JerrySeinfeld Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 http://www.kpho.com/news/14755890/detail.html# KHARTOUM, Sudan -- A British teacher who was jailed in Sudan after she allowed her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad" is on her way home.A spokesman for the British Embassy in Khartoum said he can confirm that Gillian Gibbons left Sudan after her pardon by the country's president. She had initially been sentenced to 15 days in jail and deportation for insulting Islam. Would you ever see someone in our society fervently defend our common values as these people screaming for execution defend theirs? Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 http://www.kpho.com/news/14755890/detail.html#Would you ever see someone in our society fervently defend our common values as these people screaming for execution defend theirs? No. Mainly because our common values don't include mass hysteria, religious extremism and abject stupidity. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Posted December 4, 2007 No. Mainly because our common values don't include mass hysteria, religious extremism and abject stupidity. Indeed - which, I would think - would make it even more compelling for US to defend our common values instead of ditching them for every new mutli-culti fad. Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 Indeed - which, I would think - would make it even more compelling for US to defend our common values instead of ditching them for every new mutli-culti fad. So you are pro abject stupidity then? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
AngusThermopyle Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 Would you ever see someone in our society fervently defend our common values as these people screaming for execution defend theirs? I would hope not. It's good to defend ones culture, up to a certain point. Going beyond that undefined point starts one on the path to zealotry and fanatasiscm. Do we really want to bring ourselves down to that level? I believe if we were to do that we would be changing our culture completely and as such wouldn't really be defending it at all. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Posted December 4, 2007 I would hope not. It's good to defend ones culture, up to a certain point. Going beyond that undefined point starts one on the path to zealotry and fanatasiscm. Do we really want to bring ourselves down to that level? I believe if we were to do that we would be changing our culture completely and as such wouldn't really be defending it at all. You're kind of missing it. If one culture is confident it's beliefs are the correct one, and defends itself adamantly as this, and the other culture is all about accomodation, what do you think happens when the accomodating culture invites the supremly confident agressive one in? Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 Oh, okay, sorry. Well we all know what happens, it's happened before. The strong and adamant culture will absorb the weaker one. In Canada we are becoming a very weak culture. It seems there are less and less people who would be willing to fight for their country with each passing year. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 4, 2007 Author Report Posted December 4, 2007 Oh, okay, sorry. Well we all know what happens, it's happened before. The strong and adamant culture will absorb the weaker one. Especially when the weaker one depends upon importing the stronger one to supoprt it's social programs, and espcielly when the weaker one has developed a penchant for self-flagellation. Quote
August1991 Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 Would you ever see someone in our society fervently defend our common values as these people screaming for execution defend theirs?As M. Dancer implied, are you suggesting that we take cultural lessons from the Sudanese?If one culture is confident it's beliefs are the correct one, and defends itself adamantly as this, and the other culture is all about accomodation, what do you think happens when the accomodating culture invites the supremly confident agressive one in?Do you really see culture as some kind of species of dandelion?Several guys flew planes into big buildings killing several thousand. Such people represent a military threat because of the devastation a terrorist attack can incur. Let's not lose sight of the true threat here. Western culture, from Shakespeare to Britney Spears and from Leibnitz to Cedric the Entertainer, has survived greater attempts to undermine it. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 You're mistaking a strong culture with a culture full of outspoken zealots. Immigrants come to North America and their culture melts away generation after generation. That's because our culture is stronger. I've been trying for years to get people to disprove that, and they invariably come back with a news clipping of someone being beheaded in Indonesia as proof that our culture is weaker. Not true. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 4, 2007 Report Posted December 4, 2007 And also... what Auguste said... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
M.Dancer Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 You're kind of missing it. If one culture is confident it's beliefs are the correct one, and defends itself adamantly as this, and the other culture is all about accomodation, what do you think happens when the accomodating culture invites the supremly confident agressive one in? They get jobs and have children. The children watch MTV, eat McD on the side, get married and become North Americans.....just like you did. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Posted December 5, 2007 They get jobs and have children. The children watch MTV, eat McD on the side, get married and become North Americans.....just like you did. See that's the problem: we equate restaurants and TV with culture - but they equate strong underlying values and religion with culture. Remember one thing: the perpetrators of the London tube bombings ate fish 'n' chips and played cricket and dresssed in bad argyll sweaters - many were second or third generation "brits" by your definition. The problem is multiculturalism is essentially a void. There is nothing for them to assimilate to, no common values we all defend - other than where they might get a quick bite. So they find their identity elsewhere. As for August's comment about taking cultural lessons from the Sudanese - I certainly do wish our society had as much confidence and adamancy about our values as they do theirs - which is why we probably won't end up surviving. Quote
