Russia to the West... is it a Threat or Hope?

[myata]

If the West wants to acquire new partners and potentially, allies in countries like Russia, India, Middle East, it has to be prepared for a real dialogue, in which it would listen and accommodate its partners. So far, it's been pretty much a one way road. Not to apologize the regime in Russia, the country had a number of reasons to be upset with the way it's been treated by the West. Sure, a better established democracy could have found more diplomatic ways to react to what appeared like attempts to subjugate Russia's independecy to the Western influence. In the unstable country as it was after the fall of the Soviet Union and the chaos of the first years, these ostensibly unfriendly actions (like extending NATO to its borders) may have just been another factor (along with long time history of autocratic and often despotic rule) that tipped the balance toward the new autocracy and nationalizm.

[mzaseka]

Well, we still have to find out just how healthy they are...

That wouldn’t do any harm. But the main thing now is to take a decision in principle. And then, to be frank, it’s not that easy. Just to know that these forces exist is not enough. We still have to contact them, and it won’t be an easy matter to win their trust

[mzaseka]

If the West wants to acquire new partners and potentially, allies in countries like Russia, India, Middle East, it has to be prepared for a real dialogue, in which it would listen and accommodate its partners. So far, it's been pretty much a one way road. Not to apologize the regime in Russia, the country had a number of reasons to be upset with the way it's been treated by the West. Sure, a better established democracy could have found more diplomatic ways to react to what appeared like attempts to subjugate Russia's independecy to the Western influence. In the unstable country as it was after the fall of the Soviet Union and the chaos of the first years, these ostensibly unfriendly actions (like extending NATO to its borders) may have just been another factor (along with long time history of autocratic and often despotic rule) that tipped the balance toward the new autocracy and nationalizm.

The West is treating Russia pretty well actually. They are acting accordingly now. West does not touch Putin's regime. Putin invests all surplus from oil sales in the West. That's what the article is about. But! The oil and natural gas will finish very soon. And what the West is goimg to do with dissiparing Russia and with it's nukes then? That is the question. All those nukes will go to Iran and other countries. So West must not come down. But take a look to NRN - New Russian Nationalists http://mzaseka.newsvine.com/_news/2007/10/...an-nationalists

[MMT]

That wouldn’t do any harm. But the main thing now is to take a decision in principle. And then, to be frank, it’s not that easy. Just to know that these forces exist is not enough. We still have to contact them, and it won’t be an easy matter to win their trust

Yes, and that's the main thing. I'd love to believe your assessments. But you must agree that it's all very vague. Your judgement is based on the article(s) you've read. You say these forces exist. But although you have identified them (NRN???), you didn't make contact with them. Is't that true? So maybe they're not there at all, and you're simply mistaken?

Edited November 16, 2007 by MMT

[Jerry Galinda]

Well, we still have to find out just how healthy they are...

Who is healthy ?

What is healthy ?

West is healthy ???

When West was healthy ?

What does it mean - to be "healthy" ???

[mzaseka]

Who is healthy ?

What is healthy ?

West is healthy ???

When West was healthy ?

What does it mean - to be "healthy" ???

We were talking about Russians!

[mzaseka]

You are naive !

Russia disdain small nations and countries !

From ages - EMPIRE is more important for Russians than their life.

"Cannons instead of butter "- IT'S OBVIOUS FOR HIM !!!

They afraid only USA - in the future - China.

I am not naive! Today Russians start realizing the evil that Empire brought them. Only in 20th century 100 million Russians were sacrificed for the Holy Fire of Empire. And this article written by NRN is a proof of my words.

[Jerry Galinda]

We were talking about Russians!

Is that so ?

It means that Russians are "healthy' ?

LOL

[Jerry Galinda]

I am not naive! Today Russians start realizing the evil that Empire brought them. Only in 20th century 100 million Russians were sacrificed for the Holy Fire of Empire. And this article written by NRN is a proof of my words.

