why Alberta hasn't seperated

[g_bambino]

The compelling argument is that you can NOT post any documented record such as provincial hansard as to how each province government debated and informed the people of their right of sovereignty and independence; as granted to the people and provinces by the statute of westminister.

Have you even read the Statute of Westminster?

[BornAlbertan]

I Believe the Canada Act of 1982 passed by the British Parliament and the Constitution Act of 1982 pass by Canadian Parliament pretty much makes this thread irrelevent. Afterall...we keep hearing about the Statute of Westminster which those two previous Acts either negated or replaced it.

Sorry...I better get back to my indoctrination

[g_bambino]

I Believe the Canada Act of 1982 passed by the British Parliament and the Constitution Act of 1982 pass by Canadian Parliament pretty much makes this thread irrelevent. Afterall...we keep hearing about the Statute of Westminster which those two previous Acts either negated or replaced it.

Sorry...I better get back to my indoctrination

Actually, the Statute of Westminster makes up but one part of the current constitution. The Constitution Act, 1982, just made the SoW a fully patriated Canadain law that mirrors the same legislation in the other Commonwealth Realms.

But, you're right: this thread really is irrelevant.

[M.Dancer]

So I can forget about a thread concerning the Magna Carta and why I we are in the pay of the crown?

[Hydraboss]

It maybe another thread but I was wondering if that is the direction Harper is trying to take this country when he said something about provinces being able to optout of transfer payments or maybe some of the other payments and go their own way. If I have this wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

As much as I would like to see it, I don't believe it will ever happen. The ROC losing it's O&G piggybank would constitute political suicide. IMO any changes to the system of transfer payments would amount to nothing more than name changes. You know, kinda like Ralph Klein's reduction of "taxes" but increase of "user fees".

[fellowtraveller]

Alberta hasn't separated largely because of their British heritage and ingrained reliance of getting aid from home. You and traditions die hard. It is not that they consider themselves Canadians but monarchist. when were Albertans told that the statute of westminster gave them their sovereignty and independence and given the choice to separate and change the powers of the federal government? provide Alberta government hansard showing where the people were given a choice ; such as if they wanted a triple e senate or any other changes. Just another demonstration of the people in power wanting no change so they never gave the people a choice to how they wanted to be governed. Canadians are still controlled by the old colonial power families and their privileged hangers on. If you won a contest and the people running the contest refused to inform you of your winning what have you won?

Here is an opinion from an Albertan: I think your Mum is going to be really, really mad when she gets home and finds you on the computer again.

[geoffrey]

you are missing more than one link, and your comments have no credibility. You should learn to read something other than your government propaganda. What link have you to support that no sons of wealthy were sent to live in Canada?

Oh damn. The education system has left another child behind.

Someone, refresh everyone's memory, why did the Reform/alliance party, I think Deb Grey, talked about Alberta going on their own.? I don't think any province or territory could go on their own, there's too much to lose.

Not us. Alberta could easily be a viable country alone, likely amongst the richest in the world. Most of my tax bill essientially goes elsewhere. Without Federal transfers, Albertans would be about $4,000 a year richer, each. Another $16,000 per average family.

Nah. We really don't need Canada. The only trade with do in the country is essientially with British Columbia, who'd I'd personally be happy to take with us. It's already easier for us to trade North-South than to anyone else here.

Seriously. Why do we stay? Simply answer, people are resistant to major change. Unless of course, something big enough or someone bright enough comes along to change that.

I support sovereignty for Alberta and sovereignty for Quebec, but on very different grounds.

Topaz, what exactly would we lose? Our expensive Quebec milk, our Kyoto commitments, our $4,000 per capita net transfer to everyone else in Canada?

We would lose absolutely NOTHING.

[luvacuppajoe]

Nah. We really don't need Canada. The only trade with do in the country is essientially with British Columbia, who'd I'd personally be happy to take with us.

Cool. I'd like to take you up on that offer one day.

[White Doors]

Oh damn. The education system has left another child behind.

Not us. Alberta could easily be a viable country alone, likely amongst the richest in the world. Most of my tax bill essientially goes elsewhere. Without Federal transfers, Albertans would be about $4,000 a year richer, each. Another $16,000 per average family.

