An appeal

[ScottSA]

Even if you don't agree with all or part, you must admit that this rhetorical prose is somewhat more stimulating than the bumper sticker chants and slogans of the dressup funny crowd.

“The time has comeâ€, the Walrus said, “to talk of many thing.†So, with apologies to Lewis Carroll and to the Bard, I ask, “Friends, Britons, countrymen, lend me your ears and consider this: You are under attack; your enemies are both within and without and their malignant intent is to take either your mind or your life.â€

Then I ask you to look around your homeland and decide for yourself whether the statement above is true or false. If it is false, or if this is the future you want, or are prepared to tolerate, do nothing.

But if there are those of you who see the truth of it, and choose to remain free men and women, then you must stand up and be counted, for time is running out. Perhaps, if enough of us do, we may find that we are not as few as our voices in the wilderness would make it appear, but that our lack of cohesion, of organisation, of mutual support merely substantiates the old axiom ‘divide and conquer’...

Read the rest

[M.Dancer]

Wonder Breadian with a dash of horse, radish........

[ScottSA]

Wonder Breadian with a dash of horse, radish........

Hardly.

[M.Dancer]

Hardly.

You should read it in the original german then.......

Wir müssen Widerstand irgendwie zusammen anschließen, werden ein demographisch, eine Stimme, dann Erhöhung, die in der wütenden Harmonie äußern und sie gehört über diesen Inseln bilden, bis seine Resonanz die Gezeiten- Welle von atavism zerbricht, das uns versenkt. Wenn wir nichts tun, dann regiert Grausamkeit,SIND unsere Enkel nur in der Lage, bis zweiundsiebzig zu zählen und sie werden verurteilt, um ihre Köpfe auf dem Fußboden im geistlosen obeisance zu einer ausländischen Gottheit zu schlagen, während sie ihren Übergang zu einer nicht vorhandenen Ewigkeit von debauchery erwarten.

[ScottSA]

It's not written in German. Never was. Can't imagine what you're talking about.

[Michael Hardner]

As we learned a long time ago, it's wrong to judge people on the basis of their religion, their race, their nationality.

Flowery bigotry and racism is still bigotry and racism. And no, I'm not shreiking it, screaming it, or wailing it. I'm just saying it.

[Higgly]

What he said.

[Black Dog]

The only difference between the stuff that spews from the GoV/D&D crowd’s +4 Quill of Cliché and the “bumper sticker chants and slogans of the dressup funny crowd†is the word count.

[Argus]

As we learned a long time ago, it's wrong to judge people on the basis of their religion, their race, their nationality.

Flowery bigotry and racism is still bigotry and racism. And no, I'm not shreiking it, screaming it, or wailing it. I'm just saying it.

There is no denying that Islam, as preached and practiced by most of the Muslim world, holds values which are diametrically opposed to much of what we believe in here in the West. In some cases those values are not merely opposed but distinctly hostile to some of our most cherished ideals and cultural values. It is not, therefore, bigotry, to consider the growth of Islam in the West, especially as it clings tenaciously to the same cultural biases, and violent prejudices of the lands which it came from. It is not bigotry to be opposed to that growth - it is simple logical self defense. The growth in numbers of Islam in the United Kingdom has been much worse than Canada, where Muslim numbers have been doubling every 10 years (though lately their growth has increased). And so the British are seeing the problems far more clearly than many in Canada. But you will see it. The irony is that those who most cherish a very liberal western value system are the ones most zealously defending the growth and spread of Islam.

[M.Dancer]

The only difference between the stuff that spews from the GoV/D&D crowd’s +4 Quill of Cliché and the “bumper sticker chants and slogans of the dressup funny crowd†is the word count.

What he said...........

