Environment

[Topaz]

Anyone with any common sense, would know that Baird was full of hot air today in question period. His defense for not getting down to business as far as the environment is concerned was that the world can't make head way on greenhouse gases unless India, the US, China, the big polluters are on board. Well, the US may come on board once Bush is gone, India is turning into the western world's manufacturing centre, which pollution is only going to worse. China, I have read that it is concerned about its pollution, but who knows with China. The point is they need to bring gases down here in this country first and under Harper that will only happened after the oil sands are done doing their thing! I hope the provinces take the challenge over, and show the Feds what CAN be done, we'll only gain if we do.

[margrace]

Harper doesn't care what happens to us, as long as we pay pay pay. He has no use for the common man, he is a clone of George W. and his ilk so what is the use of debating this, kick the silly you know what out. and put in someone who does care.

[no queenslave]

Harper doesn't care what happens to us, as long as we pay pay pay. He has no use for the common man, he is a clone of George W. and his ilk so what is the use of debating this, kick the silly you know what out. and put in someone who does care.

something like going into a room where all 10 people are smoking. now you decide it is not healthy so you put out your cigarette. Now who do you think will be kicked out of the room; complaining you , or the other smokers? We are all in the world together, and you complaining, as a minority will acomplish what?

[Shakeyhands]

If someone doesn't start it no one will follow. Whats the use in throwing your hands up in the air and saying 'oh well'?

[trex]

Kyoto as I understod it was an economic model to encourage development of new green technology. The idea was that industrialized nations could help third world countries who are in the process of modernizing themselves, like India and China whom we know are demanding huge amounts of hydrocarbons to fuel their industries. They have so many people, and the shittiest cars that blow so much smog it can be seen from outer space. This is where the carbon credits idea comes in, that a country which cannot reduce its own emmissions can buy carbon credits from another more modernized country, who in exchange develops new technology to help them reduce their carbon output.

The point was never that India and China has to "go first", they simply can't. And considering that we, over many decades have nicely helped outselves to the oil to build our fine nations and standard of living, they won't deny themselves. They feel they have a right to do the same infrasturcture building. That just makes it all the more important for us to show leadership.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is where the carbon credits idea comes in, that a country which cannot reduce its own emmissions can buy carbon credits from another more modernized country, who in exchange develops new technology to help them reduce their carbon output.

Not the way I heard the Kyoto Fairy Tale....the undeveloped nations would SELL carbon credits to the developed nations. If it was your version we would be all over that and a bag of chips.

The point was never that India and China has to "go first", they simply can't. And considering that we, over many decades have nicely helped outselves to the oil to build our fine nations and standard of living, they won't deny themselves. They feel they have a right to do the same infrasturcture building. That just makes it all the more important for us to show leadership.

They do...but they will have to compete on the same hydrocarbon playing field without the Kyoto fix being in. No free lunch.....

[trex]

Not the way I heard the Kyoto Fairy Tale....the undeveloped nations would SELL carbon credits to the developed nations.

Technically any country that has a surplus in credits (by exceeding their target reductions) can sell the extra on the market. The idea was to make carbon reductions a profitable industry. But such reduction is unlikely to happen in India or China, hence the reason they themselves don't want to buy in. And any new technology to aid in lowering emmissions likely would not be coming from there. It would make sense for us to go it alone without them, we can develop and sell the technology to big polluters.

[bush_cheney2004]

...It would make sense for us to go it alone without them, we can develop and sell the technology to big polluters.

Canada already has developed such technology (CANDU nuclear reactor / fuel cycle). However, China, like Ontario (Nanticoke), finds it more economical to burn coal. And that is what will ultimately determine how this hot air fairy tale ends...economics.

[Topaz]

Canada already has developed such technology (CANDU nuclear reactor / fuel cycle). However, China, like Ontario (Nanticoke), finds it more economical to burn coal. And that is what will ultimately determine how this hot air fairy tale ends...economics.

BC, IF you didn't know the Ontario gov't was promised money from the Martin gov't to shut down the coal plants and build nuclear. BUT... oil supporter Harper came along and cancelled the deal. Proving again, Harper doesn't care about the environment in any province!!

