China has refused nine Us Navy Ships entry

[bush_cheney2004]

Understanding loud and clear and its important that the US military understand loud and clear that there's no room for you here now or ever!! I doubt China will be the only country to not allow a US ship in its port. Makes one wonder how the Olympics are going to ended up!!!

Guess again....recent US Navy port call in Hai Phong, Vietnam! The USA used to lay mines there.

Operating in the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean, the U.S. 7th Fleet is the largest of the forward-deployed U.S. fleets, with approximately 50 ships, 120 aircraft and 20,000 Sailors and Marines assigned at any given time.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=33273

[Guest American Woman]

Understanding loud and clear and its important that the US military understand loud and clear that there's no room for you here now or ever!! I doubt China will be the only country to not allow a US ship in its port. Makes one wonder how the Olympics are going to ended up!!!

Actually, China changed its mind about the Kitty Hawk and said it could dock, but the U.S. said no thanks at that point. Like I said, I don't think this will bode well for China, especially in light of the Olympics. I too am starting to wonder how the Olympics will end up now.

[Lazarus]

Actually, China changed its mind about the Kitty Hawk and said it could dock, but the U.S. said no thanks at that point. Like I said, I don't think this will bode well for China, especially in light of the Olympics. I too am starting to wonder how the Olympics will end up now.

Oh please. Doesn't bode well for China? How do you figure? This just a tempest in a the diplomatic teapot. It's not going to affect the Being Olympics at all. What? You think the US Olympic team is going to throw a hissy fit and boycott the games? You think US tourist who have been planning a once in a lifetime trip and who have already spent thousands of dollars, much of which is non-refundable in venue tickets, flight tickets and hotel reservations are going to cancel? Get real. Hell, the vast majority of people don't even know this has happened.

So China spank the US a little bit, big deal, that's the nature of international relationship. Actually it not that surprising really. China with some justification sees Taiwan as a break away rebellious Province and of course gets a tad bit pissed when outsiders meddle in her affairs, especially went it comes to arming the rebels. Hell, could you imagine what the American reaction would if say either Alaska or Hawaii declared independence and broke away from the US and a nation such as Russia or China supplied them with military aid, modern armaments, and the like?

China is also America's banker, and is basically financing the war in Iraq and keeping the US government afloat. If China calls in her loans, America is fucked three ways to Sunday and the US Government knows it. So, yeah the noise machine will crank out protest and howls of outrage, but that's all. Nothing has changed, nothing else will happen. It'll be business as usual and the Olympics will carry on as planned.

[Guest American Woman]

Oh please. Doesn't bode well for China? How do you figure?

I figure it doesn't make China look good. I figure China knows this too, which is why they changed their mind and decided (too late) to let the Kitty Hawk dock in Hong Kong.

I didn't say this was going to affect the Olympics, but it makes me wonder, if this is the kind of decsion China is making in light of the Olympics, how that could affect them. I didn't say anything about the U.S. Olympic team throwing a hissy fit. Never even entered my mind. But I know there was protest to China holding the Olympics, so I do wonder how it will ultimately go down. I do wonder if it will affect some who were on the fence about it. I don't know why that would make you angry.

Edited December 2, 2007 by American Woman

[Higgly]

Two of the ships turned away were seeking shelter from a storm at sea, so that wasn't cool. There's speculation that all of the ships were turned away because of arms deals with Taiwan and Congress giving a medal to the Dalai Lama. The refusal was unusual according to what I've read, especially in that no reason was given. Docking in Hong Kong for Thanksgiving had been planned months in advance and hundreds of the troops' family members had flown to Hong Kong for the holiday.

Storm at Sea, I understand. But we are talking two ships, not an entire battle group. Under Maritime law, these are exigent conditions and they only apply until the storm has passed. Thanskgiving turkey is another thing altogether. It does not matter why they refuse access. It's their harbour. Get used to it.

Again, I have to ask. Why is it that you expect China to grant unlimited access by US warships to Hong Kong harbour? Would you grant unlimited access to the port of New York by Chinese warships on Chinese New Year?

What am I missing here? This is a very strange discussion.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Lazarus]

I figure it doesn't make China look good. I figure China knows this too, which is why they changed their mind and decided (too late) to let the Kitty Hawk dock in Hong Kong.

I didn't say this was going to affect the Olympics, but it makes me wonder, if this is the kind of decsion China is making in light of the Olympics, how that could affect them. I didn't say anything about the U.S. Olympic team throwing a hissy fit. Never even entered my mind. But I know there was protest to China holding the Olympics, so I do wonder how it will ultimately go down. I do wonder if it will affect some who were on the fence about it. I don't know why that would make you angry.

I'm not angry in the least, in fact I find this whole thing rather laughable, watching Americans get in a tizzy over a perceived slight. Just goes to prove that it take very little to ruffle America's collective feathers and get them squawking in moral outrage.

Protests against China being awarded the game? So what? There have been protest in damn near every nation and against every nation for being awarded the Olympic games. I live in Vancouver, host of the 2010 Winter Games and protest against us being awarded them have happened by a number of varying groups.

