nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 They work. Everyone says they hate them and pay no attention, but they do, that's been proven repeatedly in the US. If they didn't work, these spin masters wouldn't recommend spending millions on them. Really? I don't even think they work in the US, nevermind here. Slide over some of that proof and then we'll talk. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) That's as may be, but the truth is that when you phrase your questions along the lines of "Have you stopped eating your wife yet you scum?" you are unlikely to get a civil response. And when did the opposition do that? Again...all accusation, no proof. Lets see some. Edited January 21, 2011 by nicky10013 Quote
guyser Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Never heard of Andrew Coyne before. But he must be a political novice. Real novice he is. Still wet behind the ears too. But if you're premise is that they don't work. The Tories wouldn't be spending money on them. Yes, because the tories use them they work. We will take you're (sic) word on that. Quote
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 You're assuming that the people in within the CPC aren't as stupid as you. I've seen little evidence to prove that's true. Good. If they don't work, then stop complaining. Furthermore, no one that has said these ads work have proved that they do. I'd like to see some. I doubt I will but I'd like to see it. There's actually a lot of evidence that attack ads work. Just take a look at the thrasing Dion received. Compare his pre-ad favourability ratings to his post-ad ones. It's not rocket science. Quote
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Here's a story from NPR. Candidates and interest groups roll out new campaign ads daily during election seasons. Many voters say they hate negative ads, but polls show they're effective.NPR Quote
Scotty Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Ignatieff is as Canadian as you or I, and the childish attempts to define him as not by the CPC show their true colours, power at any and all costs. Come on, pick on his lack of traction, the infighting in the LPC, anything... but this slop. The ads may just backfire, and I for one hope they do if only to show the buffoons that the discourse ought to be truthful and honest. I understand your indignation, but one must remember that the Liberals used far worse ads for many years in a deliberate, and largely successful effort at demonizing the Reformers, and then the Alliance. Those efforts were neither honest nor fair. For a party in power for so many years the Liberals, rather than touting their record or advocating policy, focused each election on portraying the reform/alliance as cruel, pawns of big business (which is ironic given all the corporate money was going to the Liberals) racist and unCanadian. Who can forget when Manning pressed them over what % they would accept in a referendum to make Quebec separatism legitimate, and the Liberals furiously said they hated Canada and wanted to break Canada up. And Liberals still bring up Harper's "firewall" speech from when he was out of politics, using it to try to show he doesn't care about Canada. With all that, I find their indignation to be somewhat silly. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 And when did the opposition do that? Again...all accusation, no proof. Lets see some. All I'm saying is that the Opposition rarely seem to ask a straightforward question, preferring to precede their questions with long-winded accusations and denunciations. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
madmax Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Attack adds work. They drive down voter turnout and reduce the value of democracy to that of a partisan. People get turned off by the spin, give up that anything can be changed and become accepting of bad government, because the attack adds label the other choices as worse. This is what the Conservatives desire as they are the party in power. Remember this tactic worked for the Liberals for over a decade. They were able to get away with attack adds. It didn't work for Kim Campbell against Jean Chretian, but that is a different kettle of fish. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Attack adds work. They drive down voter turnout and reduce the value of democracy to that of a partisan. People get turned off by the spin, give up that anything can be changed and become accepting of bad government, because the attack adds label the other choices as worse. This is what the Conservatives desire as they are the party in power. Remember this tactic worked for the Liberals for over a decade. They were able to get away with attack adds. It didn't work for Kim Campbell against Jean Chretian, but that is a different kettle of fish. So where's the proof? Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 I understand your indignation, but one must remember that the Liberals used far worse ads for many years in a deliberate, and largely successful effort at demonizing the Reformers, and then the Alliance. Those efforts were neither honest nor fair. For a party in power for so many years the Liberals, rather than touting their record or advocating policy, focused each election on portraying the reform/alliance as cruel, pawns of big business (which is ironic given all the corporate money was going to the Liberals) racist and unCanadian. Who can forget when Manning pressed them over what % they would accept in a referendum to make Quebec separatism legitimate, and the Liberals furiously said they hated Canada and wanted to break Canada up. And Liberals still bring up Harper's "firewall" speech from when he was out of politics, using it to try to show he doesn't care about Canada. With all that, I find their indignation to be somewhat silly. "Well, the Liberals did it too!" Is this really an excuse? Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 There's actually a lot of evidence that attack ads work. Just take a look at the thrasing Dion received. Compare his pre-ad favourability ratings to his post-ad ones. It's not rocket science. Fine, let's see those numbers, then. Quote
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Fine, let's see those numbers, then. I already linked to a story from NPR that discusses the effectiveness of attack ads. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 I already linked to a story from NPR that discusses the effectiveness of attack ads. In Canada? Quote
