Reaction in Nova Scotia

[jdobbin]

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...sCBXlsFkf-IrMwA

Nova Scotia Premier Rodney MacDonald is touting his new offshore deal with Ottawa as a win for the province, but he has a tough sales job ahead of him as his minority government tries to earn political capital from settling the contentious issue.

Critics have pounced on the fact that the deal signed Wednesday with Prime Minister Stephen Harper is largely back-end loaded, meaning the province likely won't see a revenue windfall until 2019.

That fact wasn't lost on Nova Scotia's political opposition, which immediately accused the premier of getting short-changed.

Even the province's largest newspaper, the Halifax Chronicle Herald, weighed in Thursday with an editorial cartoon that suggested Nova Scotia's young premier had been had.

In the cartoon's first panel, MacDonald and Harper are shaking hands, in the second MacDonald's watch is missing.

Meanwhile, MacDonald's upbeat message was largely squelched by the incredibly hostile reaction offered by Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams, who characterized the deal as Harper's way of "preying on the weak."

The editorial cartoon in the Halifax Daily News highlighted the contrast between MacDonald and Williams. The drawing shows MacDonald and Williams eating bowls of 'Harper Offshoreos' - "Delicious," says MacDonald, while Williams says, "Tastes like the same old crap."

Still, MacDonald presented a confident image after a cabinet meeting Thursday in Halifax, brushing off Williams's assertion the Nova Scotian had said "yes to less."

"We got a great deal," said MacDonald. "It not only ensures that we will remain principle beneficiary of the offshore, it means $229 million dollars more over the life of the agreement."

David Johnson, a political science professor at Cape Breton University, said it will be tough for the premier to sell the electorate on an agreement that few understand.

It is going to take a little while for Nova Scotians to see what sort of deal they got. However, the media is reacting fairly hostile to it. We'll also see if Williams has as much influence on Nova Scotia as he does with Newfoundland.

[jbg]

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...sCBXlsFkf-IrMwA

It is going to take a little while for Nova Scotians to see what sort of deal they got. However, the media is reacting fairly hostile to it. We'll also see if Williams has as much influence on Nova Scotia as he does with Newfoundland.

Are you saying both provinces should get open sesame to both equalization and resource moneys?

[jdobbin]

Are you saying both provinces should get open sesame to both equalization and resource moneys?

That is what Harper promised when he ran for office. He never mentioned anything about one deal or the other until he became prime minister.

We'll see what the fall out is in Nova Scotia but many commentators are saying the young premier has been had by a smart prime minister. There has been few people lauding either the premier or the prime minister on the deal in Nova Scotia.

[old_bold&cold]

You see this is what still makes the Liberals such a bad party by example. They can not stand to see someone who may like the deals that were made with other parties, even though their whole ideas do not ammount to anything, they still forcefully try to portray any deal made, as being wrong headed. It si just the Liberal venom that keeps showing itself each and every day. That is why they will get no where in the next election. They are justa mean miseable party who needs to wait a decade or two, before anyone takes what they offer seriuosly again.

[jdobbin]

You see this is what still makes the Liberals such a bad party by example. They can not stand to see someone who may like the deals that were made with other parties, even though their whole ideas do not ammount to anything, they still forcefully try to portray any deal made, as being wrong headed. It si just the Liberal venom that keeps showing itself each and every day. That is why they will get no where in the next election. They are justa mean miseable party who needs to wait a decade or two, before anyone takes what they offer seriuosly again.

I think you are forgetting how Harper rejected what he is doing right now when he was in Official Opposition. The flip flop is his. The scorn from many commentators in Nova Scotia is his. The venom towards the idea of breaking the deal was his.

Edited October 15, 2007 by jdobbin

[Keepitsimple]

MacDonald is no dummy and I'm thinking that Danny Boy has overplayed his hand. MacDonald has got himself a reasonable deal that the rest of Canada can live with - he won't be double-dipping as Danny wants to do. But it's not just this deal - it's all the other deals that he knows can best be accomplished as a partner with the feds as opposed to being an antagonist - the Atlantic Gateway has just been announced for example. Danny on the other hand, makes it very hard for Harper to be generous with Newfoundland. Regardless of Harper's so-called promise before the election - if Danny got HIS deal, it would be bad for the rest of Canada. Can you imagine how Ontarians would feel if Newfoundland was getting more per-capita in Program money than Ontarians - and Ontarians (and others) were paying for it with their tax dollars? Danny should have made his point - which he did - win his election - which he did - and put his personal animosity behind him for the betterment of his province. He is starting to look very foolish and the rest of Canada, at least those that understand what he's trying to get out of Ottawa, are thinking that he's just a greedy, bitter, man. Enough already.

