Toronto School Board eyes "Afro-centric" school

[Michael Hardner]

MLK fought to end segregation, now some people want it back.

I guess you're right. 'Segregation' literally means separation.

In MLK's day, the term referred to people being forcibly denied equality. This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most. I guess we could, as an alternative, provide assistance to all groups but it seems like a waste of resources.

[M.Dancer]

If they really want an "african-centric" school they should simply open up a private school.

while they can't disallow non blacks from attending, the curriculum could do that for them, especially if it was heavy on black themes....black history, ebonics......

I wonder if there are any who would pay to send their kids to a black themed school, or do they only want it if it was tax payer supported?

[jefferiah]

This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most.

Why do blacks have to be educated differently? Would you support a Caucasian Centric School?

[Smallc]

I guess you're right. 'Segregation' literally means separation.

In MLK's day, the term referred to people being forcibly denied equality. This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most. I guess we could, as an alternative, provide assistance to all groups but it seems like a waste of resources.

In the 50s in the US, they had separate but equal schools. We all know how good that turned out.

[Smallc]

Why do blacks have to be educated differently? Would you support a Caucasian Centric School?

Thats what I wonder too. If you are in Ontario, you should be taught under the same system as all others in Ontario. If this was a white issue rather than a black one, the racism card would have been played very heavily already.

[g_bambino]

In MLK's day, the term referred to people being forcibly denied equality. This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most.

No, actually it doesn't; it targets nothing. "Black-focused" and "Afro-centric" are lovely hyphenated terms that are bandied about; but, what do they mean? Does a "black-focused" school only offer assistance to those of a certain skin tone, regardless of the financial or emotional state of the individual? Does an "Afro-centric" school only offer assistance to those with African roots, regardless of skin colour or ethnicity? So, who defines the group that needs the assistance, and by what criteria do they define it?

Edited November 12, 2007 by g_bambino

[maxsyno]

IF it just so happens that ALL black kids are behind in their grades, there are other possible remedies to outright seperation.

Perhaps they could complete a kind of 'bridging school term' in the summer break to bring them up to speed. Once up to speed they could be dispersed within mixed schools.

Seperation is absolutely horrifying. Children naturally adapt to each others cultures. Low income areas are the problem. Black people are not employed because of racist views for example foreign = terrorist (if coffee colured skin), Blacks as gangsters, or even complications with bureacracy for the employer with newbies. But whatever it is, immigrants are being put into low income areas together.

Anyway, we need to break that kind of steretyping/catagorisationa. Kids are lumped into schools depending on location and income. THese schools need to be upgraded. THey should not be used as a means to 'guarantee' a shoddy education for minorities, hiding behind excuses of cultural differences. Or hiding the fact that such differences can be worked into the system.

The school does not have to rid 'culture' or lump it together as black. The kids can still have there own home understanding and learn from the Canadian system also. Studies of kids undergoing this has shown that kids adapt both ways with much ease. (sorry, forgotten my source but its to do with the quality of rational language structures and communication).

Seperation is a guarantee that minorities will NOT enter the workforce. They will not integrate and there education will be shoddy. They will never escape poverty and you will have to pay for such errors of the system. That is, if everybody really does want these kids to have equal access to university, professional jobs, trades etc then integration is vital right? I assume everybody does since there is a lot of moaning about those on welfare. So surely a bridging system could work out for differing levels before entrance into standard Canadian schools? Even if it cost the state/tax payers it would be an investment because future 'black' welfare collecters et al would be avoided. Lets try and keep the innocence of the kids alive by integration so racism stands a possible chance of being beaten.

[jbg]

I guess you're right. 'Segregation' literally means separation.

In MLK's day, the term referred to people being forcibly denied equality. This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most. I guess we could, as an alternative, provide assistance to all groups but it seems like a waste of resources.

No, an Afro-Centric school does not mean targeted assistance. It means a hate academy or at best one where students learn Ebonics rather than English or French.

[jbg]

Does a "black-focused" school only offer assistance to those of a certain skin tone, regardless of the financial or emotional state of the individual? Does an "Afro-centric" school only offer assistance to those with African roots, regardless of skin colour or ethnicity?