[Michael Hardner]

There is no denying that Islam, as preached and practiced by most of the Muslim world, holds values which are diametrically opposed to much of what we believe in here in the West. In some cases those values are not merely opposed but distinctly hostile to some of our most cherished ideals and cultural values. It is not, therefore, bigotry, to consider the growth of Islam in the West, especially as it clings tenaciously to the same cultural biases, and violent prejudices of the lands which it came from. It is not bigotry to be opposed to that growth - it is simple logical self defense. The growth in numbers of Islam in the United Kingdom has been much worse than Canada, where Muslim numbers have been doubling every 10 years (though lately their growth has increased). And so the British are seeing the problems far more clearly than many in Canada. But you will see it. The irony is that those who most cherish a very liberal western value system are the ones most zealously defending the growth and spread of Islam.

Argus,

Your post is a good example of how bigotry is shaped, and shaded through so-called logical arguments. You can make a bogeyman out of anything.

Islam is just another religion. Your alarmist arguments have been used against other races and religions in the past, they're nothing new.

[Black Dog]

The growth in numbers of Islam in the United Kingdom has been much worse than Canada, where Muslim numbers have been doubling every 10 years (though lately their growth has increased). And so the British are seeing the problems far more clearly than many in Canada. But you will see it.

God knows what Muslims in Canada will acheive when they reach the same numbers as Lutherans.

[ScottSA]

Argus,

Your post is a good example of how bigotry is shaped, and shaded through so-called logical arguments. You can make a bogeyman out of anything.

Islam is just another religion. Your alarmist arguments have been used against other races and religions in the past, they're nothing new.

Nazism is just another credo. Alarmist arguments have been used against other credos in the past, they're nothing new. Your post is a good example of how the rush to embrace anything requires that you ignore even bogeymen.

See how empty your words are Mikey? Everything is "just another" anything. Communism is just another political system...Islam is just another religion...Attila the Hun is just another barbarian; but the problem is, Mikey, that the differences you so blithely gloss over involve the deaths of thousands and millions, and untold misery for millions and even billions.

Islam has shown its colours...Europe is only now starting to wake up to the threat. So-called "moderate" Muslims are actively working to abolish, piece by piece, the framework of the European Enlightenment. As we speak they are demanding that Europe revise its already harsh laws against free speech to encompass "Islamophobia" as well. Islam is not "just another religion" anymore than communism or nazism are "just another" political systems.

[Michael Hardner]

Hi Scott,

Nazism is just another credo. Alarmist arguments have been used against other credos in the past, they're nothing new. Your post is a good example of how the rush to embrace anything requires that you ignore even bogeymen.

Not that I'm buying into your false analogy, but did Canada ever keep out Nazi party members ?

See how empty your words are Mikey? Everything is "just another" anything. Communism is just another political system...Islam is just another religion...Attila the Hun is just another barbarian;

Yes, yes, and yes.

but the problem is, Mikey, that the differences you so blithely gloss over involve the deaths of thousands and millions, and untold misery for millions and even billions.

Sorry. I won't follow you into your incredible leap of logic. I'm still on the rational side.

When you write like this, you sound like those overly emotional anti-Christians who write about the 'genocide' caused by Christianity throughout the ages.

There are lots of murderous and ignorant cultures, some of which are religious and some of which aren't.

Islam has shown its colours...Europe is only now starting to wake up to the threat. So-called "moderate" Muslims are actively working to abolish, piece by piece, the framework of the European Enlightenment. As we speak they are demanding that Europe revise its already harsh laws against free speech to encompass "Islamophobia" as well. Islam is not "just another religion" anymore than communism or nazism are "just another" political systems.

Really ? You mean Europe is revising its laws to eliminate hate mongering ? Good to hear. Maybe France will soon be as tolerant as Canada.

[Argus]

Argus,

Your post is a good example of how bigotry is shaped, and shaded through so-called logical arguments. You can make a bogeyman out of anything.

And yours is an example of willful ignorance, of having no actual rebuttal but name-calling. You speak, for example, about "so-called logic" yet you have no counter to it, no rebuttal at all. If my logic fails then it should be fairly easy for an intelligent man to dissect. But you haven't because you can't.

Islam is just another religion. Your alarmist arguments have been used against other races and religions in the past, they're nothing new.

