buffy you sound disappointed? Were you planning a trip with Keng to Germany? I am jealous!!!!!!!!

On a more serious note, Germany has such laws for very real reasons. Precisely because of the holocaust the implications of people denying it cause very explosive consequences in this country. Ask Drea. Write him in private and ask him why the German constitution had to create this law.

Germany is a nation trying very hard to accept moral responsibility for its past by institutionalizing certain laws and archives so that its past can not be repeated.... but its a painful past and no its not necessarily openly discussed and taught with ease. How do I know this? I take in exchange students (14-17) from Germany every year and I have been active in youth history echange groups in Germany and done some radio interviews there with young Germans. Many youth do not discuss the holocaust as their parents or grandparents or schools are reluctant to deal with it. So the government has tried to create a museum and curriculum but its been very difficult to find ways to discuss it. Germany is a complex nation of old timers still in denial with a very progressive next generation that have not shied away from it followed by a third generation that like our third generation is not necessarily aware of its past.

Today's German youth like all European youth live in countries (in the case of Germany I believe 3 million Muslims) with many Muslims and visible minorities and there is a new tide of nationalism and resentment towards Muslims/Immigrants in Europe.

Such laws try balance the need for freedom of speech with the kind of remarks that would not just be necessarily explosive to the Jewish community in Germany, or the non Jews of Germany who fought the Nazis or their next generation families but could also be used to fuel the kind of sentiments that incite hatred against Muslims or other groups.

France has a similiar law precisely for the same reasons.

Before the German government would proesecute you and place you in jail for such denial, the cases in the German courts make it clear they will use the same standard or test we use in the US and Canada as to incitement of hatred. Its not something they use lightly. As I also understand it the vast majority of Germans agree with this law and understand among other things it helps them deal with managing their angry disaffected youth who become vulnerable to neo-Nazi groups that go around beating new immigrants, etc.

Ernst Zundel is in jail in Germany for this law. If you look who has been actually jailed under this law, it has been very few people for very blatant reasons.

[kengs333]

I am sure he did not mean to disparage animals or people from Burma or India.

Didn't somebody just have a chat with you about this kind of nonsense?

[buffycat]

Why Buffy you sound disappointed? Were you planning a trip with Keng to Germany? I am jealous!!!!!!!!

On a more serious note, Germany has such laws for very real reasons. Precisely because of the holocaust the implications of people denying it cause very explosive consequences in this country. Ask Drea. Write him in private and ask him why the German constitution had to create this law.

Disspointed? Only in so much that I think that discussion of the events leading up to and surrounding the Holocaust shouldn't be illegal to discuss - ie truth needs no laws to support it. There are no equivalent laws wrt any other genocide anywhere. There are no laws even disallowing the discussion of whether Christ was actually the son of God, or taking it further whether he even existed! Yet - ask a question about the Holocaust and go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200$.

...So the government has tried to create a museum and curriculum but its been very difficult to find ways to discuss it. Germany is a complex nation of old timers still in denial with a very progressive next generation that have not shied away from it followed by a third generation that like our third generation is not necessarily aware of its past.

Part of the reason it has become difficult to discuss is due to the very laws enacted which make it a crime to discuss. I lived in Germany for many years, before these laws were enacted Rue. It wasn't an issue - ie real denial that any Jews were targetted. (Which from what I understand is not the main view of revisionists anyway. I don't think there is any argument that certain groups were persecuted - communists, Roma, Gays, Catholics and of course Jews. This is pretty clear). What isn't clear is exactly how many (of all groups - not just those of Jewish ethnic origins) were actually murdered in the ways described. IOW it may not have occured quite the way that Hollywood has protrayed it over the last decades. I also find it rather crass that virtually never are the other victims even spoken about - it's all about the Jews. What of the others? Were any reparations made to them? Are they even mantioned, acknowledged and mourned with equal fervour? Sadly, no. Add to that the Soviet death tolls that make Hitler's folly look mild by comparison - yet again nary a word. I guess some genocides are more 'special' than others eh Rue?

(Now before your head explodes, let me state that my own family tree was well represented in the Auschwitz records - having lost a good number of my own extended family to the concentration camps and the effects of WW2.)

As far as those third generation Germans who are not aware - horsehooey!! They are all quite aware of what a certain leader of their country did 70 odd years ago - and in many ways - even though they weren't even born then - are still paying for it.

Such laws try balance the need for freedom of speech with the kind of remarks that would not just be necessarily explosive to the Jewish community in Germany, or the non Jews of Germany who fought the Nazis or their next generation families but could also be used to fuel the kind of sentiments that incite hatred against Muslims or other groups.

