Army Guy

BD: Why not, are you saying that these people do not have a vested interest in there own country, a vested interest in thier own future, thier families future. The lebanese have chose to allow these terrorists operate out of there own country because there is a pay off, what that is i'm not sure probably some form of semi quassi peace in the region. And now that has ended and they are paying for thier decision. As for Israel not being able to wipe the terrorist out, is not due to the lack of miltary resouces, but rather the threat of world repercusions...that is what keeps the Israelis at bay...Those soft hearted westerners that gasp in horror as the media puts up death counts and few pictures of dead civilians...those are the people that have prevented Israel from correcting and solving this problem.

BD: So what your saying is because they don't share a border, Iraq is no threat. That would answer the question as to Why Israel was on a war footing in both gulf wars. because they thought Sadam and is cronies did not share a border. Of course that was what everyone thought before 9/11. Bullshit, Sadam did meet with Al quada members, which brings the question to WHY, if he was not interested in doing something...he regularly sponsored PLO terror groups, and has ties with Hamas and other Anti-Israel groups. And had the funds to create havoc anywhere. He may not of been top dog in area but he was a player and a threat. You know as well as i do you don't have to sell directly to the US ,to effect the price, supply etc...And while high prices are good for the oil industry, it sucks for everything else. These are not simple arty rounds that litter the battle field, they are WMD, these 500 arty shells would be more than capable of killing everything in a city greater than toronto in a few hours. something you don't want your enemy finding and then using again'st you. something that is strictly controled, it's very use is controled by sadam himself. In fact there very presence on a battlefield could escalated into something much bigger. Sadam knew this very well, in fact he had already been told by the british in gulf I that if chemicals were used Britian would use tac nukes. He was crazy but not suicidal. even Sadam is not that dumb as to bury them, then forgetting were he put them, i don't buy that for one second. Something of this value he would know it's exact location Even the UN inspection team has said there is evidance that he had capabilites to produce more than what was found, they highly suspected he did produce more ...which included a memo from Sadam not to destroy all his WMD. as for why he did not use them the same reason he did'nt use them the first gulf war. Because he knew that there use would cost him more than he could ever inflict on the coalition forces.

BD: Yes they were buried before, were they still buried there after the inspections is the question, and although they did not deliberatly bury them for the UN inspection teams they wer'nt exactly giving them a road map to there location either. Inspection teams found all kinds of evidance of Sadam moving his WMD around before and after the coalition air strikes. But that still does not answer the question of "where did this one chemical wpn" come from that was used for an IED. and is there any more... When it come down to his WMD yes, like i said he did take his security very serious and keeping a acurate account of a wpn that could kill him and override all his security measures in a blink of an eye...he may not have been the smartist brick in the building but you don't get to be a dictator of an entire country without some controls.

