"christian scammers/scandals abound"

[betsy]

As I recall, Christ didn't practice Old Testament Christianity either, and certainly made a few changes to the Bible too! do you consider him a scammer as you painted Mohammed?

As far as I know, Christianity started with CHRIST!

And yes, since HE is the Son of God and God had sent Him down to us, HE WAS AUTHORISED TO MAKE REVISIONS.

Now, I don't know much about Mohammad....but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things.

[Melanie_]

There's some debate about who actually wrote the Quran. I'm not sure that's why I used the words "apparently" and "said to be."

I've never heard of any debate before. Do you have any background regarding this debate? Everything I've ever read says that Muhammad was the founder of Islam and wrote the Qu'ran, although certainly anything historically pre-Abraham is common to Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

[betsy]

I've never heard of any debate before. Do you have any background regarding this debate? Everything I've ever read says that Muhammad was the founder of Islam and wrote the Qu'ran, although certainly anything historically pre-Abraham is common to Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

I never realized there was a question about it until I bumped onto it while surfing.

Anyway, since you're interested, here are some sites:

Who Wrote (Down) the Qur'an?

A conference produced in association with the

Middle East Center, University of Pennsylvania

When and how did the oral message of Islam's revelation became a book? Muslims believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad in the seventh century, transmitted by him orally to listeners in Arabia, and written down by his companions during his lifetime. Within decades of Muhammad's death, Muslim historians say, the faithful were able to hold a canonized Qur'an text in their hands, which is the same as the Arabic Qur'an of today.

Noted scholars—all leading authorities on early Islam and the Qur'anic text—consider the physical process of writing, collecting, and canonizing the earliest Qur'ans (rather than with the authorship of the Qur'an). Several journalistic accounts have appeared recently in the U.S. and Great Britain about the dating of the Qur'an, based on the discovery of early fragments of the Qur'an found in Yemen and about new interpretations of Qur'anic vocabulary. Would the religion of Islam, as the articles suggest, fall apart under historical and critical study of its Holy Book?

http://www.phf.upenn.edu/02-03/quran.htm

Now the question is, who wrote Quran or who was the author of Quran?

Hadith tells us that Muhammad was illiterate and was unable to read or write. So of course Muhammad did not write Quran. Muslims claim that Muhammad dictated the whole Quran to his followers and many of them memorized the Quranic verses word by word and later they wrote it down. The bottom line is that no one knows for sure who wrote the Quran.

After the death of Muhammad there was a time when Uthman the third Caliph of Islam ordered to burn all the copies of Quran except one. It was believed that there were variations in text and recitation practice of Quran at that time and so Uthman took this step. According to Quran and Hadith, Muhammad was the last prophet of Islam. So Uthman was not a prophet and we do not know whether he kept the valid and original Quran or destroyed it? We also do not know how he determined which one was the correct version of Quran?

Muslims claim that Quran was directly given by Allah and Sheikh Ahmed Deedat the Muslim Scholar and other Muslims have claimed that Quran is the word of God because it was written in first person speech unlike Bible, where third person speech is used. But the very first chapter of Quran is written in the third person speech.

Surah 1:1-7. "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."

This is not the only one example but there are many Surahs which are written in third person speech. So if we take the word of Muslim Scholars, Quran is not the word of God.

http://bibleandquran.com/quran-word-of-god9.htm

"Who Wrote the Holy Quran"

Quran, in Arabic, could only have been written by ONE of 3

possible sources:

1 the Arabs

2 Mohammad (peace be upon him)

3 Allah (GOD)

http://www.jannah.org/articles/quranwrote.html

Abstract

This article delves into the very authorship of the Holy Qur’an. It is a new way of looking at the Holy Qur’an. An enquiry is made using logical reasoning and historical references on the authorship of the Qur’an. Thus, this methodology is totally opposed to the blind believers who accept the authenticity of the Qur’an unquestionably. By analysing, dissecting and carefully interpreting the contents of the Qur’an, the Ahadith (Muhammad’s traditions) and Sirah (Muhammad’s biography) the author has identified several parties who had undoubtedly contributed to the composition of the Qur’anic verses. It was not Allah who wrote the Qur’an; it was not even Muhammad alone who did this either. The Qur’an is not the creation of a single entity or a single person. There were several parties involved in the composition, scribing, amending, inserting and deleting the Qur’anic verses. The most important personalities involved in the creation of the Qur’an were: Imrul Qays, Zayd b. Amr, Hasan b. Thabit, Salman, Bahira, ibn Qumta, Waraqa and Ubayy b. Ka’b. Muhammad, himself, was involved in the make-up of a limited number of verses, but the most influential person who motivated Muhammad in the invention of Islam and the opus of the Qur’an, perhaps, was Zayd b. Amr who preached ‘Hanifism’. Muhammad later metamorphosed Zayd’s ‘Hanifism’ into Islam. Therefore, the assertion that Islam is not a new religion stands to be true. However, the important finding is that the Qur’an is definitely not the words of Allah—it is a human-made scripture which Muhammad simply passed up as Allah’s final words to mankind.