Nah. We really don't need Canada. The only trade with do in the country is essientially with British Columbia, who'd I'd personally be happy to take with us. It's already easier for us to trade North-South than to anyone else here.

Seriously. Why do we stay? Simply answer, people are resistant to major change. Unless of course, something big enough or someone bright enough comes along to change that.

I support sovereignty for Alberta and sovereignty for Quebec, but on very different grounds.

Topaz, what exactly would we lose? Our expensive Quebec milk, our Kyoto commitments, our $4,000 per capita net transfer to everyone else in Canada?

We would lose absolutely NOTHING.

Your passport may change a wee bit. all federal agreements with the international community would be gone.

All federal institutions would be gone inlcuding the military.

Look a little deeper Geoffrey, you would lose alot.

[fellowtraveller]

Oh damn. The education system has left another child behind.

Not us. Alberta could easily be a viable country alone, likely amongst the richest in the world. Most of my tax bill essientially goes elsewhere. Without Federal transfers, Albertans would be about $4,000 a year richer, each. Another $16,000 per average family.

Nah. We really don't need Canada. The only trade with do in the country is essientially with British Columbia, who'd I'd personally be happy to take with us. It's already easier for us to trade North-South than to anyone else here.

Seriously. Why do we stay? Simply answer, people are resistant to major change. Unless of course, something big enough or someone bright enough comes along to change that.

I support sovereignty for Alberta and sovereignty for Quebec, but on very different grounds.

Topaz, what exactly would we lose? Our expensive Quebec milk, our Kyoto commitments, our $4,000 per capita net transfer to everyone else in Canada?

We would lose absolutely NOTHING.

As an Albertan, I'd support separation but only if we could leave Calgary behind too.

Welcome to Canada, the New Balkans.

[Hydraboss]

Your passport may change a wee bit. all federal agreements with the international community would be gone.

All federal institutions would be gone inlcuding the military.

Look a little deeper Geoffrey, you would lose alot.

I daresay that we (Albertans) have a better relationship with the only member of the international community that matters...the States...than the rest of Canada. We wouldn't need a military (although we would no doubt maintain one anyway...we can afford it) because the US would gladly protect us to protect their oil supply.

Loss of Federal institutions? Name one that we need from the ROC.

Seperation would be the best thing for Alberta, bar none.

[Hydraboss]

As an Albertan, I'd support separation but only if we could leave Calgary behind too.

Welcome to Canada, the New Balkans.

Come on, we can still allow Calgary to participate. We just need a small wall around the city and signs saying "Just Say No to Flames" posted around exits.

[geoffrey]

Your passport may change a wee bit. all federal agreements with the international community would be gone.

All federal institutions would be gone inlcuding the military.

Look a little deeper Geoffrey, you would lose alot.

Why do we need a military? Is Canada going to invade us? Nah. No need. This isn't the 1930's.

We can have all the arrangements with the international community we want. The US MUST bargin with us, they don't with Canada. The US cannot exist without our oil resources, it simply cannot. We call the shots in that game. What international community would not want to have a trade relationship with the newly crowned richest nation in the world with a top 3 in the world oil reserve?

Health Canada gone? Thank God. All it does it pushes paper. What exactly does Ottawa do for us that we can't do ourselves, better and cheaper? Absolutely nothing.

Your crazy if you think Canada is a net benefit to us in Alberta.

[guyser]

Why do we need a military? Is Canada going to invade us? Nah. No need. This isn't the 1930's.

We can have all the arrangements with the international community we want. The US MUST bargin with us, they don't with Canada. The US cannot exist without our oil resources, it simply cannot. We call the shots in that game. What international community would not want to have a trade relationship with the newly crowned richest nation in the world with a top 3 in the world oil reserve?

Health Canada gone? Thank God. All it does it pushes paper. What exactly does Ottawa do for us that we can't do ourselves, better and cheaper? Absolutely nothing.

Your crazy if you think Canada is a net benefit to us in Alberta.

Geoffrey, I admire your positive spin, but look farther than that. You are right that the oil is a big part of what you will be able to accomplish but.....

The US does not have to do anything and with the right people in place, could gently persuade them not to enter into trade.

Infrastructure repayments , monetary agreements, Indian land claims (now there would be a hassle) all the same things that were bandied about with Quebec. The there would be those that would leave , sure some would come there, but then restrictions on movement may make them decide otherwise.