Your response - cofirm that You are Naive !!

After First World War - people believe that it was tha last war in Europe !!!!!!!

Russians have conscience of being Empire.

It cause that they support war in Chechnya and BIG ARMAMENTS !!!!!!!

[mzaseka]

Is that so ?

It means that Russians are "healthy' ?

LOL

Did you read the conversation? I have to cite it one more time.

"I repeat, there are various forces which might bring about the revival. And in many scenarios, we could well end up with a zombie. But if we help those who feel the same way we do, there won’t be any zombies, because they are really healthy forces, healthy themselves and able to help the world back to health!"

I guess you do not think that all Russians are 100% crazy and sick.

[mzaseka]

Your response - cofirm that You are Naive !!

After First World War - people believe that it was tha last war in Europe !!!!!!!

Russians have conscience of being Empire.

It cause that they support war in Chechnya and BIG ARMAMENTS !!!!!!!

If you read the article you would not say that. NRN want to separate Caucus once and forever. They hate neo-KGB Putin and want Russian Federation to die as soon as possible. They need just their national democratic Respublic. Here is another article for you http://www.vdesyatku.com/NewRusianNationalists.html

And also take a look here http://www.vdesyatku.com/EnglishPage.html

[Jerry Galinda]

If you read the article you would not say that. NRN want to separate Caucus once and forever. They hate neo-KGB Putin and want Russian Federation to die as soon as possible. They need just their national democratic Respublic. Here is another article for you http://www.vdesyatku.com/NewRusianNationalists.html

And also take a look here http://www.vdesyatku.com/EnglishPage.html

"NRN want to"' - LOL

I would like to be young, rich and handsome.

How many Russians support "NRN" ??

What is it - "New Rusian Nationalist ???????

Nationalists ??? No - Danke - as to say Germans.

You are naive as a child.

They say what to want - what is convenient ...........

[mzaseka]

"NRN want to"' - LOL

I would like to be young, rich and handsome.

How many Russians support "NRN" ??

What is it - "New Rusian Nationalist ???????

Nationalists ??? No - Danke - as to say Germans.

You are naive as a child.

They say what to want - what is convenient ...........

What's wrong with Nationalism? Aren't the most of Democratic countries - national countries? For example, Baltic states, Scandinavians.

[Jerry Galinda]

What's wrong with Nationalism? Aren't the most of Democratic countries - national countries? For example, Baltic states, Scandinavians.

So many My questions - and only one response - one question !!!!!

Don't You know what is it NATIONALISM ??

Don't You know the difference between NATIONAL - country and NATONALISM ??

First of all - Baltic countries are national countries ?? What a false !!

From which country are you from?

Do you know the history of Baltic countries ?

I have doubts !!

[Oleg Bach]

So many My questions - and only one response - one question !!!!!

Don't You know what is it NATIONALISM ??

Don't You know the difference between NATIONAL - country and NATONALISM ??

First of all - Baltic countries are national countries ?? What a false !!

From which country are you from?

Do you know the history of Baltic countries ?

I have doubts !!

Nationalism means extend family or tribe - country means territory, actual realestate..To ask what is wrong with NATIONALISM ..Is to ask what is wrong with family? I say family is fine. It was funny when they declared that Quebec was a "nation with in a nation" in other words a family within a family..They stopped short of saying a country within a country..that would have been granting real power and real estate...funny - some lawyer sat up all night finding the right wording.. So what they said to the dumbo French is that you are a nation within a nation - you are tenants..and the goofs went for it - someone should send them a dictionary...better yet don't..Bit off topic but bare with me as I amuse my self - being a nationalist...if I could only find my extended family..it's hard being a nation all to yourself.