Nonsense. The Jewish community in Germany is doing quite well thanks, in fact immigration to Germany by Jews has been rising over the last years - yep lots of Israeli Jews are reclaiming their German citizenship and leaving - for living in Germany for them is preferrable to living in Israel. (I also have friends who have done this - made aliyah then woke up and went back!!!). Also, this isn't about 'hate' speech - there are laws already for incitement to violence - a far cry from asking pertinent questions about the start of the cleansing and genocide. Rue, as the story goes - once there were 'gas chambers' all over, then when it was unconfirmable in the lands of Germany, the camps which were the 'death' camps were all on outside territory - esp Poland. Even the numbers at Auschwitz have been reduced from 4 million down to just over a million (Jews and non-Jews alike). To even mention this is a crime - why??? It begs the question - why???

Does asking these questions diminish the horror of the Holocaust? Of course not! How can it? Does it suddenly turn Hitler et al into good guys? Of course not! Don't be silly.

So, I would wager given your full support of these anti-speech and anti-thought laws that you wouldn't have a problem with banning any kind of research into the genocide of North American Natives eh? Since it might offend them in some way? How about a nice law banning the denial of the existance of Christ? That's a good one! Hey - lets make a good little law which will stop all research into the Ukranian Holodomar while we're at it. See where this is going? (Of course a good little law criminalising any research into the historical accuracy of the Crusades might also be on the agenda!!).

Do you see a problem here??

Before the German government would proesecute you and place you in jail for such denial, the cases in the German courts make it clear they will use the same standard or test we use in the US and Canada as to incitement of hatred. Its not something they use lightly. As I also understand it the vast majority of Germans agree with this law and understand among other things it helps them deal with managing their angry disaffected youth who become vulnerable to neo-Nazi groups that go around beating new immigrants, etc.

Ernst Zundel is in jail in Germany for this law. If you look who has been actually jailed under this law, it has been very few people for very blatant reasons.

*If* they are inciting hatred then charge them with that - fine. However - simply denying that something happened the way it is presented is, IMO not inciting hatred, but simply asking a rather tasteless question. There is also a problem with defense - since these laws prohibit the discussion of the events and proof of conspiracy to liquidate a population, the defence council cannot present evidence. This is flawed - while the intention may be sound - the result will no doubltedly cause a backlash - which it is already doing.

[Rue]

Oh Buffy in response;

"I think that discussion of the events leading up to and surrounding the Holocaust shouldn't be illegal to discuss - ie truth needs no laws to support it. "

Totally agree with you and so does the law we are talking about. It doesn't forbid discussion of the holocaust.

You stated;

"What isn't clear is exactly how many (of all groups - not just those of Jewish ethnic origins) were actually murdered in the ways described. "

It is Buffy. I will try answer that in another post. I am doing it with utmost respect. I know you are saying something genuine and I really want to make an effort to give you a good answer to think about.

Yous tated;

"I also find it rather crass that virtually never are the other victims even spoken about - it's all about the Jews. "

Again Buffy with due respect the above is just not true. The holocaust memorials in Washington, D.C. and in Israel (Yad Vashem) and the holocaust studies courses in every university you want to discuss, particularly those created and drafted by Jews, make it a deliberate point to discuss what happened to gays, communists, 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, Romanoes, and those Christians (specific Catholics, Lutherans and other Christians) who were killed in camps. It is a crucial part of the holocaust experience to Jews just as is celebrating and remembering the "righteous gentiles" who saved Jews. Your above statement is a subjective one and with due respect Buffy I think it comes from the same place as you having the impression the holocaust was exaggerated or you can not believe it happened as you think Jews state it.

What of the others? Were any reparations made to them? Are they even mantioned, acknowledged and mourned with equal fervour? Sadly, no. Add to that the Soviet death tolls that make Hitler's folly look mild by comparison - yet again nary a word. I guess some genocides are more 'special' than others eh Rue?

You stated;

"Now before your head explodes, let me state that my own family tree was well represented in the Auschwitz records - having lost a good number of my own extended family to the concentration camps and the effects of WW2."

No its precisely why my head won't explode Buffy. Because if as you say some of your family were killed in Auschwitz you would know for a fact that your comments about Jews only discussing Jews in the holocaust is not true. What I do think is you are being influenced by those with a specific political agenda and I will take the time in the next response to provide you some sites and all I ask is before you buy into what you are now buying into you take the time, and find out truthfully if what you are saying is accurate. Think about it Buffy. To make a generalized statement that Jews are not remembering non Jews in the holocaust is one issue, the other is your doubting whether 6 million really died and whether its been exaggerated.