It could be prohibitively expensive a proposition.

[bush_cheney2004]

We can have all the arrangements with the international community we want. The US MUST bargin with us, they don't with Canada. The US cannot exist without our oil resources, it simply cannot.

Of course it can...Alberta's oil production capacity would not exist without the US. Chicken or egg?

[geoffrey]

Of course it can...Alberta's oil production capacity would not exist without the US. Chicken or egg?

Where the hell are you going to find 3 million secure barrels a day tomorrow? Simply doesn't exist.

We need US capital, but not as much as the US needs our oil. Actually, we'd be fine with Chinese and Indian capital as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

Where the hell are you going to find 3 million secure barrels a day tomorrow? Simply doesn't exist.

ANWR...Alaska

We need US capital, but not as much as the US needs our oil. Actually, we'd be fine with Chinese and Indian capital as well.

Then why didn't you get Chinese and Indian capital years ago? Your own federal government tried to make a go of it and hosed things up good. The US is a market for many producers, including American.

[Wilber]

ANWR...Alaska

Then why didn't you get Chinese and Indian capital years ago? Your own federal government tried to make a go of it and hosed things up good. The US is a market for many producers, including American.

There is a lot of oil in ANWR. Technically recoverable reserves are estimated at 10.4 billion barrels but the US consumes 7.5 billion per year. Even if ANWR gets up an running at full speed it's daily production probably won't much exceed what is imported from Canada at best and if you have any brains you will use it to replace Middle Eastern and Venezuelan imports, not Canadian.

There was no demand for oil from China and India years ago and the capital wasn't there. It is now. China is now the second largest consumer of oil and India is number six. Take a trip to Shanghai, Beemers and Mercs all over the place and the biggest construction boom in history. Something like 70% of the worlds concrete is being used by China. Our government is passing legislation to prevent foreign government owned companies (read Chinese) from taking over Canadian resource companies because it is now considered a threat. The fact is, there are far more markets competing for commodities (particularly energy) than there ever has been and the rise of the Canadian dollar reflects that demand. Capital is like weather, it flows from high to low. This will make US companies attractive buys for Canadians. RBC and TD bank both acquired US financial institutions in the past month.

When it comes to natural gas you are about our only export customer but all we need to sell all the oil we can produce is a big enough pipeline to a port on the west coast. No doubt American companies would be welcome to participate in that project but if they didn't, at 80+ bucks a barrel I've no doubt there would be others lining up to fill the vacancy.

[geoffrey]

The US does not have to do anything and with the right people in place, could gently persuade them not to enter into trade.

There is zero economic motivation for anyone to not deal with Alberta. It's close, it's stable, it's a tax haven (3rd lowest overall taxes in North America, even with the burdensome Canadian taxes). If the US wants oil, they'll buy it from us before Saudi Arabia. Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't China? What reason would people have?

Infrastructure repayments.

As a net contributor to Canada, I'm unsure we'd owe anything, unlike Quebec. Can you really send a bill to someone that has been paying everyone else's for many years?

monetary agreements

This is a major issue that would have to be addressed. Using the Canadian or US dollar are options. Adopting a new currency would be ambitious. What of the Euro?

Indian land claims (now there would be a hassle)

Why would Alberta have to honour any of that? Ignore it all, throw out all agreements (Alberta has no agreements). The current agreements can stay as is, the rest, too bad.

The there would be those that would leave , sure some would come there, but then restrictions on movement may make them decide otherwise.

Restrictions on movement??? You can enter or leave Canada at anytime, that won't change. If people want to come to Alberta (as alot will for the ridiculous tax advantages), they will. Alberta and BC have the only free trade agreement in Canada that allows professional credientials to be completely recognized in either jurisdiction. I don't think Alberta will stall any movement.

Will Canada have to close it's borders to prevent a mass exodus?

It could be prohibitively expensive a proposition.

There have been plenty of studies that show Quebec seperation as economically viable. If Quebec, the welfare basket case of Canada, can do it, we certainly can without much grief. Alberta has plenty of borrowing power if needed, no debt on a GDP approaching that of Quebec... we probably have at least $50 or 60B in borrowing power seperate from Canada.

ANWR...Alaska

Your going to replace Alberta oil with Alaska?