[Oleg Bach]

Nationalism means extend family or tribe - country means territory, actual realestate..To ask what is wrong with NATIONALISM ..Is to ask what is wrong with family? I say family is fine. It was funny when they declared that Quebec was a "nation with in a nation" in other words a family within a family..They stopped short of saying a country within a country..that would have been granting real power and real estate...funny - some lawyer sat up all night finding the right wording.. So what they said to the dumbo French is that you are a nation within a nation - you are tenants..and the goofs went for it - someone should send them a dictionary...better yet don't..Bit off topic but bare with me as I amuse my self - being a nationalist...if I could only find my extended family..it's hard being a nation all to yourself.

Oh yah Russia - is it a threat to the west? I would say know as long as both govnerments stay the same..if the corrupt western government reforms - that is a problem - and if the corrupt Russian government reforms - that is a problem - as long as they stay corrupt together - I see no problem.

[Jerry Galinda]

Nationalism means extend family or tribe - country means territory, actual realestate..To ask what is wrong with NATIONALISM ..Is to ask what is wrong with family? I say family is fine. It was funny when they declared that Quebec was a "nation with in a nation" in other words a family within a family..They stopped short of saying a country within a country..that would have been granting real power and real estate...funny - some lawyer sat up all night finding the right wording.. So what they said to the dumbo French is that you are a nation within a nation - you are tenants..and the goofs went for it - someone should send them a dictionary...better yet don't..Bit off topic but bare with me as I amuse my self - being a nationalist...if I could only find my extended family..it's hard being a nation all to yourself.

“Nationalism means extend family or tribe - country means territory, actual realestate..” - extend - it cause a fight - wars - conflicts - aggression.

‘Nationalism means extend FAMILY “ - a joke ? What a “wise” definition !! LOL

‘Nationalism means extend ……….. tribe “ - what a modern attitude - tribe - tribe thinking - almost -like a FASCISTS.

“Is to ask what is wrong with family?’ - what a poetical comparison !!! LOL

Argumentum ad absurdum

Frankly speaking - false comparison - false argument.

Or rather “argument”.

[leo]

“Nationalism means extend family or tribe - country means territory, actual realestate..” - extend - it cause a fight - wars - conflicts - aggression.

‘Nationalism means extend FAMILY “ - a joke ? What a “wise” definition !! LOL

‘Nationalism means extend ……….. tribe “ - what a modern attitude - tribe - tribe thinking - almost -like a FASCISTS.

“Is to ask what is wrong with family?’ - what a poetical comparison !!! LOL

Argumentum ad absurdum

Frankly speaking - false comparison - false argument.

Or rather “argument”.

I can see how easy it is to fall into a terminological dispute again. Let me quote (without LOL) Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/

"The term “nationalism” is generally used to describe two phenomena: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination. "

Basically, if you accept this definition, then previously posted question "What's wrong with Nationalism?" wouldn't cause your "LOL". If you do not except this definition, you might define your own and explain it to your opponents, if you want to talk the same language. If you don't want your opponents to understand you, then sure - keep laughing.

I think in your mind you mix Nationalism with vulgar German National-Socialism. I might be wrong, but I got this impression out of your previous posts. Please excuse me if I was mistaken.

[Jerry Galinda]

I can see how easy it is to fall into a terminological dispute again. Let me quote (without LOL) Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/

"The term “nationalism” is generally used to describe two phenomena: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination. "

Basically, if you accept this definition, then previously posted question "What's wrong with Nationalism?" wouldn't cause your "LOL". If you do not except this definition, you might define your own and explain it to your opponents, if you want to talk the same language. If you don't want your opponents to understand you, then sure - keep laughing.

I think in your mind you mix Nationalism with vulgar German National-Socialism. I might be wrong, but I got this impression out of your previous posts. Please excuse me if I was mistaken.

„What's wrong with Nationalism?" wouldn't cause your "LOL".” - argumentum ad absurdum !!!!!!!!!!

Where do You found such - My statement !!!!

Nationalism - is responsible for - majority of wars in Europe and Asia in the XX century !!!!!!!!

Nationalism is responsible for - ethnic cleansing in the XX century!!!!!!!!