GC1765: There is no special warehouse storage practices, of nerve or mustard gas that will prolong the actual chemical itself. they don't freeze them or keep them cool, in fact in panama the US stored them in the open or just under a wooden structure, and if you can believe this in basements of barracks. Russians store most of thier wpns in old run down wooden sheds. Proper warehousing would only prevent the corrision of the container, or shell itself, not the contents Additives that are added to the agents are what is responsable for prolonging the agents life. I read your link, and it does contridict what i'm saying but read my link below it's from the inspection team reports. Why they are differnet i do not know but they both raise the questions as to WHY? So which one was it none , or just alittle bit, inspection teams find hard evidence that it was more than alittle bit. how much could be produced in 5 years ? Iraq has stated that purity and stabilization problems caused the program to be abandoned in 1990, in favour of the production of Sarin and Cyclosarin. At the beginning of 1989, Iraq had in its possession the necessary quantities of precursors for the large-scale production of V-agents. UNSCOM has concluded that VX was produced on an industrial scale. Precursor and agent storage and stabilization problems were solved. Furthermore, one of Iraq's documents on this subject, dated 1989, proposes "the creation of strategic storage of the substance (VX - hydrochloride, one step from conversion into VX) so it can be used at any time if needed". Iraq denies that it weaponized VX. Sampling by UNSCOM of special warheads has thrown significant doubt upon this claim [s/1998/920]. Iraq stated that the VX it did succeed in producing had poor stability. Through sampling, however, UNSCOM said it has found traces of a VX stabilizer, indicating that in all probability the VX produced by Iraq was more stable than they have thus far admitted. My whole piont of this is to show you that with this stabilsing agent, these munitions could last for many years. And yet there is this report that says after 7 years the mustard agent found was still between 94 and 97% pure. This agent is still very lethal and still capable of inflicting mass cas. So was it degraded yes, but not beyond where it was no longer lethal. Besides if it was just a matter of laying them out in the sun to degrade until they were non lethal, why would the US and russia be spending millions on disposal sites. A dozen mustard-filled shells were recovered at a former chemical weapons storage facility in the period 1997-1998. The chemical sampling of these munitions in April 1998 revealed that the mustard was still of the highest quality. After seven years, the purity of mustard ranged between 94 per cent and 97 per cent. Iraq still has to account for the missing shells and to provide verifiable evidence of their disposition. In July 1998, Iraq promised to provide clarifications on this matter. To date, only preliminary information has been provided by Iraq on its continuing internal investigation[s/1998/920]. My Webpage True, but these wpns are designed with such things in mind, and in the 90's chemical agent process such as the Iraqis had were able to produce very stable very deadly agents. to the piont when a small drop would lead to death. even after long term storage. The US has many interests in the region , one including Israel, the other OIL and it's price, one just has to go to the pump to find out what Iraq could have down to the US. Sadam has also supported terrorist organizations, in the region with funding etc. So he was a indirect threat to US interests. As for a threat to Canada, i know i thank sadam and the US everytime i fill up my gas tank , but why threaten Canada we are a heaven for terrorists, and other scumbags.

GC1765: I'm still confused as how you came to the conclusion that those Chemical wpns found in Iraq were Expired. When i've provided more than one link to prove that chemical wpns, be it shells, bombs ,storage containers, are capable of keeping chemical agents in lethal form for 10 to 100 years, as the below link says chemical shells unearthed from WWI, still are very lethal. My piont is this if sadam has buried any chemical wpns anywhere even today they would still contain lethal chemical agent. Thier storage containers may be degrading but thier contents are still very lethal. The fact that he did not destroy "all" his chemical wpns is in direct violation of the UN agreement. even for one to go missing would be a huge security issue, Sadam was very parnoid when it came to security, I'm sure he knew exactly where each one of these wpns were, at all times. Historical experience indicates that chemical warfare agents dispersed in the environment, as through detonation of chemical weapons, lose their unique agent toxic effects essentially completely over a period ranging from minutes to weeks or months, depending on the agents, weather, soil, and other factors. Stable agent breakdown products may remain, however, in generally very low concentrations, which may in turn retain some much lower level of toxic effects associated with their chemistry (as for industrial chemicals, organic solvents, etc.). Our experience indicates, however, that chemical warfare agents which remain in storage containers or munitions, or which are otherwise retained in bulk quantities, can retain essentially all of their toxic agent properties for many years. Even unexploded munitions recovered from the World War One era are often found to contain chemical warfare materiel that has been but little degraded in its toxic effects by the passage of time. For this reason, recovered suspect chemical warfare munitions and containers must be treated with extreme care, and handled and disposed of only by properly trained authorities.74 My Webpage What is the piont of having a UN resolution if your not going to back it up with force. whats the piont of having any law or rule if it's not going to be backed up with consquences. Was sadam a threat , the historical record will show yes, did he comply with all the UN resolutions, NO...So perhaps you can explain how he was not a threat to the region, to the rest of the world. Both sides have little evidance that Iraq did or did not have WMD, after the 1 st gulf war, But that does not 100 % confirm that they don't exist, Chemical wpns have been found in Iraq, the question remains how did they get there, these wpns like i said before are strictly controled, you don't just lose one or leave one laying around. how do we explain the sudden appearance of this one used as an IED. It's a question that needs an answer, just because this wpn did not go off as planed does not mean the next one will not. maybe next time it won't be used in Iraq but perhaps in the west.