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 In Canada? Is this a shell game? You don't think attack ads work in other countries too? Do you think only ads are effective in America? Even though they're used in Canada, Britain, France, Germany, and pretty much every other democracy? Do you think that political parties in those countries don't do any polling and/research? Are you for real? Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 In Canada? You really think advertising effectioveness is that much different in Canada than in the US? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 You really think advertising effectioveness is that much different in Canada than in the US? Apparently so. My guess though is that it's just as dodge. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 You really think advertising effectioveness is that much different in Canada than in the US? Politically I do. Canada's political system and the way people like to interact with our system's party's and politicians is LIGHT YEARS different here than it is in the US. Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Is this a shell game? You don't think attack ads work in other countries too? Do you think only ads are effective in America? Even though they're used in Canada, Britain, France, Germany, and pretty much every other democracy? Do you think that political parties in those countries don't do any polling and/research? Are you for real? If you're so sure why don't you get the proof? Quote
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Apparently so. My guess though is that it's just as dodge. A dodge? I'm not the one refusing to get data to prove my point, here. That would be squarely on you. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Politically I do. Canada's political system and the way people like to interact with our system's party's and politicians is LIGHT YEARS different here than it is in the US. I fail to see how politcial differences would affect how advertizing affects viewers responces. Good ads will ellicit good responses regardless whether there is a parliamentary or republican system. It isn't like we are talking about drinking habits and why french wine advertising is more effective in Quebec than in alberta.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) I fail to see how politcial differences would affect how advertizing affects viewers responces. Good ads will ellicit good responses regardless whether there is a parliamentary or republican system. It isn't like we are talking about drinking habits and why french wine advertising is more effective in Quebec than in alberta.... You'd think so, but it isn't necessarily about ads as our political system. Politics in the US is a year round cycle. There are major elections ever 2 years and municipal elections in a lot of municipalities inside those times. There are fewer people who vote in the US than in Canada but those people tend to be far more mobilized because they view their political system as a legacy of their founding national myths. Voting is American. We have to stay involved and have our say because that's the American thing to do. It's your national duty to vote. In Canada it's the exact opposite. People want to live their daily lives without the rhetoric and bombast of political parties and politicians. Canadians general see politics as a chore - something they have to do every 4 years and as we saw when Ignatieff said he was going to defeat the government, they get angry by the fact that they have to pay attention. Ironically, they forget about it and do it anyway with no problems to the party that calls them but that's another story. These ads don't work, not because they're well produced or have a good narrative or fits with the current media agenda. They don't work because until a writ people will simply change the channel and choose not pay attention. Edited January 21, 2011 by nicky10013 Quote
Shakeyhands Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 but one must remember that the Liberals used far worse ads for many years in a deliberate, and largely successful effort at demonizing the Reformers, and then the Alliance. Those efforts were neither honest nor fair. For a party in power for so many years the Liberals, rather than touting their record or advocating policy, focused each election on portraying the reform/alliance as cruel, pawns of big business (which is ironic given all the corporate money was going to the Liberals) racist and unCanadian. Who can forget when Manning pressed them over what % they would accept in a referendum to make Quebec separatism legitimate, and the Liberals furiously said they hated Canada and wanted to break Canada up. And Liberals still bring up Harper's "firewall" speech from when he was out of politics, using it to try to show he doesn't care about Canada. Can you point out a few examples of Liberal attack ads? I, for the life of me, can't recall any. Thanks appreciate it, I may be seeing this issue in a onesided manner. Quote "They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche
M.Dancer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 You'd think so, but it isn't necessarily about ads as our political system. Politics in the US is a year round cycle. There are major elections ever 2 years and municipal elections in a lot of municipalities inside those times. There are fewer people who vote in the US than in Canada but those people tend to be far more mobilized because they view their political system as a legacy of their founding national myths. Voting is American. We have to stay involved and have our say because that's the American thing to do. It's your national duty to vote. No, don't buy it. We vote as often or more (certainly more) than the US. Frequency of elections is not relevant. There are major elections ever 2 years and municipal elections in a lot of municipalities inside those times. There are fewer people who vote in the US than in Canada The turn out in the 2008 election was 56%+ The turn out in the 2004 election was 53%+ In Canada however....the 2008 election was 58+% and the 2006 was 64%+ Not so much of a difference that it would have any bearing on the effectiveness of political advertizing. Elizabeth May knows they work...so well in fact should would pass a low to curb the freedom of expression and ban them. http://www.elizabethmay.ca/in-the-news/island-tides/a-prescription-for-a-healthier-democracy-ban-political-tv-advertising-2/ Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shady Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 These ads don't work Prove it. Nobody is saying that Canadian political attack ads are the same as American political attack ads. But these particular ads are pretty tame. As were the ones targeting Dion. And advertising works. People pay attention to ads. Even political ones. That's why all political parties have done polling and the necessary research before spending millions of dollars in advertising. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Can you point out a few examples of Liberal attack ads? I, for the life of me, can't recall any. Thanks appreciate it, I may be seeing this issue in a onesided manner. According to the globe....they are running now. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/liberals-strike-back-with-ads-on-fighter-jets-corporate-tax-cuts/article1878341/ Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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