More ignorance. Islam is NOT merely a religion. It is a political system in every Muslim nation. The religious side and the political side are inseparable. Anyone who knows anything at all about Islam knows this, so again you have no counter-argument other than the written equivalent of sticking your tongue out.

[Argus]

God knows what Muslims in Canada will acheive when they reach the same numbers as Lutherans.

According to most estimates the numbers of Muslims in Canada long ago surpassed that of Lutherans, Baptists and Presbyterians. In another 10-15 years they will become the 2nd most populous religious group in Canada after Roman Catholics.

And they despise homosexuals. They think they should be, at the very least, imprisoned.

Does that mean nothing to you?

[Argus]

There are lots of murderous and ignorant cultures, some of which are religious and some of which aren't.

And you think Canada is being made into a better place by bringing over hundreds of thousands of members of those murderous and ignorant cultures?

Really ? You mean Europe is revising its laws to eliminate hate mongering ? Good to hear. Maybe France will soon be as tolerant as Canada.

France actually has far more severe laws against "hate mongering" than Canada has ever contemplated. They have done nothing to reduce tensions between Muslims and the rest of the populace.

[guyser]

And you think Canada is being made into a better place by bringing over hundreds of thousands of members of those murderous and ignorant cultures?

More hyperbole ?

I am unaware of every single person entering Canada as an immigrant belongs to an ignorant and murderous culture

Surely you could show us .

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

And yours is an example of willful ignorance, of having no actual rebuttal but name-calling. You speak, for example, about "so-called logic" yet you have no counter to it, no rebuttal at all. If my logic fails then it should be fairly easy for an intelligent man to dissect. But you haven't because you can't.

I have dissected it here and elsewhere and it does no good. Others have also done that.

Canada has absorbed countless cultures and religions. The onus is on you to show why this one religion is different.

More ignorance. Islam is NOT merely a religion. It is a political system in every Muslim nation. The religious side and the political side are inseparable. Anyone who knows anything at all about Islam knows this, so again you have no counter-argument other than the written equivalent of sticking your tongue out.

Islam is not a political system, it is a religion.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

And you think Canada is being made into a better place by bringing over hundreds of thousands of members of those murderous and ignorant cultures?

We don't 'bring them over'. They want to leave and come to Canada, just like many generations of immigrants before them.

Why is it necessary for you to misrepresent things so ?

QUOTE

Really ? You mean Europe is revising its laws to eliminate hate mongering ? Good to hear. Maybe France will soon be as tolerant as Canada.

France actually has far more severe laws against "hate mongering" than Canada has ever contemplated. They have done nothing to reduce tensions between Muslims and the rest of the populace.

That sounds interesting. Please explain.

[M.Dancer]

Islam is NOT merely a religion. It is a political system in every Muslim nation.

What are the political systems of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Malaysia and the Vatican?

[Peter F]

Islam has shown its colours...Europe is only now starting to wake up to the threat. So-called "moderate" Muslims are actively working to abolish, piece by piece, the framework of the European Enlightenment. As we speak they are demanding that Europe revise its already harsh laws against free speech to encompass "Islamophobia" as well. Islam is not "just another religion" anymore than communism or nazism are "just another" political systems.

Interesting...there are no moderate muslims. All Muslims are extremists...and they're demanding - DEMANDING, no less - that Europe revise its lasw against free speach.

oooh, scary, somebody demanded something....

[Black Dog]

According to most estimates the numbers of Muslims in Canada long ago surpassed that of Lutherans, Baptists and Presbyterians.

Stats Can figures from 2001 has the Muslim population at around 2 per cent, slightly behind the total number of Lutherans. But I'll concede that may have shifted and Muslims could be as much as 3 per cent of the total poplation, given the trends. But with Protestants still constituting more than a quarter of the population, they've still got an awful lot of ground to cover.

And they despise homosexuals. They think they should be, at the very least, imprisoned.

Does that mean nothing to you?