GC1765: Perhaps this link will answer your question, please note that these are under perfect conditions, but both Sarin and Vx used by the US is from 27 to 100 years, and this was manufactured in the 50's. My Webpage The 155mm found was of french orgin, which stores the 2 main chemicals that make up Sarin apart in separate parts in the shell, and is mixed only after it is fired. those 2 that were injured "could have been from any one of a dozen reasons, but they don't get into details, But it did say they were EOD, and they normally pack large amounts of plastic explosives around the DUD to ensure that chemical agent is consumed in the explosion and fireball.

BD: The UN considers them WMD, NATO, ETC. Your links are alittle misleading, Yes a single chemical bomb and arty shell by it self is not going to kill thousands on an open battlefield, but on the battle field it's rarely used in singles but rather in several dozens, so getting a lethel dose is not a problem regardless of temp, weather, etc. another example would be a fighter a/c equiped with chemical agent sprayers flying at tree top level at over 600 km a hour, one pass would be all thats needed for a lethal dose. You'd be well on the way to dieing before you even figured out what was going on. Now introduce the same wpn in an city enviroment and Yes a single 500 lb chemical wpn will kill thousands, your link down plays it's effects, considerably, perhaps they should check out research that was done in CFB Suffield, were large tracts of the training area are still out of bounds due to chemical testing in the 50's and 60's. Or ask those vets that are begging for compasation for exposure to chemical agents. And Yes, soldiers are scared shitless when they are taught about Chemical warfare, for a good reason it's deadly. to the piont they expect 30 to 50 % cas and thats soldiers that have IPE gear(protective clothing) civilian cas are much higher. Nerve gas.

gc1765 Actually your wrong, Russia has the most declared chemical wpns. how much is undeclared is unkown. My Webpage Its also funny that the old warsaw pact countries are not on the list of countries destroying chemical wpns. when they had huge stock piles during the cold war. My Webpage

there seems to be a few misconceptions out there in regards to chemical wpns. Most chemical wpns are consider WMD, ( during tyhe first gulf war England had threaten to use nuks if the Iraqis used chemicals)They are very effective on and off the battlefield( against military or civilian targets). So much so that most modern armies have spent billions in detection, decontamination, and survival equipment. VX gas is considered to have excellant adhessive qualities and almost impossiable to decontaminate, small quanties can kill thousands, with some agents only requiring a pin head worth to kill. modern armies will saturate an area to ensure a lethal dose. is below link. My Webpage My Webpage There are many types of nerve agents yes, some have very short shelf-lives, while other have very long shelf lifes. It depends on alot things such as type of agent, how it is stored, how the chemicals are mixed in the shell or bomb. etc etc. it's important to note that most nerve agents that Iraq had did have a long shelf life. as the below link will prove. Used as an IED, where they found it is beyond my guess, but i'm assuming it was manufactured in the 90's left over from the 1 st gulf war. Chemical wpn found I know there was a training film that we used to used "filmed during the destruction of Iraqi arty shells filled with Sarin liquid (after the 1 st gulf war)"made by the french" the shell ruptured and soaked 2 american and 2 british soldiers,fully dressed in NBCW suits, plus 2 iraqi civilians wearing nothing, but a dust mask. both the Iraqis died within minutes the 4 soldiers did manged to suvive after serveral hours on decontamination and medical aid...it should be noted that these shells were several years old and very corroded... I'm not one to add to the confussion already out there due to the lack of solid evidance, it does not prove that one way or another there is or there is not WMD in iraq. Just because they have not found them does not prove they do not exist. That secret will die with sadam and his cronies. still looking