If as you say you had family that died in Aushwitz then maybe you need to go to the memorial in Washington, D.C. or Yad Vashem and see for yourself rather what is being said and remembered.

As far as those third generation Germans who are not aware - horsehooey!! They are all quite aware of what a certain leader of their country did 70 odd years ago - and in many ways - even though they weren't even born then - are still paying for it.

Nonsense. The Jewish community in Germany is doing quite well thanks, in fact immigration to Germany by Jews has been rising over the last years - yep lots of Israeli Jews are reclaiming their German citizenship and leaving - for living in Germany for them is preferrable to living in Israel. (I also have friends who have done this - made aliyah then woke up and went back!!!). Also, this isn't about 'hate' speech - there are laws already for incitement to violence - a far cry from asking pertinent questions about the start of the cleansing and genocide. Rue, as the story goes - once there were 'gas chambers' all over, then when it was unconfirmable in the lands of Germany, the camps which were the 'death' camps were all on outside territory - esp Poland. Even the numbers at Auschwitz have been reduced from 4 million down to just over a million (Jews and non-Jews alike). To even mention this is a crime - why??? It begs the question - why???

Does asking these questions diminish the horror of the Holocaust? Of course not! How can it? Does it suddenly turn Hitler et al into good guys? Of course not! Don't be silly.

So, I would wager given your full support of these anti-speech and anti-thought laws that you wouldn't have a problem with banning any kind of research into the genocide of North American Natives eh? Since it might offend them in some way? How about a nice law banning the denial of the existance of Christ? That's a good one! Hey - lets make a good little law which will stop all research into the Ukranian Holodomar while we're at it. See where this is going? (Of course a good little law criminalising any research into the historical accuracy of the Crusades might also be on the agenda!!).

Do you see a problem here??

*If* they are inciting hatred then charge them with that - fine. However - simply denying that something happened the way it is presented is, IMO not inciting hatred, but simply asking a rather tasteless question. There is also a problem with defense - since these laws prohibit the discussion of the events and proof of conspiracy to liquidate a population, the defence council cannot present evidence. This is flawed - while the intention may be sound - the result will no doubltedly cause a backlash - which it is already doing.

[Rue]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/jews-central/

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/1994-ely-abir.html

In regards to your suggesting holocaust education focuses only on Jews Buffy I offer you just these sites but there are quite literally hundreds thats how in each and every holocaust studies program is examination and discussion of what happened to non Jews and how the holocaust is related to other genocides and racism.

Under the ushmm I gave you deliberate specific references to non Jews that are typical of how Jewish academics when teaching the holocaust refer to non Jews.

The Simon Weisenthal Centre makes very clear and specific reference to non Jews go look on their web-site.

I have enclosed the B'nai B'Rith and Asper Foundation web-sites-why don't you go and look for yourself how Jews deal with the holocaust and non Jews.

I gave you the Yad Vashem site and a site listing all the holocaust study programs in the world.

With due respect Buffy to inger Jews only discuss ourselves when discussing the holocaust is your subjective feeling based on some b.s. you are being filled by people with an anti-Zionist agenda-the same people who deny the holocaust happened and then argue the holocaust is used to justify dishonestly Zionism and a state for Israel.

I gave you the Nurmerberg site Buffy.

Here it is pure and simple Buffy-you want to question the holocaust-then ask questions-use it as a political platform to for a political agenda that is hidden, then you get challenged.

The evidence for the holocaust has been deliberately preserved precisely because people like you will be manipulated to forget and revise history and enable it to happen again but hopefully others will not make such presumptions until they try read outside their comfort zone or preconceived beliefs.

Will you do that? Do you expect me to believe you have family that died in Aushwitz and you believe Jews only talk of themselves when they discuss the holocaust?

Get real Buffy. Try that on someone else. You know I know better. You know I know that comment was an aside and you don't really believe it. Am I wrong?

http://www.ushmm.org/education/foreducators/will/

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=...duleId=10005378

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=...duleId=10007271

http://facultystaff.vwc.edu/~dgraf/holocaus.htm

http://humanrights.asperfoundation.com/site/index.html

http://www.bnaibrith.ca/league/hh-teachers/educan04.html

http://www1.yadvashem.org/education/task/home_task.html

http://www.libraries.iub.edu/index.php?pageId=4389

[Rue]

Buffy you know this Zionist state you question and the essays you read denying the holocaust happened or it was exaggerated it to justify Zionism-you buy into that, then if you did have relatives that perished you dishonour their memory.