http://www.challenging-islam.org/articles/...wrote-quran.htm

Edited October 14, 2007 by betsy

[Melanie_]

Thanks, Betsy, that's interesting reading! Of course, I'm an athiest, so I'm not a believer in any "scripture" being the revelation of Allah/God/Jahweh/Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's all one big scam, to tie it back to the title of the thread!

[jennie]

As far as I know, Christianity started with CHRIST!

And yes, since HE is the Son of God and God had sent Him down to us, HE WAS AUTHORISED TO MAKE REVISIONS.

Now, I don't know much about Mohammad....but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things.

So why do you still use the old testament?

Yes, it is obvious you don't know much about Mohammed, and yet you think you are 'qualified' to sling insults about him and the religion and all of the Muslim people?

[jefferiah]

So why do you still use the old testament?

The Old Testament is filled with alot of meaning, especially for a Christian. Ask a Messianic Jew, they are better than I am at explaining how everything that happened in the OT is symbolic of Jesus himself, like a foreshadowing.

If you are a Christian it is automatic that you believe Islam is false. You cannot reconcile the two. Same with all religions. The most important tenets of Christianity, for instance, are that Christ is divine, that he died for the remission sins, and was resurrected. In Islam Christ is not divine, and was never crucified. To be in agreement with Islam is to edit the most important point of Christianity itself. They do not gel.

So if a Jew or a Muslim were to say Christianity is false and wrong, this would only be natural. If you are Jewish and you believe in the coming Messiah, then anyone who claims to be one would be a blasphemer. So technically Christianity is blasphemy according to Judaism.

Edited October 14, 2007 by jefferiah

[jazzer]

There's some debate about who actually wrote the Quran.

As there is debate on just who wrote the Bible and/or parts thereof.

[jefferiah]

As there is debate on just who wrote the Bible and/or parts thereof.

I believe that the New Testament was kept in tact well throughout the years. The main reason I believe this is that if it were tampered with by the Roman Church then there would not have been a Reformation. There were no widely published Bibles before the Gutenberg press and even at that scripture was reserved for scholars who were worthy to study it. So for one it did not need to be changed. But the second thing, is that if it were changed one would think it would be changed to clear up the discrepancies between what Roman doctrine said and what Luther and others found that led them to believe Roman doctrine was theologically incorrect.

Edited October 14, 2007 by jefferiah

[betsy]

So why do you still use the old testament?

Why do you care?

Yes, it is obvious you don't know much about Mohammed, and yet you think you are 'qualified' to sling insults about him and the religion and all of the Muslim people?

No. I'm responding to this particular topic about scammers! It happens that there's this question regarding Mohammad's authorship plus his historical background which painted him in a different light so unlike the "holy men" image religion usually have.

And I did not pretend to know much. In fact, inspite of the various sources I gave to back up my statements....I still maintained a neutral position in the matter and referred to these as allegations so far hence I used the terms, "apparently" and "said to be."

Unlike some anti-Christians I know who will automatically use the human errors of priests and ministers (such as adultery and engaging male/female prostitutes), or criminal acts (molestations, abuses and scams) to smear Christianity entirely.

Kuzadd's opening statement seems to have already tried and gave the verdict of guilty.....when in fact there is still an on-going investigation. And again, just shows you....zealotry comes in all shapes and sizes.

And unlike you, who obviously know so little of Christianity....I made no pretense about being "qualified" to insult Mohammad....which brings me to question your own qualifications.

Besides, why do you call this an insult? I'm just bringing out the debates and questions that's happening regarding his alleged authorship of the Quran....and I gave sources backing up my claim that there are questions about it.

You levelled an accusatory statement regarding that "I think I'm qualified".....on what do you base this accusation?

So explain exactly where it says and how is it I think I am "qualified to sling insults about him and the religion and all of the Muslim people."

Edited October 14, 2007 by betsy

[betsy]

deleted.

Edited October 14, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

well I was having a little perusal of some sites last night and lo and behold there was Annie , on some radio talk show earlier: Kevin McCullough Her is kevin making the utterly absurd case that Deutsch somehow had ambushed her. On his blog later in the day, McCullough agreed. Kevin McCullough:

Deutsch, he said, "is an angry anti-Christian bigot, looking to make a name for himself by biting into Christian icons."