[bush_cheney2004]

BC, IF you didn't know the Ontario gov't was promised money from the Martin gov't to shut down the coal plants and build nuclear. BUT... oil supporter Harper came along and cancelled the deal. Proving again, Harper doesn't care about the environment in any province!!

The "Martin government" was turfed by Canadians....so were the pretend policies of shutting down Nanticoke, the worst polluting power plant in all of North America. (cough-cough)

[Topaz]

The "Martin government" was turfed by Canadians....so were the pretend policies of shutting down Nanticoke, the worst polluting power plant in all of North America. (cough-cough)

Let face it, voters sometime make mistakes when voting, like voting in Bush, voting Harris, and Harper could be on the list. Today, he's using getting the Big polluters signed on, and he says until then, Canada can't do anything!! What a cop out!! Canadian want action on this and if they have to take action ,what he will get is the Cons voted out and they can then sit on the other side and let the hot air circulate!

[ScottSA]

Let face it, voters sometime make mistakes when voting, like voting in Bush, voting Harris, and Harper could be on the list. Today, he's using getting the Big polluters signed on, and he says until then, Canada can't do anything!! What a cop out!! Canadian want action on this and if they have to take action ,what he will get is the Cons voted out and they can then sit on the other side and let the hot air circulate!

I think you might be a tad out of touch with what Canadians want.

[JerrySeinfeld]

If Canada, as a country, reduced it's "greenhouse gas emissions" NOT TO 20% BELOW 1991 LEVELS (or whatever the kyoto target happens to be arbitraily set at), but instead we reduce our "greenhouse gas emissions" to ZERO. ie. not economic activity at all. No cars, no manufacturing, no goods on the shevles, no heat, no cooking food, no electricy...

Given our 0.01% contrubution to man-made world carbon dioxide Guess how much impact that will have on the global temperature in 20-40-100 years?

If you guess zero, you'd be correct.

I think that puts the relevence of this debate nicely into perspective.

side note: water vapor is a "greenhouse gas" too - in fact the most prevelant one BY FAR by, like 98 times. should we stop breathing too?

I think Dr. Patrick Moore, founder of Greenpeace said it best:

When I left greenpeace it was in the midst of a campaign to BAN CHLORINE worldwide and I said "you guys this is on of the elements in the period table - I'm not sure if that's in our jurisdiction to be banning a whole element." The other reason environmental extremism emerged was because world communism failed, the wall came down, and alot of peaceniks and political activists came into the environmental movement BRINGING THEIR NEOMARXISM WITH THEM and learned to use GREEN LANGUAGE in a very clever way to cloak agendas that actually have more to do with anti-capitlism and anti-globalization then they do with ecology or science.

[Topaz]

If Canada, as a country, reduced it's "greenhouse gas emissions" NOT TO 20% BELOW 1991 LEVELS (or whatever the kyoto target happens to be arbitraily set at), but instead we reduce our "greenhouse gas emissions" to ZERO. ie. not economic activity at all. No cars, no manufacturing, no goods on the shevles, no heat, no cooking food, no electricy...

Given our 0.01% contrubution to man-made world carbon dioxide Guess how much impact that will have on the global temperature in 20-40-100 years?

If you guess zero, you'd be correct.

I think that puts the relevence of this debate nicely into perspective.

side note: water vapor is a "greenhouse gas" too - in fact the most prevelant one BY FAR by, like 98 times. should we stop breathing too?

I think Dr. Patrick Moore, founder of Greenpeace said it best:

So are you saying we do nothing to TRY to improve the environment we live in??

[Higgly]

If someone doesn't start it no one will follow. Whats the use in throwing your hands up in the air and saying 'oh well'?

That's why Kyoto was at least a start, and one that demanded buy-in.

Harper's unilateral precedent is bad news. Every country on earth can set its own goals as they please? Good luck.

As for Baird, this is a guy who has always made his living as a lap-dog. First Harris, now Steve. Same for Flaherty. A couple of loud chihuahas. Yap yap yap.

[capricorn]

As for Baird, this is a guy who has always made his living as a lap-dog. First Harris, now Steve. Same for Flaherty. A couple of loud chihuahas. Yap yap yap.

Baird is now known as the Conservative pitbull, especially in question period. Was this a promotion?

I would rather hear Flaherty yap yap yap than the entire opposition flap flap flap.