These schools offer assistance not to their students, but to would-be political leaders who need to have a small pond to be a big fish in.

However, education is not a fable or a fairy tail, and the price of creating self-important, bigoted leaders who preach nothing but hate and sloth is a high and often tragic one. That is why every well-connected Arab or African thug needs a country of their own to "self-determine". Black-centric school districts help the rabble rousers, and irreparably deprive the children of their rights as a Canadian; an education.

[scribblet]

A totally bad idea; by segregating students of "colour" it just perpetuates the myth that they cannot compete, that they are not up to the standards of other people. It is time to concentrate on individual responsibility, to tell these students that they have settle down, study and learn like everyone instead of making excuses. We cannot support race based schools !!!

[mikedavid00]

Really priceless, the kind of entertainment you can only find in a Toronto pub,....

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that sort of very conversation I would be rich.

[mikedavid00]

Bravo and well stated, it seems the black community has become dependant on the government to solve their problems. They need to become a community again, as you stated, their roots and culture should be tought at home not in the classroom.

P.S. What exactly is "Black Culture"? Anyone?

I disagree with:

"3) Ensure that it is the responsibility of the parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, close family friends, elders, what have you, to teach ethnic and cultural roots, not the school system."

What they learn at home is not my business (unless it threatens harm on us or infringens on my rights).

Culture is shallow. It's fun and games. It's not real in this country. It's not the purpose of living.

The Blacks IN CANADA (not the US) are just another racially segregated immigrant group in Canada with 'leaders' trying to establish a powr base in or system. That's all they are. Nothing less, nothing more. No different then Muslims, Asians, South Asians, yadda yadda yadda.

Just like how most people on the forum were NIAVE to Musharraf's actions because they didn't 'understand' the 'other side', Canada is also NIAVE to what these people are doing because they don't 'understand' the 'other side' and how you gain power.

These people sit in school, volunteer in every commitee, get politically involved, use their race and groups as number backing of people, and then try to get in our system. The CBC gives them air time, they hit the midia, and bam, they are a name in the 'community'. This is how it's done in Africa, Pakistan, and every other hole of a country.

One thing these people have in common is they have NEVER paid taxes or worked a day in their lives.

They want to get their hands on the public purse where the big money and power is. It's a life goal, but that's how you get there.

This is how Ruby Dahla got into power, this is how these 'ethnic leaders' get into their positions.

Ok look..

I know a girl in Montreal who is south Asian. She graduated from Media/Law or something along those lines last year. She's a Liberal and pics on her Facebook with Jean Cherest. She attends all the functions.

She now has a website. And what is she doing to get her hands on the public purse?

She's actually interviewing IMMIGRANT WOMEN accross Canada in an attempt to establish a power base and start a support organization.

She's after the public purse. Nothing less, nothing more. She can sugar coat her motives in her mind all she wants.

And no, she's never worked a day in her life. She feels a 'greater duty' to Canada and her community and we have to pay for it.

This is what's wrong with Canada. You give into this, and over time, we'll be the ones declaring marshall law and firing our judges.

[mikedavid00]

It is a wrong message to separate the diversity. The blacks fought hard for so much, only to return to segregation?

Lord..

It's NOT about that. They are not promoting the school for those reasons. They are not US blacks.

They are recent immigrant groups like everyone else trying to establish a power base in our public system.

The kids aren't asking for this, the parent's aren't asking for this, WE Canadians shurely as hell aren't asking for this.

What is happening here is no different then what's going on in Pakistan - a political faction trying to overtake our democracy.

NO DIFFERENT.

[Michael Hardner]

QUOTE(Michael Hardner @ Nov 12 2007, 03:06 PM) *

This type of separation means targeting assistance to those who need it most.

Why do blacks have to be educated differently? Would you support a Caucasian Centric School?

Jeff - I would support such a school if there were signs that Caucasians were doing exceptionally worse.

For example, I don't support separate programs to promote girls going to university as that is just not a problem any more.

jbg - Correct me if I'm wrong but 'hate academy' is probably a biased term.