Boohoo Poor Ann, apparently the Donnie fellow framed her to boost ratings ,etc.,

who is Kevin McCollough?

http://kevinmccullough.townhall.com/

Townhall.com

as Annie is a featured columnist there

Townhall is a "right" site.

[kuzadd]

Thanks, Betsy, that's interesting reading! Of course, I'm an athiest, so I'm not a believer in any "scripture" being the revelation of Allah/God/Jahweh/Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's all one big scam, to tie it back to the title of the thread!

Melanie?

The Flying Spaghetti Monster, I love it!!!

What a religion.

Just like all the others.

Have you read through the site.

I have

[kuzadd]

The Old Testament is filled with alot of meaning, especially for a Christian. Ask a Messianic Jew, they are better than I am at explaining how everything that happened in the OT is symbolic of Jesus himself, like a foreshadowing.

If you are a Christian it is automatic that you believe Islam is false. You cannot reconcile the two. Same with all religions. The most important tenets of Christianity, for instance, are that Christ is divine, that he died for the remission sins, and was resurrected. In Islam Christ is not divine, and was never crucified. To be in agreement with Islam is to edit the most important point of Christianity itself. They do not gel.

So if a Jew or a Muslim were to say Christianity is false and wrong, this would only be natural. If you are Jewish and you believe in the coming Messiah, then anyone who claims to be one would be a blasphemer. So technically Christianity is blasphemy according to Judaism.

You may not have to agree, but one can accept there right to believe.

Muslims believe Jesus is a prophet

Jesus and Muslims

Muslims are required by God to believe in all of the Prophets. These include Jesus and John the Baptist peace be upon them. The Quran, the Islamic holy book, also instructs Muslims to believe in the books revealed to every Prophet as well. The book given to Jesus is called Injeel in the Quran

.

[Moxie]

These TV fundie fake preachers piss me off, they convince the old and sick to give all the spare cash they have to be healed or a promise of a blessing from god. I've seen some elderly people completely bankrupted by these organizations. They sicken me, they are as holy and moral as a bitch in heat (dog not human, or race or religion lest I offended the easy to offend). They steal from those that are suffering and are in times of personal tragedy and they exploit these people as they broadcast for donations. Nasty, nasty pickpockets who have no moral ethics. They are in it for the money, god is the product they sell.

[Melanie_]

Melanie?

The Flying Spaghetti Monster, I love it!!!

What a religion.

Just like all the others.

Have you read through the site.

I have

I've read through several different sites for FSM, and I have to say I've been tempted to convert to Pastafarianism, just so I can say, "All hail His Noodly Appendage!"

[jazzer]

These TV fundie fake preachers piss me off, they convince the old and sick to give all the spare cash they have to be healed or a promise of a blessing from god. I've seen some elderly people completely bankrupted by these organizations.

Nobody's holding a gun to their heads. I know many from that age group and none are fool enough to allow themselves to be bankrupt. You're talking about folks who went through the Depression here, and they value their money. But having said that, there are fools in every generation.

Edited October 15, 2007 by jazzer

[jennie]

Why do you care?

No. I'm responding to this particular topic about scammers! It happens that there's this question regarding Mohammad's authorship plus his historical background which painted him in a different light so unlike the "holy men" image religion usually have.

And I did not pretend to know much. In fact, inspite of the various sources I gave to back up my statements....I still maintained a neutral position in the matter and referred to these as allegations so far hence I used the terms, "apparently" and "said to be."

Unlike some anti-Christians I know who will automatically use the human errors of priests and ministers (such as adultery and engaging male/female prostitutes), or criminal acts (molestations, abuses and scams) to smear Christianity entirely.

Kuzadd's opening statement seems to have already tried and gave the verdict of guilty.....when in fact there is still an on-going investigation. And again, just shows you....zealotry comes in all shapes and sizes.

And unlike you, who obviously know so little of Christianity....I made no pretense about being "qualified" to insult Mohammad....which brings me to question your own qualifications.

Besides, why do you call this an insult? I'm just bringing out the debates and questions that's happening regarding his alleged authorship of the Quran....and I gave sources backing up my claim that there are questions about it.

You levelled an accusatory statement regarding that "I think I'm qualified".....on what do you base this accusation?

So explain exactly where it says and how is it I think I am "qualified to sling insults about him and the religion and all of the Muslim people."

Well, if you are slinging insults, then you must believe you are qualified to do so:

Now, I don't know much about Mohammad....but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things.

If you don't understand how that is an insult, just change Mohammed to Christ and see how it reads to you.