[August1991]

MacDonald is no dummy and I'm thinking that Danny Boy has overplayed his hand. MacDonald has got himself a reasonable deal that the rest of Canada can live with - he won't be double-dipping as Danny wants to do. But it's not just this deal - it's all the other deals that he knows can best be accomplished as a partner with the feds as opposed to being an antagonist - the Atlantic Gateway has just been announced for example. Danny on the other hand, makes it very hard for Harper to be generous with Newfoundland. Regardless of Harper's so-called promise before the election - if Danny got HIS deal, it would be bad for the rest of Canada. Can you imagine how Ontarians would feel if Newfoundland was getting more per-capita in Program money than Ontarians - and Ontarians (and others) were paying for it with their tax dollars? Danny should have made his point - which he did - win his election - which he did - and put his personal animosity behind him for the betterment of his province. He is starting to look very foolish and the rest of Canada, at least those that understand what he's trying to get out of Ottawa, are thinking that he's just a greedy, bitter, man. Enough already.

I don't know all the details of the agreement with Nova Scotia (and the deal on offer to Newfoundland) but I tend to agree with you.

This may well backfire on Williams and Newfoundland. In the early 1960s, Quebec (Rene Levesque in fact) offered Joey Smallwood a fair deal to develop Churchill Falls and transport electricity across Quebec. (It has always been a source of misunderstanding to Newfoundlanders that the valuable resource is not the waterfalls as such but the ability to get the power to a customer who can use it.) In any case, Smallwood refused Quebec's deal and wanted more. In the end, Smallwood accepted much less.

Danny Williams strikes me as a similar kind of ego-maniac, one man show negotiator. Danny Williams made his fortune in cable TV which means that his skill amounted to getting the CRTC to give him a license to print money. Like a stock investor who does well in a bull market, Williams has an inflated view of his own talents.

You see this is what still makes the Liberals such a bad party by example. They can not stand to see someone who may like the deals that were made with other parties, even though their whole ideas do not ammount to anything, they still forcefully try to portray any deal made, as being wrong headed. It si just the Liberal venom that keeps showing itself each and every day. That is why they will get no where in the next election. They are justa mean miseable party who needs to wait a decade or two, before anyone takes what they offer seriuosly again.

Agreed. There's an element of simple churlishness in the Liberal (and media) reaction to this agreement. Edited October 15, 2007 by August1991

[jdobbin]

I don't know all the details of the agreement with Nova Scotia (and the deal on offer to Newfoundland) but I tend to agree with you.

Agreed. There's an element of simple churlishness in the Liberal (and media) reaction to this agreement.

I don't know that you can separate the first statement from the last. You don't know what the agreement entails but it churlish of people not to like it.

It isn't what was promised during the election. In fact, it was a Harper who was adamant about such a thing not being done by the Liberals.

Moreover, you have stated your dislike for checkbook federalism. Is this not an example of it?

[old_bold&cold]

This is fiscally responsible federalism not cheque book Federalism. Times change and so do the ways to divide money that gets to balance out all of Canada to the best and most fair method. Harper is right to change positions if he sees a better way. It would be stupid to stick to a plan and never waver from it when it clearly is not working. This ame thing happened with income trusts. When it was seen that many large corporations were going to abuse all this and cost the tax payer money, thing needed to be changed. Yes it did cost many to suffer some but mostly those who were ready willing and able to screw over the taxation and therefore the voters. So different times call for different plans.

[jdobbin]

So different times call for different plans.

The Tories didn't care for whatever excuses the Liberals had for checkbook federalism or for flip flops. I don't see how this is any different.

[Topaz]

On the CBC this AM, Casey said he's been trying to get the agreement between Harper and Nova Scotia but he can't get any info. on it! The media has been asking the PMO for the agreement also and they can't get an answer. Casey also said that Harper is saying Casey wants agreement on top of agreements but Casey said he didn't say any of that and doesn't know where it comes from. Perhaps, Harper is so use to spreading the bull inside the walls of Parliament, where he can't be held responsible, he's forgotten not to do outside !! Since Harper won't let Casey back into the party, I say to Casey go create the RPC- the REAL Progressive Conservative party! I think with the way the Liberals are now, and Harper being a bully, the RCP could very well be in the PMO instead of Harper. I'm sure there may be people among his group that would go back being a PC rather than being an alliance conservative. The Bloc shouldn't be there, they can never ever be the government so kick them out!

EDIT:

This was the Opening Post of a redundant multiple thread: Is Harper bushing? Casey and the media wants to know

Edited October 15, 2007 by Charles Anthony
redundant mulitple thread

[Topaz]

The media and Casey have been asking for the detailed of the agreement from the PMO and they can't get any answer. I think Casey should start his own party and call it the REAL progressive conservative party and I think Harper party would disappear or go back to the rightful name of the alliance party!