It was also a bad movie with Steve Guttenberg in the 1980s.`

[scribblet]

Are they recent immigrant groups - and if so if the what they want is African-centred school, why come here?

When my son was in a Scarborough high school, he was the only white kid in his class one year, and I'll bet, there aren't too many schools in Toronto that have a majority white classroom.

They might have a case though considering that there are schools for natives only and a gay and lesbian focused school, and a separate school for Catholics. Heck, the board allready runs Africentric summer camp near Jane and Finch.

Asian immigrant children seem to do okay, in fact, very well, so maybe it's about the students and their parents taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes towards learning.

[RB]

Lord..

It's NOT about that. They are not promoting the school for those reasons. They are not US blacks.

They are recent immigrant groups like everyone else trying to establish a power base in our public system.

The kids aren't asking for this, the parent's aren't asking for this, WE Canadians shurely as hell aren't asking for this.

What is happening here is no different then what's going on in Pakistan - a political faction trying to overtake our democracy.

NO DIFFERENT.

There was insinuation of recent immigration in the post invitation to revisit the post >> click for link. There is black history in Canada. The absence of black history in Canadian schools has led to misconceptions of blacks struggles in Canada. For this reason the US blacks history always seem to be used as a point of reference.

"edited"

Edited November 13, 2007 by RB

[g_bambino]

They might have a case though considering that there are schools for natives only and a gay and lesbian focused school, and a separate school for Catholics. Heck, the board allready runs Africentric summer camp near Jane and Finch.

Don't get me started on institutions that cater specifically to gays and lesbians. How do we single out a "gay" and a "lesbian"? Will we pin stars on them? Oh, wait, we already have rainbow triangles...

Asian immigrant children seem to do okay, in fact, very well, so maybe it's about the students and their parents taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes towards learning.

Indeed.

[Moxie]

MikeDavid wrote: The Blacks IN CANADA (not the US) are just another racially segregated immigrant group in Canada with 'leaders' trying to establish a powr base in or system. That's all they are. Nothing less, nothing more. No different then Muslims, Asians, South Asians, yadda yadda yadda.

In Nova Scotia we have the largest African Community in Canada. They came here as part of the Underground Railroad, slaves that were smuggled to saftey and freedom. They settled in Africaville and are as much a part of Nova Scotia history and culture as the Natives and Immigrants. We teach "Black History" for a month every year in this province, the Blacks are a vital part of my provice. If they are segregated it's because they are poor and can't afford to leave their communities, they currently have strong communitys in nine different areas of N.S. They have a proud history in our Military, it was called the Black Watch.

Secondly, Asians aren't part of Canadian Culture? Who do you think laid the railway in the Country? Asians, they died expanding and joining Canada as a Country. The oldest China Town is in Victoria. Ding they are Part of Canadian Culture.

I do agree with your assertion that they are using this issue to further their Agenda, and yes it's about power. I have no tolerance with government at any level pandering to a minority group, if they want to have "Special" status form a lobby group like other special interest groups.

Scriblet wrote: Asian immigrant children seem to do okay, in fact, very well, so maybe it's about the students and their parents taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes towards learning.

I concur, this seems to be small group wanting "Special Status" while blaming the system for their failure as responsible parents.

This issue makes me angry. So what defines a Black Person? How can it be Africian issue if they are from the Caribian, last time I looked Jamacia isn't in Africa. Will there then be spin off school one for black Africians and another for Black Jamacians? Under the Charter it's illegal to discriminate against a person for their skin color, will we need new legislation (special clause allowing discrimination against all non-blacks) to deal with the non-blacks wanting to attend this school? Is this an attempt by the school board to muddy the waters and stack the statistics? At a all black school the students' scores would rise because they will be competing with the weakest link in the food chain. Not much competing for marks if they are a school full of weak students.

I honestly don't know how this can be done legally, anyone got any ideas?

I wonder if this issue is a red herring, faith based Schools were not what the public wanted. Is this a way to slide around the "Faith Based Schools" issue and make it about Race? Will the Arabs want Arab only schools next? Indian Schools only? This is a very slippery slope.