Short of launching a nuclear strike on Taiwan or invading neighbouring nations, there is very little that will affect the Beijing Games and I doubt that this little tiff even crossed their minds Oylmpic's wise. They probably figured they had made their point and reversed their decision. As I said before, given that China is now America's banker, she can do pretty much anything she likes without fear of major repercussions.

[bush_cheney2004]

Short of launching a nuclear strike on Taiwan or invading neighbouring nations, there is very little that will affect the Beijing Games....

Guess again...all they need to do is screw up another bird flu / SARS scenario like Canada did (in Toronto) and losing Olympics non-refundables will be the least concern, and not just by the Americans.

Edited December 3, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not angry in the least, in fact I find this whole thing rather laughable, watching Americans get in a tizzy over a perceived slight. Just goes to prove that it take very little to ruffle America's collective feathers and get them squawking in moral outrage.

Huh?? Who's in a tizzy over it? Whose feathers are ruffled? Who's squawking in moral outrage?

Protests against China being awarded the game? So what? There have been protest in damn near every nation and against every nation for being awarded the Olympic games. I live in Vancouver, host of the 2010 Winter Games and protest against us being awarded them have happened by a number of varying groups.

I simply pointed out a fact, k? There have been protests against China being awarded the Olympics. Worldwide. So I'm not talking about "a number of varying groups." Therefore, I do wonder how it will all play out. So sue me for wondering.

Short of launching a nuclear strike on Taiwan or invading neighbouring nations, there is very little that will affect the Beijing Games and I doubt that this little tiff even crossed their minds Oylmpic's wise. They probably figured they had made their point and reversed their decision. As I said before, given that China is now America's banker, she can do pretty much anything she likes without fear of major repercussions.

Once again. I wasn't referring to this specific incident as such. I'm not up for repeating myself, so re-read what I wrote. If you still don't get it, oh well.

[Higgly]

May I respectfully point out this Wikipedia article. Not an unassailable reference, I grant you, but please take a few moments if you are serious about understanding the sentiments of the Chinese regarding Hong Kong.

You may also want to research the burning of the Chinese Imperial Library by the British. Don't think of it as a library. Think of it as the very ancient memory of an entire cultre. Perhaps comparable to the burning of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the pulverising of the Rosetta Stone...

[Lazarus]

Guess again...all they need is to do is screw up another bird flu / SARS scenario like Canada did (in Toronto) and losing Olympics non-refundables will be the least concern, and not just by the Americans.

and why do I get the feeling you would take immense joy if that happened?

Edited December 2, 2007 by Lazarus

[Higgly]

Guess again...all they need is to do is screw up another bird flu / SARS scenario like Canada did (in Toronto) and losing Olympics non-refundables will be the least concern, and not just by the Americans.

And where did BSE come from? Are we really going to stoop so low as to politicize disease?

[bush_cheney2004]

and why do I get the feeling you would take immense joy if that happened?

Perhaps because you get "immense joy when they "ruffle America's collective feathers and get them squawking in moral outrage". Just a guess.....

[bush_cheney2004]

And where did BSE come from? Are we really going to stoop so low as to politicize disease?

Disease is already politicized....see HIV/AIDS.

[Higgly]

Perhaps because you get "immense joy when they "ruffle America's collective feathers and get them squawking in moral outrage". Just a guess.....

BC2K4, have you read the link I provided on the Opium Wars? Have you read up about the sacking of the Imperial Library? It is not about ruffling America's feathers as much as it is about the fundamentals of Chinese history. This is an ancient culture that has not been treated particularly well by the west. You might also want to read into the story of Marco Polo.

You do not have to agree with me, but please take a few moments to at least read what I have posted. You can shout and wave yor arms all you like, but you are not going to change Chinese history. It is not about politics. It is about history.

[Alexandra]

I'm not angry in the least, in fact I find this whole thing rather laughable, watching Americans get in a tizzy over a perceived slight. Just goes to prove that it take very little to ruffle America's collective feathers and get them squawking in moral outrage.

That's what is so laughable. So many Canadians in a "perpetual tizzy over Americans, perceiving slights and squawking in moral outrage over the mere existence of Americans"! What is laugh-out-loud funny is that this poster is so oblivious to the fact that as a Canadian he fails to 'perceive' the irony of his clear antipathy for Americans in his posts.

I live in Vancouver, host of the 2010 Winter Games and protest against us being awarded them have happened by a number of varying groups.

What groups have protested against Vancouver's 2010 games? Other than all of the local B.C. unions, civil servants and the usual whiners who protest every little dollar spent on something other than their 'special interest group's special interest'? If you have a list other than the foregoing please list them, enquiring minds would like to know.

As I said before, given that China is now America's banker, she can do pretty much anything she likes without fear of major repercussions.

Actually, the foregoing comment is not true. Perhaps nothing more than wishful thinking from a Canadian "who may be in a tizzy over Americans."

`

[bush_cheney2004]

BC2K4, have you read the link I provided on the Opium Wars? Have you read up about the sacking of the Imperial Library? It is not about ruffling America's feathers as much as it is about the fundamentals of Chinese history. This is an ancient culture that has not been treated particularly well by the west. You might also want to read into the story of Marco Polo.