trex Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 (edited) Tolerance and freedom are the principle virtures of multiculturalism. You can live here and enjoy your own culture, and practice your religion, as long as you tolerate the same freedoms for others. If not, its off to jail you go. That's what living in Canada is all about, and that's what the free world wants us to continue to be. Edited December 5, 2007 by trex Quote
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Posted December 5, 2007 Tolerance and freedom are the principle virtures of multiculturalism. You can live here and enjoy your own culture, and practice your religion, as long as you tolerate the same freedoms for others. If not, its off to jail you go.That's what living in Canada is all about, and that's what the free world wants us to continue to be. How far does "tolerance" go? Are you willing to tolerate the intolerant? One of the fundamental flaws of the "tolerance" model is being exposed by the increased presence of Islam in today's multiculti countries: that being the contradiction of tolerances. Do you "tolerate" homosexuality? Do you "tolerate" women's equality? How do you reconcile this with your tolerance for cultures which do NOT tolerate homosexualite, women's rights etc.? Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 Do you "tolerate" homosexuality? Do you "tolerate" women's equality?How do you reconcile this with your tolerance for cultures which do NOT tolerate homosexualite, women's rights etc.? The law. They have no choice and if they find our culture and ;laws intolerable, they will move. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
trex Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 How far does "tolerance" go?Are you willing to tolerate the intolerant? One of the fundamental flaws of the "tolerance" model is being exposed by the increased presence of Islam in today's multiculti countries: that being the contradiction of tolerances. Do you "tolerate" homosexuality? Do you "tolerate" women's equality? How do you reconcile this with your tolerance for cultures which do NOT tolerate homosexualite, women's rights etc.? The laws of Canada are completely clear, nothing there to be confused about. All people in this country live under those laws. Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 The more confident you are the less liekly you are to be offended be real or imaginary slights. I would say the reactions by Muslim mobs over things like cartoons or teddy bears are more symptomatic of a lack of confidence that the opposite. And given that many of them are realiszing what primitive societies they have created for themselves, having a lack of confidence is not in the least bit surprising. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Michael Hardner Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 The problem is multiculturalism is essentially a void. There is nothing for them to assimilate to, no common values we all defend - other than where they might get a quick bite. So they find their identity elsewhere. Jerry, What you're basically saying is that religion has declined, then. What else constitutes culture, other than religion, or ... food, the arts and so forth. I can't see any difference between any of the religions, with respect to your definition of 'strong confident culture'. If you're advocating a general return to religious values, then so be it. What are you advocating ? Some kind of pan-Canadian official value system to be taught in schools and agreed upon by all ? Is that the constitution ? If not, what is it ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Posted December 5, 2007 The laws of Canada are completely clear, nothing there to be confused about. All people in this country live under those laws. The law can be changed and in fact it does so all the time to reflect the fad du jour. The problem with your thinking: anytime we "accept" something new, we simply change the law. If you don't think so, take a look at what's happening in Europe RIGHT NOW, where the acceptanec of Sharia isn't being scoffed at, it's being openly debated and considered. Quote
trex Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 Yes the laws can be changed in a democracy, by the will of the people. That's what a democracy is all about. No need to be frightened... Quote
JerrySeinfeld Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Posted December 5, 2007 Yes the laws can be changed in a democracy, by the will of the people. That's what a democracy is all about.No need to be frightened... Oh? Demographically, the concept of a free society held secure by the Americans may well turn out to have been but a glimpse of brightness in a long history of drudgery...look at what's happening in Europe. And is THIS really the kind of "democracy" you want? Quote
trex Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 If you want any credibility I wouldn't recommend showing a link to that kind of website. Thats certainly not the kind of website I would read. Every page is screaming about scary muslims... and the links at the top are just a sad joke. Come on, I feel like I'm wasting my time discussing this with you after that. Quote
Higgly Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 You know, there is this problem with sacred cows... In India, cows walk the streets unmolested. The idea of eating a cow is so abhorent that there is one menu item that's drastically different at McDonalds India... (warning - heavy loading and popups) .... Think about it. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
Black Dog Posted December 5, 2007 Report Posted December 5, 2007 If one culture is confident it's beliefs are the correct one, and defends itself adamantly as this, and the other culture is all about accomodation, what do you think happens when the accomodating culture invites the supremly confident agressive one in? I'm just wondering something: the history of mankind is full of instances where populations have shifted and migrated. Are there any examples of "strong" cultures squashing "weak" cultures when the purveyors of said "strong" culture are the minority and are weaker in every other respect to the majority? Sounds a bit iffy to me. Quote
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