And keep shipping it from terrorists in the Middle East at a premium? So much for common sense or the war on terror. Might as well pay al-Qaeda rather than US owned companies. The US dealing with anyone but Alberta for oil imports would be absolutely foolish. Economic sense dictates Alberta. Security dictates Alberta and the war on terror dictates Alberta.

And your going to go to the Saudi's?

What are you going to do about Midwest refineries and petrochem industry? Truck oil from New Orleans? Your kidding right? The only pipelines in are from Alberta.

Then why didn't you get Chinese and Indian capital years ago? Your own federal government tried to make a go of it and hosed things up good.

The Federal government hoses things up everytime it does anything.

The US is a market for many producers, including American.

I know, America has so much production! It might even break 25% of it's consumption with ANWAR extracting it's entire reserve in a year.

[no queenslave]

No province has to sepperate; just the people have to understand they have the right to re-arrange the l governments powers as they want.; as is your right given to you by the Statute of Westminster. No need to form a new party to get elected, because once elected it is to late to make changes because you have to swear servitude to the queen. In order to change from a colony to a sovereign country the people had to be given their sovereignty and freedom from British rule as a colony, and this was done by the statute of westminster; but most people have never been informed of this right. The meech lake accord was to trick you into ratifying the BNA act as a Canadian constitution and it failed ; so did the Charleton accord.

The lord Nelson hotel supreme case ruled the constitution belonged to the people not the federal or provincial governments and the governments could not change it only the people by a referendum.

If the government in 1931 had done what was required of them they would of informed the people that the people and provincial governments were sovereign and would be celebrating the day as Canada's independence day. Not doing so is fraud by omission ; and fraud invalidates all contracts and bills. You have been governed by an illegal government.

The government knows this and that is why we had the Meech lake and Charletown Accord in an attempt to make them a legal government. The government just assumed power without any legal authority ; just as a dictator does.

The sovereign independent people never created and ratified a constitution giving the government an legal right to govern or call themselves a democracy. Politicians running for an unlawful government and getting elected dose not make them legitimate.

If Canada had a legal constitution the politicians would swear in into office by swearing to uphold and obey the constitution.

It is up to the people to organize a meeting to formulate a constitution as to what power they want to give the provincial government; and then how much power to a federal government.

You can not find any such contract where the people ratified any such agreement, or any contract the provinces signed after their independence agreeing to give the federal government any powers as ratified by the sovereign people of each province.

The country is still governed as a colony by colonial rules. The BNA act was never a constitution of or for a sovereign country.

read -Alberta has the right to issue and use its own currency.and Canada a country without a constitution.

[no queenslave]

time to create a charter of equality and constitution wit no nothwithastanding clause .Quebec persons pay 13.5% less federal income tax rate then you; just so you can pay more equalization dollars to them.

[Hydraboss]

queenie, have you EVER made a post that didn't include the word "Westminster"?

My mistake. I just looked at the one before this...how about two in a row?

I hate Kwebek as much as anyone else, but you gotta admit they're the only province with balls.

[Hydraboss]

Alberta needs to take some notes from Kwebek's playbook. I live in Alberta, and we're kind of unique. I'm from the Alberta oilpatch and we're kind of unique. Oh, and I live near the Nisku industrial park, and we're kind of unique there, too. So I want to be known as a Nation within a Nation within a Nation. That's one more "nation" than Kwebek, so we win and we get to separate first. Pfft!

The Republic of Alberta should be setting it's own immigration policies, collecting it' own federal and provincial taxes, opting out of the transfer payment theft scheme, and canceling all, yes all, indian land claims and payments.

That would be a good start.

p.s. - I want all my EI and CPP money back. A certified check (not cheque) will do nicely. Thanks.

[no queenslave]

queenie, have you EVER made a post that didn't include the word "Westminster"?

My mistake. I just looked at the one before this...how about two in a row?

I hate Kwebek as much as anyone else, but you gotta admit they're the only province with balls.

Don't you think the recognition of YOUR SOVEREIGNTY AND INDEPENDENCE is important to you? If you want change this is the document that gives you the power to make any changes you want to Canada's system of government. The federal government might not like it , but if they object it will be confirmation of the dictatorship government you allow.

[no queenslave]

All provinces should have a free net royalty interest in any natural resource developed in their province of from 5-10%.