[GreenWhiteandPink]

Equalization deal "no value" to NL

"This is of no value and no benefit and doesn't address the problems in Newfoundland," Locke told CBC News. "The difference between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, is Newfoundland will be outside equalization in 2009. Nova Scotia will never be outside equalization, not in this time period anyway."

[old_bold&cold]

Equalization payments are supposed to be done in a way that distributes wealth evenly accross the country. So if the province is now making enough money thru natural resources, and can compete and be just as financially competative with the rest, does anyone think they should also get equalization money to then make them even better off? Lets call it for what this really is and that is a money grab by NL to try to take advantage of the rest of Canada, in a way they feel they are owed. It is sad, because yes they were on the receiving end for the most part ever since they became part of Canada. Now they have a shot to become a rich province with oil and gas revenue, and they are whining about getting less from the federal government. Just wait for the day when they have to actually pay out more money to help out the other provinces who will not be as rich as they are. They will really pop a cork then.

I give NS credit for seeing the bigger picture and being able to work things out, in a calm demeanor. This goes to they credit for the day when they will be able to be a giving province in confederation, instead of a have not province. Lets face it, the tit is going dry for many of these coastal provinces, now that offshore resources have found their way to them. I would like to think that this is something to celebrate not whine about.

[old_bold&cold]

double post

Edited October 15, 2007 by old_bold&cold

[GreenWhiteandPink]

Why are you making this a seperate thread. You already said this here in this other thread http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=10056

And there is even another one about Casey already going as well. Do you think by making every tiny thing a seperate thread it will better suit your cause? I do belive that this is against the rules and while I seldom like to report anyhing, I do think you need to correct this asap. Otherwise yes I will report it.

That link is for this thread dumb ass! What the hell are you talking about?

[old_bold&cold]

That link is for this thread dumb ass! What the hell are you talking about?

That was posted actually in another thread started by Topaz, that has now been removed. I guess I double posted this by mistake and have corrected this. By the way please keep the "Dumbass" type of remarks to a minimum, as I could easily take offence at this, but I do know that sometimes people get heated in their posts, and I have done worse probably, but the admin here will call you out on these, even if it is not reported.

[Fortunata]

Steve doesn't care about the optics of vengeance toward Casey; he knows that people have a short attention span. He also knows his die hard supporters will follow along with whatever he does - and make up justifications for the actions to boot.

I know people scoff at the Liberals for having different opinions of things within the party right now but, to me, that's a good thing. People are different; they don't always see eye to eye even if they are of the same leanings overall. The "unity" of the Cons and NDP shows they can be whipped into submission; that there are consequences to even the slightest disagreement with the leader. Although Steve carries things to the nth degree. I can't see where an MP disagreeing with the leader should result in Steve's type of vindictiveness. I actually don't agree with any party kicking someone out of caucus over a differing opinion if that opinion is one that the constituents'. Our democracy just keeps on getting more democratic.

[Keepitsimple]

Who really knows what goes on behind the scenes. I would put my money on this scenario:

Harper probably told Casey "I'll continue to work to fix this - but don't vote against the budget. If you do, you're gone!".

He fixed it. Casey's gone. MP's know where they stand.

[Fain]

Stop Equalization handouts all together. Atlantic Provinces should create their own wealth rather than whine for money.

[jdobbin]

Stop Equalization handouts all together. Atlantic Provinces should create their own wealth rather than whine for money.

You can ask Harper for a constitutional change then. It can't be done without one.

[jbg]

You can ask Harper for a constitutional change then. It can't be done without one.

Is Equalization part of the Charter?

[jdobbin]

Is Equalization part of the Charter?

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

* Equalization is the Government of Canada’s most important program for addressing fiscal disparities among provinces. Equalization payments enable less prosperous provincial governments to provide their residents with public services that are reasonably comparable to those in other provinces, at reasonably comparable levels of taxation.

* The purpose of the program was entrenched in the Canadian Constitution in 1982:

"Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation." (Subsection 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982)

* Equalization payments are unconditional – receiving provinces are free to spend the funds according to their own priorities.

If Harper or the the right wing wish to change this they will have to re-open the Constitution.

[bush_cheney2004]

Is Equalization part of the Charter?

No, but they were formalized with Subsection 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 according to Wiki, after being instituted in 1957 as "transfer payments" and idea from an American economist. Looks to be only about $12 billion total, with most going to Quebec.

Edited October 23, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Fain]

You can ask Harper for a constitutional change then. It can't be done without one.

I'd rather ask him when he has a majority.

Opposition parties won't likely be on board for stopping he Handouts to Quebec and the Atlantic provinces.