No one denies it is an acncient culture.....but seeing as how things have gone in Tibet, and even in China during Three Gorges Dam construction, I won't shed a tear. Marco Polo is exactly the kind of boilerplate, Eurocentric view I wish to avoid.

You do not have to agree with me, but please take a few moments to at least read what I have posted. You can shout and wave yor arms all you like, but you are not going to change Chinese history. It is not about politics. It is about history.

History is in my rear view mirror.

[Higgly]

No one denies it is an acncient culture.....but seeing as how things have gone in Tibet, and even in China during Three Gorges Dam construction, I won't shed a tear. Marco Polo is exactly the kind of boilerplate, Eurocentric view I wish to avoid.

History is in my rear view mirror.

Too easy, BC2K4. Too easy. I am not saying that history explains away everything the current government in Beijing might do, but it does help to explain their attitude towards the West.

There is hope on China. Go to your local library and see if you can find the October 13-19, 2007 Issue of The Economist. The amount of detailed information about the Chinese economy and social issues in that issue is astonishing if you consider how closed the country was only 10 years ago. This is truly a great nation emerging, but very carefully.

We should be engaged in a courtship with China, but baby steps every bit of the way....

[bush_cheney2004]

...We should be engaged in a courtship with China, but baby steps every bit of the way....

Right...we should be sensitive to China even though it has completely sold out to the "West". Advertising for ED pills on the Great Wall can't be far behind.

Trudeau and Nixon already took the baby steps......

[Higgly]

Right...we should be sensitive to China even though it has completely sold out to the "West". Advertising for ED pills on the Great Wall can't be far behind.

Trudeau and Nixon already took the baby steps......

You want the Chinese to completely adopt our culture and legal system carte blanche? Would you do that?

[bush_cheney2004]

You want the Chinese to completely adopt our culture and legal system carte blanche? Would you do that?

I don't care what the Chinese do, because whatever it is, we have already done it. When I was in Shanghai, any "fears" about an emerging China were laid to rest. They are even making the same mistakes despite having much "history" to study.

[Lazarus]

History is in my rear view mirror.

Which explains why you as a nation and a people keep repeating the same mistakes from the past.

[Higgly]

I don't care what the Chinese do, because whatever it is, we have already done it.

Not with a billion plus people we haven't. Try to take to few moments to see the world from their eyes. Imagine the challenges of bootstrapping a basically illiterate economy into the 21st century. China needs to hear from us on human rights, no question, but you cannot expect them to suddenly turn into middle America.

[bush_cheney2004]

Which explains why you as a nation and a people keep repeating the same mistakes from the past.

...and I suppose other nations never make the same "mistakes"? The USA doesn't make mistakes....it makes choices. Save the guilt trip for like minded folks.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not with a billion plus people we haven't. Try to take to few moments to see the world from their eyes. Imagine the challenges of bootstrapping a basically illiterate economy into the 21st century. China needs to hear from us on human rights, no question, but you cannot expect them to suddenly turn into middle America.

I don't want them to turn into Middle America...but if they do...just that they don't pretend to be different like some Canadians while living the exact same way as Americans. People vote with their feet....as in immigration to America (or Canada). Let's just say that China suffers a serious immigration trade imbalance, and for good reasons.

[xul]

It seems China did give a reason.

According the information I has just searched from some Chinese unofficial web site, in earlier 1997 American government and Chinese Government reached an agreement that allow American warships making port call Hong Kong after Britain return Hong Kong to China, but each port call must be granted by Chinese government. This means China has the right to refuse any American warship port call Hong Kong.

Chinese government allow these port call because these port call had kept for many years when British controled Hong Kong and if Chinese government stoped these port call some Hong Kong tourism industry would loss some interests.

Usually Chinese government may refuse these port call several times when American government sells weapon to Taiwan and American government knows the game. This is not the first time American warship was refused by China for the same reason.

This is why I think the event was odd. Why these families were still sent to Hong Kong? Was it a mistake, or some American officials wanted using them to blackmail Chinese government?---I don't think the second point was the truth, so I guess American government was just forgetting Kitty Hawk and Thanksgiving Day when they came out with the weapon deal.

I think the action of Chinese government is correct and appropriate. They refused the port call first by political reason and then granted it several hours later by humanitarian reason, they properly distinguished the confliction between governments and the interests of these sailor families and Hong Kong citizens. American navy said the carrier could not come back is caused of weather. But which kind of weather could avoid a battle group going to Hong Kong while could not object it going to Japan? It's obviously that American navy sacrificed their sailor families' interests only for their "face".

I don't think this made China look good.

Perhaps, but by which way would China be looked good in American medium?

Even if China sent 1 million troop to Iraq helping America, perhaps that would cheer American one month. Because the second month those Chinese soldiers would make all mistakes that American soldiers did---misshooting civilians, mistreatment prisoners, misbombing allies....., and I guess everyone here could imagine how American medium would condemn "brute Chinese". So China would become more bad than doing nothing.

Edited December 3, 2007 by xul