That’s all !!!!!!!

I think that - ENOUGH !!

As I said before - “it cause a fight - wars - conflicts - aggression.”

“I think in your mind you mix Nationalism with vulgar German National-Socialism.” ?????????

Are you sure that for ethnic cleansing on the Balkans lately - is responsible - “vulgar German National-Socialism.” ?????????

Are you sure that for war and war crimes in China - during Japan - China war is responsible - “vulgar German National-Socialism.” ?????????

And so on , so on , so on

[leo]

Nationalism - is responsible for - majority of wars in Europe and Asia in the XX century !!!!!!!!

Nationalism is responsible for - ethnic cleansing in the XX century!!!!!!!!

You are making big mistake. It's not Nationalism, but Imperialism in charge for all the wars! An imperial model of state is the evil.

[Jerry Galinda]

You are making big mistake. It's not Nationalism, but Imperialism in charge for all the wars! An imperial model of state is the evil.

1.First and foremost - imperialism don’t exist without NATIONALISM - especially in the XX century !

2.Next - Nationalism is responsible for - ethnic cleansing in the XX century!!!!!!!!

3.NEXT - imperialism - it’s a kind of useful political calque - or rather political tool which is used by leftists in order to explain the character of wars.

4.Naïve theory - naïve political calque.

Why naïve - because - according to this theory - all evil - it’s imperialism and capitalism as a “part” of imperialism.

5.Next - Nationalism cause e.g. that ethnic minorities are persecuted

by the nationalists and so , so on.

Majority of domestic wars (e.g. Yugoslavia, the Third World - tribe thinking) - is connected with nationalism

6.Do you believe that without national egoism , nationalism, “tribe” thinking - the wars were possible in the XX century ??

7.„An imperial model of state is the evil.” ???????

What is it “imperial model” ???

What a bubbling !!

Naïve belief - that any “imperial model” of state is responsible for wars or conflicts.

Btw. As usual - many my questions ,responses and concrete doubts - and - only selective response.

[leo]

Btw. As usual - many my questions ,responses and concrete doubts - and - only selective response.

Define nationalism first. Answering all of your questions is irrelevant until you could define the term. As I mentioned earlier, it's useless terminological debate, if you cannot offer to your opponents a definition of the subject. I offered you one definition, but you ignored it and keep battling.

Define nationalism.

[Oleg Bach]

Define nationalism first. Answering all of your questions is irrelevant until you could define the term. As I mentioned earlier, it's useless terminological debate, if you cannot offer to your opponents a definition of the subject. I offered you one definition, but you ignored it and keep battling.

Define nationalism.

"A Nation within a Nation" - or a family within a family. Get a dictionary and you will see that a COUNTRY defines territory - real estate. NATION OR NATIONALISM..defines a tribe or family. In order to have nationalizm..you must have a group that spring forth from the same genetic heritage of original family. There was a time when anglo - saxon heritage proviced great nationalism..now with multi-culturalism...we have ghettos - and tiny nations within tiny nations...I still find it facinating that they defined Quebec as a "Nation within a Nation" and avoided calling them a country...what we have in Canada is not multi-culturalism - but MULTI-NATIONALISM...and maybe a house devided does not fall....but I doubt it..I as a slave born in England - liked the anglo nationalism of the past..it was comforting because the anglos are for the most part ancient Germanics as are some of the old Slavic tribes. And we looked similar and were relatives..now..well - welcome to the ghetto. There is nationalism in Markham - and at Jane and Finch - and in Rosedale and in Forest Hill - not to mention in my house and in my family or mini-nation.