I'm not ever going to defend the illiberal and backassward beliefs of any religious groups. However, I simply believe that radical Islam has about as much chance of getting a toehold in public policy as Yogic Flying does.

Islam has shown its colours...Europe is only now starting to wake up to the threat. So-called "moderate" Muslims are actively working to abolish, piece by piece, the framework of the European Enlightenment. As we speak they are demanding that Europe revise its already harsh laws against free speech to encompass "Islamophobia" as well. Islam is not "just another religion" anymore than communism or nazism are "just another" political systems.

Easiest thing about being an Islamophobe (for lack of a better term), is that you don't even have to come up with your own tropes. Just dust off the old one's, replace "Jew" with "Muslim" and voilà!

Islam hasn't been a cohesive political force since the 8th century and it's nowhere close to being a cohesive politicla force today. As Islams detractors delight in pointing out, Muslim nations are at the bottom of the barrel in terms of education, health and economic wealth, a fact which people like SA and Argus trot out to show the fundamental ignorance and laziness of Muslims. Yet at the same time, they want us to believe these "backward, medieval goat-herders" (as Argus describes them) are on the verge of conquering western civilization by force of immigration alone. It's loopy shit. Again, I don't really take issue with the notion that radical Islam is anti-democratic and anti-liberal. I've just got better things to do than working my way through the global supply of Depends over the microscopic possibility of them taking over.

[GostHacked]

It is not Muslims who are changing things. They are having an influence yes, but it is the parliment of the countries (or for the most part Brussels) to counteract this kind of thing.

It is the governments and the political leaders who are changing things. Sure I guess some of them are Muslim, but the majority is not, and the problem lies in those weak neck poloticians to stand up and say... NO... FINAL NO.

I can influence all I can with the government, but it is those elected officials who are changing the rules. So blame the people that make the rules in the country, and not the muslims / Islam themselves.

M. Dancer

What are the political systems of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Malaysia and the Vatican?

Syria

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3580.htm ( I will een use the US's info here)

Type: Republic, under Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party regimes since March 1963.

Syria is a rebublic !!! Don't forget Regime is another word for Administration.

Turkey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey indicates it is a parlimentary rebublic.

Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt semi-presidential republic

Lybia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lybia is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamahiriya which seems to be a democracy directed by the masses )or population of the country)

Morocco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco Constitutional Monarchy.

Malaysia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia Federal constitutional monarchy

Vatican

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City Theocratic Absolute elective monarchy

The only country place that is governed DIRECTLY by a religion is The Vatican. M. Dancer intrigued me with this question. I am glad I took some time to find out. I don't see Islam ruling anything directly here.

Sure you can argue that Islam indirectly directs the government of some countries. Just like Israel is indirectly run by the Judism. But it is a Parlimentary Democray. The United States is a Republic, with strong Christian (and I'd say Catholic) influcences.

So no country is absent of religious influence and direction. None. But again, let's blame the Muslims for all our problems. Screw it, religion is the problem period.

[jefferiah]

Really ? You mean Europe is revising its laws to eliminate hate mongering ? Good to hear. Maybe France will soon be as tolerant as Canada.

And what happens when criticism of another group becomes hate-mongering. Then reasonable dissent becomes a criminal act, Mike.

What does it mean to ban Islamophobia? What do those who wish to ban it consider Islamophobia? Is criticism of Islam and talk of the prevalence of radicalism within the culture constitute Islamaphobia? If so, then how can anyone ever address this problem?

Would Ed Husain's views constitute Islamophobia?

"Husain has also explained that he believes Islam is in need of modernisation. In an interview with Time Out, Husain says: 'As I left extremism I realised that if you are born here and grow up here, then you belong here. The Islam that was preached 2,000 years ago isn’t going to work here in modern London. MUSLIMS NEED TO ALTER THEIR LIFESTYLES TO A WESTERN LIFESTYLE. To criticise is not Islamaphobic. It’s about opposing certain ideas.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Husain

How about criticism of CAIR or CAN-CAIR?

Edited October 20, 2007 by jefferiah