[g_bambino]

There is black history in Canada. The absence of black history in Canadian schools has led to misconceptions of blacks struggles in Canada. For this reason the US blacks history always seem to be used as a point of reference.

That is true, though the extent of Canada's history that relates to those of African descent is limited in comparison to that which relates to those of a European extraction. I agree that, at least from my experience, that component of Canada's history which pertains to Afro-North Americans is not covered enough in current curricula, even as small as it is. However, that does not mean this part of history deserves a disproportionate amount of attention; Canada's history is dominated by Europeans and First Nations; dems da breaks. We can't allow the false portrayal of history for the sake of political correctness, as some might have us do.

If a kid wants to enrol in an Afro-centric course later in high school or in university, then so be it; I don't see what's wrong with that. But, prior to that level, there's no need for such a thing, not in this country; there should be one history taught predominantly in our public schools, and that's the history of Canada. If a kid feels detatched in school because the teachers teaching him aren't the same colour as he is, or because his family's particular culture isn't the focus of studies, then what can we assume but that the kid's parents are raising him as a bigot?

[guyser]

In Nova Scotia we have the largest African Community in Canada.

Was it not your province that went down this road only to reject it? I know it was yours or NB.

It wont go anywhere here either.

[AngusThermopyle]

They have a proud history in our Military, it was called the Black Watch.

Well you got that one about as wrong as you possibly could. The Black Watch was formed and manned by Scots, not Nova Scotian blacks. I know you wont believe me so heres a link.

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/en/index.htm

[M.Dancer]

Well you got that one about as wrong as you possibly could. The Black Watch was formed and manned by Scots, not Nova Scotian blacks. I know you wont believe me so heres a link.

http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/en/index.htm

I was a Black Watch reservist and I can say with 100% certainty that while I was there, there were 2 black guys, a vietnamese, a chilean, two jews, a german, a couple of eastern europeans and several herds of scots....

[RB]

We can't allow the false portrayal of history for the sake of political correctness, as some might have us do....

If a kid wants to enrol in an Afro-centric course later in high school or in university, then so be it; I don't see what's wrong with that...

I got my bits of black education from my University general ed.

I think that the black community has simply come to equate blackness with some identity alienation, separation and indifference hence the call for "Afro" schools to promote or reject values of achievement but on their own black terms, and alienate themselves further.

What I meant is that even though blacks are not able to be fully lucid and articulate what it means to be "black" they sure have some rules they don't wish to follow, like don’t follow a particular culture or education system obviously. I mean it seems that the black folks are more fully attuned to what they don't wish to be. Look, if we are not open to a common system, and insist, lobby on pressuring and instill a successful education to start, how are we going to “pass” on the value of education which carries a burden of much lower expectation, values and troubling attitudes.

I mean there was a time when blacks would "die" literally trying to read, so how ironic that this rise of anti-achievement is ever so challenging. To me it seems like the blacks are simply sabotaging themselves in a circle of self-destruction.

Why can’t the folks come up fresh ideas such as incorporating “cool” attitudes towards education in their rap music? At least they will have something good to sing about.

[jbg]

I am responding to and agreeing with the last post rather than quoting it in full. Limiting the cradle to grave welfare state would concentrate the mind wonderfully, both of the students and their parents.

[fellowtraveller]

The Edmonton Public School Board has many 'centric' schools, all fully funded and fully within the public umbrella. They don't have a 'black' school, likely because the community is too small. But.. if there was sufficient interest, they'd do it.

There are several First Nations schools, girls only schools, schools for smart kids, religious based schools, sports schools, ballet schools,a military academy, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish,Ukranian and Arabic immersion, huge arts school and so on. All in the public system.

And , of course, the availability of choice has limited private and charter schools to a very few. Choice also has another less obvious benefit - more parents are more involved in the schools. Parents can send there kid to any school anywhere in Alberta, provided there is space. All schools must teach the Alberta curriculum, no exceptions, to receive public funding. After that, they can more or less do what the parents and adminstration choose.

And that has led to the point of it all: achievement. Alberta consistently ranks tops in scholastic achievement in core subjects in Canada, and ranks well worldwide in some. The results speak for themselves.