[mzaseka]

"A Nation within a Nation" - or a family within a family. Get a dictionary and you will see that a COUNTRY defines territory - real estate. NATION OR NATIONALISM..defines a tribe or family. In order to have nationalizm..you must have a group that spring forth from the same genetic heritage of original family. There was a time when anglo - saxon heritage proviced great nationalism..now with multi-culturalism...we have ghettos - and tiny nations within tiny nations...I still find it facinating that they defined Quebec as a "Nation within a Nation" and avoided calling them a country...what we have in Canada is not multi-culturalism - but MULTI-NATIONALISM...and maybe a house devided does not fall....but I doubt it..I as a slave born in England - liked the anglo nationalism of the past..it was comforting because the anglos are for the most part ancient Germanics as are some of the old Slavic tribes. And we looked similar and were relatives..now..well - welcome to the ghetto. There is nationalism in Markham - and at Jane and Finch - and in Rosedale and in Forest Hill - not to mention in my house and in my family or mini-nation.

Oleg! Do not even try to explain obvious things to Jerry. He does not understand simple things and has a mess in his head. He is trying deliberately to deviate the subject to the Nazi theme. He is just playing a fool. Never mind his bla-bla bla BS. We are talking here about Democratic National Russia, not about Reich and Nazis. Jerry has mixed smth.

[Maxim]

"The term “nationalism” is generally used to describe two phenomena: (1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity and (2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination. "

Agreed.

First of all - Baltic countries are national countries ?? What a false !!

Do you know the history of Baltic countries ?

Baltic states are doing exactly what is described by definition of the term nationalism above. At the moment they are exactly national countries, defending their national self-determination. Sometimes it turns ugly, but that's how they want to protect their national identity, after many years of different kind of occupation.

1.First and foremost - imperialism don’t exist without NATIONALISM - especially in the XX century !

This statement is false, at least if you apply it to Russians. I am a ethnic Russian myself (Russian Canadian), and may I say, I Know the Russian history.

All the time in Russian history the Empire (under different names) fought against the Russian nationalism.

Unfortunately to Russians, most of the times in the last five centuries, the empire prevailed.

The most severe defeat was when Moscow Czar completely destroyed democratic Novgorod republic of Russians.

Russian nationalists fought against Russia's empire in many people wars led by cossaks Razin, Pugachev, Bolotnikov; they fought together with Polish insurgents ("For your and our freedom"), they fought against Jewish internacionale in Antonov's peasants army in Tambov region...

The empire supported xebophoby and always skillfully controlled international tensions ("Divide & Rule" approach).

But it always were afraid of idea of letting Russians to build their true national state.

People of Ukraine should be happy now after they separated themselves from the power of Moscow. Ukraine promotes nationalism - is Ukraine an empire? No!

Federation of Russia promotes multi-culturalism and fights the Russian nationalism. Is it empire? Yes!

Majority of domestic wars (e.g. Yugoslavia, the Third World - tribe thinking) - is connected with nationalism

I disagree. Wars in former Yugoslavia were developed on a base of different religious beliefs. Serbs, Croats and Bosnians are all Slavs speaking the same common language. But they are divided as being Orthodox, Catholics and Muslims.

Wars between India & Pakistan were driven mostly because of religion differences.

And many religions (you like it or not) served nicely many empires in this world...

I still find it facinating that they defined Quebec as a "Nation within a Nation" and avoided calling them a country...what we have in Canada is not multi-culturalism - but MULTI-NATIONALISM...and maybe a house devided does not fall....but I doubt it..

I doubt it too. If you have said A, you must also say B. Proclaiming Québécois as nation, we'rev provoking next question - why Nation without a state? And so on and so far.

Now, please pay attention that ethnic Russians, who are about 80% of Russia's population, are not even mentioned in Russia's constitution as Russian people!

They do not have their national state (even inside Russia, as Tatars, Bashkirs, Yakuts, Chechens, Jews have).

How do you like Putin's remarks like "Pure Russians do not exist" or "Whoever thinks about Russian national state is either an idiot or provocateur"?

Russian nationalism is the only way to build new democratic Russian state! Back to the Great Novgorod? Yes, but with promoting the XXI century progress!

Edited November 25, 2007 by Maxim