[bush_cheney2004]

... Canadian want action on this and if they have to take action ,what he will get is the Cons voted out and they can then sit on the other side and let the hot air circulate!

Nobody is stopping like minded Canadians from taking action right now. Go for it...reduce your own carbon footprint....go green. Yipee!

[myata]

Caught a piece of polemics on environment from today's Parliament.

(free interpretation)

Dion: "why would not Canada accept binding targets?".

Harper: "till everybody on the planet agrees to binding targets, we aren't playing in this game"

What a piece of bull! Do they themselves believe the cr.. they're trying to feed us? That Canada which enjoys one of the highest living standards in the world, won't accept binding targets until third world countries with millions of hungry to feed, will?

Once again, talk against walk issue, becoming well familiar with this crowd. Quite obviously, and unlike majority of Canadians, they plain and simple, aren't interested. Doesn't fit in their grand plan. Unlike - what? What exactly are their priorities? Real ones, I mean. Blowing crime agenda out of all proportions? Stealthy ouvertures toward death penalty? All incompassing secrecy and control which supposed to signify openness and transparency?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Once again, talk against walk issue, becoming well familiar with this crowd. Quite obviously, and unlike majority of Canadians, they plain and simple, aren't interested. Doesn't fit in their grand plan. Unlike - what? What exactly are their priorities? Real ones, I mean. Blowing crime agenda out of all proportions? Stealthy ouvertures toward death penalty? All incompassing secrecy and control which supposed to signify openness and transparency?

That's right...once again, just like the Grits who conspired execute and hide Adscam, bombed Serbia without a vote in Parliament, and did absolutely nothing about the "Kyoto file" after ratifying the treaty.

So open and transparent!

[capricorn]

So open and transparent!

You forgot credible and honest.

[myata]

That's right...once again, just like the Grits who conspired execute and hide Adscam,

Sure, it's lot easier to pass hot air, a la Harpers' bunch. For the lack of better argument, maybe?

[Wild Bill]

The point was never that India and China has to "go first", they simply can't. And considering that we, over many decades have nicely helped outselves to the oil to build our fine nations and standard of living, they won't deny themselves. They feel they have a right to do the same infrasturcture building. That just makes it all the more important for us to show leadership.

Are you kidding? Both these countries had and have the resources to build themselves nuclear bombs and have space programs far more sophisticated than that of Canada! China has put men in space!

A little bit of that money on pollution controls would have been a start. In fact, spending ANY money on pollution controls would have been more than they have done to date.

Why should they get a free ride? Because of some naive outdated impression of China and India as underdeveloped third world nations? Wake up! They fill up our Wal-Marts and they man all our call-centre help lines.

Let's be realistic here.

[trex]

If you read my two posts here you'll clearly see what I mean, that with a third world economy, with millions of crappy cars and factories blowing crap into the air, that is how they can produce the cheapest goods for us to fill our Wally-World with. No restrictions, no regs, no safeties to jack up the cost of goods. Inferior, even dangerous chemicals. They look at us and see how we have built ourselves up over the past 50 years, and they're saying, now it's OUR turn to build. Since we've already done the "dirty work" to build our technological society, what would prompt them to take the cuts and slow down? They want some too.

Probably, if you accumulated the pollution and CO2 output of our western nations since the industrial revolution, we take the cake hands down in terms of what's been done to the atmosphere. Now today the problem is, the chinese are wanting to do the same thing, on a large scale and in a short time, which has everybody worried about the environment. Sounds like hypocracy.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be required to participate, but that the WAY they participate is different than the way we could. This problem is recognized in Kyoto, it's not the way it was intended to go about. Of course, since Harper rejects Kyoto we see what we have now. Harpers insistence that they have to go first before he even makes a move is idealistic and one-sided.

Him speak with forked tongue.

[myata]

This crowd simply won't do whatever doesn't fit into their agenda, no matter if majority of Canadians want it of it's the law of the land. They'll kick and scream and use any stall tacktics or obvious BS, but they just won't do the thing. They need to be kicked out asap.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sure, it's lot easier to pass hot air, a la Harpers' bunch. For the lack of better argument, maybe?

Certainly no worse than the Liberals, but PM Harper is deserving of more vitriol? Smells like politics to me, not a longstanding concern about the environment.