[ScottSA]

Well, if you are slinging insults, then you must believe you are qualified to do so:

Now, I don't know much about Mohammad....but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things.

If you don't understand how that is an insult, just change Mohammed to Christ and see how it reads to you.

Making the claim on behalf of Mohammed is an insulting but true statement. Changing 'Mohammed' to 'Christ' would make it an insulting and untrue statement. One might find it "insulting" to call Dahlmer a cannibal, and might test that hypothesis by changing 'Dahlmer' to 'Mother Teresa,' and ascertain through the test that it is indeed insulting in both cases; but any sane knowledgeable individual would know that even though it is insulting in both cases, in only one case is it without merit.

[jefferiah]

You may not have to agree, but one can accept there right to believe.

.

Of course, and I can also accept the right of someone of any faith to say that his/her faith is better and the true way to people who are not of his/her faith.

[kuzadd]

Of course, and I can also accept the right of someone of any faith to say that his/her faith is better and the true way to people who are not of his/her faith.

But, hold it there jefferiah, as I was perusing a number of site, over the entire, Annie incident.

I was on , I think Editor& Publisher.

In the readers comments section.

The writer pointed out:

That as annie said, she just thinks everyone should be Christian, cause it would be easier?? and "Jews to be perfected".

This is exactly the same thing that it is alleged extremist Islam is after, apparently everyone to be Islamic, now, I DO NOT know that to be true, because I cannot read arabic.

BUT, for the sake of this conversation I do KNOW for certain that Annie said that, everyone should be Christian inc. Jews, so they would be "perfected".

A writer wrote in and said Fundie Christian, Fundie Islam, both the same, same agenda (assuming this is the case with fundie Islam, though as I stated, I don't read arabic)

Fundamentalist Christians are the opposite side of the same coin.

I would agree 100 percent with that.

Second of all, had a Muslim?Arab said this, there would have been so much outrage.

This forum would be filled with reams of threads, spouting outrage over these statements.Holding the statement up as proof of Islam's something or another.

Instead we see, excusing of Anne's statement:

I can also accept the right of someone of any faith to say that his/her faith is better and the true way to people who are not of his/her faith.

BUT, because a fellow Christian has made the statement, silence and excuse making.

An appalling and apparent , blatant double standard.

Therefore Jefferiah... why is not OK, for a follower of Islam them to say there religion is the true way, and it not be met, with outrage.

BTW: Anne said quite a bit more then that, really.

[jennie]

Of course, and I can also accept the right of someone of any faith to say that his/her faith is better and the true way to people who are not of his/her faith.

Really?

I think that is disgusting supremacism and smacks of snakeoil salesmen to me.

Disgustingly rude.

Why can't people of faith just have the common decency to keep it to themselves ... hmm?

If it makes their lives so wonderful, that shouldn't be difficult.

[jefferiah]

Therefore Jefferiah... why is not OK, for a follower of Islam them to say there religion is the true way, and it not be met, with outrage.

It is ok. And they say it all the time. That, in itself, does not cause any great outrage.

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)

Edited October 15, 2007 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

Really?

I think that is disgusting supremacism and smacks of snakeoil salesmen to me.

Disgustingly rude.

Why can't people of faith just have the common decency to keep it to themselves ... hmm?

If it makes their lives so wonderful, that shouldn't be difficult.

No, if any of them are right, it can only be one of them since they all pretty much have contradictory points, so to believe in one of them is to believe the others are wrong. Those who believe they have a right answer usually do not keep their mouths shut. There is nothing supremacist about that.

[jennie]

No, if any of them are right, it can only be one of them since they all pretty much have contradictory points, so to believe in one of them is to believe the others are wrong. Those who believe they have a right answer usually do not keep their mouths shut. There is nothing supremacist about that.

Yes there is. They think only THEY know god. That is ridiculous and they place themselves above others.

I have no patience for organized religion. It is used as a tool to silence the 'masses' and keep them fighting with each other so they don't notice their precious church has been co-opted and they are being scammed by the 'moneychangers' whom we now call the 'multinationals'.

Edited October 15, 2007 by jennie

[moderateamericain]

I am absolutley disgusted by how badly this thread was Jacked. THE SUBJECT IS THE SPENDING HABITS OF THE PRESIDENT OF ORAL ROBERTS UNIVERSITY! its not about Islam or christian belief, we have seperate thread all about that. Thanks to those of you who actually kept on topic. Personally I think its disgusting that the American people are funding this kind of debauchery. If I were on the Judical board who took this case I would vote to pull there funding. If my kid was going there, I would pull them out of that school in a New York minute. Its a shame that Old man Roberts son has absolutely squandered the family name.