Here go to this Israel government site if you want to know how Jews remember non Jews who saved them during the holocaust:

http://www.israel.org/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_...20the%20Nations

You want a short cut go to Wikepedia-Righteous Among Nation which is a synoposis of main article for Righteous Among the Nations the title awarded to non Jews for saving Jews in the holocaust.

Please Buffy think. Do you really believe Jews do not remember the death of non Jews whether they persished in the camps or died trying to save them? Come on Buffy. Challenge yourself to look past such rhetoric and use the memory of the holocaust to prevent intolerance not promote justification for a political agenda to try portray a certain group as bad.

· Righteous Among the Nations · List of Righteous Among the Nations by countryA· Khaled Abdelwahhab · Viorica Agarici · André Troeme · Joseph André · Per Anger · Vilmos Apor · Saide ArifovaB· Karl Barth · Władysław Bartoszewski · Albert Battel · Princess Alice of Battenberg · Albert Bedane · Victor Bodson · Marc Boegner · Corrie ten Boom · Dirk Boonstra · Friedrich BornC· Chinese Righteous Among the Nations · Józef Zwonarz · Charles Coward · Croatian Righteous Among the NationsD· Archbishop Damaskinos · Danish resistance movement · Luiz Martins de Souza Dantas · Jan Dobraczyński · Hans von Dohnanyi · Žarko Dolinar · Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz · Dutch resistanceE· Gottfried von Einem · Elisabeth of Bavaria (1876-1965)F· Vincenzo Fagiolo · Per Faye-Hansen · Maria Fedecka · Harald Feller · Mieczysław Fogg F cont.· Frank Foley · Varian FryG· Andree Geulen-Herscovici · Miep Gies · Elsa Gindler · Karl Gröger · Paul Grüninger · Irene Gut OpdykeH· Robert Havemann · Helen of Greece and Denmark · Feng-Shan HoI· Henryk IwańskiJ· Jean-Baptiste Janssens · Pope John XXIIIK· Aleksander Kamiński · Constantin Karadja · Jan Karski · Necdet Kent · Béla Király · Stefan Korboński · Zofia Kossak-SzczuckaL· Valdemar Langlet · Latvian resistance movement · Le Chambon-sur-Lignon · Jerzy Jan Lerski · Bernhard Lichtenberg · Jānis Lipke · List of people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust · Carl LutzM· Hermann Maas · Père Marie-Benoît · Áron Márton · Uku Masing · Andrzej Miłosz · Czesław MiłoszN· Dorothea Neff · Yvonne Nevéjean · Nieuwlande · Algoth Niska P· Giovanni Palatucci · Pietro Palazzini · Pan Jun Shun · Tadeusz Pankiewicz · Giorgio Perlasca · Dimitar Peshev · Frits Philips · Karl Plagge · Traian PopoviciR· Paul Ramadier · Henri Reynders · Angelo Rotta · Konrad RudnickiS· Sára Salkaházi · Ángel Sanz Briz · Oskar Schindler · Anton Schmid · Irena Sendler · Martha Sharp · Henryk Sławik · Raoul Şorban · Aristides de Sousa Mendes · Suzanne Spaak · Chiune Sugihara · Jerzy SzackiT· Pierre-Marie Théas · André Trocmé · Magda TrocméU· Selâhattin ÜlkümenW· Raoul Wallenberg · Armin T. Wegner · Johan Hendrik Weidner · Rudolf Weigl · Joop Westerweel · Henryk WolińskiZ· Jerzy ZagórskiŻ· Jan Żabiński

[Wilber]

Yes, believers have to prove their beliefs if they are to be taken seriously. They make the claim, so the burden is on them. Non-believers don't have to prove anything. How do you prove a negative?

I agree that non believers don't have to prove anything but those who actually maintain that a god does not exist are just as obligated to prove their position as a believer.

The lack of evidence is not proof. You can't say to someone that because they believe something they can't prove, they are wrong, then turn around and say that you don't need proof in order to maintain you are right. If you say a god does not exist, you are also making a claim and are just as obligated to back it up.

[jazzer]

If you say a god does not exist, you are also making a claim and are just as obligated to back it up.

Ridiculous. I also don't believe in UFO's or the Loch Ness monster. So I have to back up my opinion of disbelief everytime someone comes up with a whacky theory? If my senses can't detect it, I don't need to provide proof of it's nonexistence.

[M.Dancer]

Ridiculous. I also don't believe in UFO's or the Loch Ness monster. So I have to back up my opinion of disbelief everytime someone comes up with a whacky theory? If my senses can't detect it, I don't need to provide proof of it's nonexistence.

Proving the Loch Ness thingy doesn't exist is as easy as proving there are no goldfish in an empty bowl.