RUE: Unlike some posters i thought your post was more of a long winded rant, most of it based on your opinion of what is happening on the ground in afgan, one based not on fact but NDP type here say. And like a majority of Canadians they truely do not know what is going on, not because the info is not available but because it was not spoon feed to them. That and the fact that Canada is on this Anti-america fade, and refuse to believe that some good could actually come out of this mission. i believe this has been explained over and over again, "we" are not thier to occupy anything but to assist the "elected" GOVERNMENT. Yes, because the Canadian army is the best army in the world for this type of operation. and proving that we are better than the US military, is not all that hard in this type of mission. And how would this be different in Dafur, as you suggested. I fail to see your piont ? It may be an invention as you stated by Christians but those borders are excepted by all muslims and christians today, and those same muslim countries have been at war with each other over those same borders for some time now. It's government was freely elected, and it's present government may not compare to ours in regards to laws and customs. But you make it sound that the Afgans were better off with the taliban, drug free. Can you provide one shred of evidence of this. Is it really and you've researched this ? enlighten me please. Have you been there? have you talked to the people, Are you part of the diplmatic mission, then just how or where are you getting your info to make judgements as you have ? Not only are we building Schools, hospitals,etc etc alot of this extra activities are done on the soldiers spare time, at thier own expense, at thier own peril. your info shows your lack of knowledge of what is going on but insults all the efforts our soldiers are doing over there. The last time i was over there our unit headed up a fund raiser event that purchase a new wing of a small hospital and a new AMB. Agian this has been said over and over again, you need a large military conventional force on the ground to make this mission happen. This is funny, Canadians did not have a problem with having those same killers helping them during the Ice strorm , or the floods in winnipeg, or the countless forrest fires. they had no problem inviting these killers into thier homes to feed them, in fact they were glad we where there to assit, Again a statement that once again proves your lack of understanding of the current situation in Dafar, and in the useless organization called the UN. Why change one mission for another, Why do you except Dafar mission over the Afgan one ? Your last statement says it all it's not that either mission is more important than the other just that Dafar is not a US mission, or has US involvement.

Black dog: Those Insurgents "meaning afganis, and foriegn fighters" that have been captured in combat have readily confessed that they are either taliban or Al quada. For these extremists it is a great honor for them to kill western troops, that being said laying claim is also part of that right. so when nobody else claims responsibilty. it is can be assumed that they in fact did what they claimed . Locals are pionting out members within there own tribe as you call them. other claims are investagated, keep in mind this is not Iraq, we must have proof and that is done through survailence and investagation before arrests are made.. Correct me if i'm wrong but it was al quada that flew into the trade towers right, and thier are no garentees that they will not bring thier fight to North America again, so why not fight them in afgan on thier home turf. instead of in our streets. That is a matter of opinon i guess, but i personal think that our present freedoms are worth fighting for and defending. As for dying in afgan for our values your wrong Canadain soldiers are dying for our values, without these values i don't think we would be there in the first place. Your right a majority of afgan do not share all of our values, but there are some they do share like the right to freedom, to raise they're families with out war, to work and feed thier families, to be able to attend school, to have the basic human rights...and because of our Canadian values we as Canadians are willing to risk our lifes to help them get some of what we take for granted. Your right great powers are not so concerned about trivialities, but then again they are not on the ground we are and those things are what drives soldiers to do what they do. Not true your freedoms are being eroded every day, with the nation trying to keep the scumbags out. longer waiting lines at the airports, more tax dollars being spent on security measures, tougher imigration rules, How many laws have changed in the name of national defense in regards to our personal freedoms look how many rights in the US and Canada are being bent in the cause of national defense..., listening to personal phone calls, with out warrents...etc etc. So are you being effected Yes, it all change on 9/11, and Bin Ladin crew. Come on BD, out of a nation of 36 million we have a military of 62,000 military personnel including 9,500 sailors, 19,500 soldiers, 14,500 air force personnel and 20,000 administrative and support personnel. There are also about 22,000 reservists. Not enough to fill a national hockey rink, NY city has more police officers, there are more female marines than our entire military machine ..Shit how many canadians even seen a military person in uniform up close... I will agree with you that the military must be be hald accountable to the people and must be of reasonable size. and i think all would agree our military is far to small for any of it's missions that canadians want to do.

Leafless: What about Cypress, Golan, Bosina, to name a few. Your link is no good, perhaps you can explain just how it is similar to Vietnam. The taliban and Al Qaida are being funded by drug mooney ,but it is not the sole source of thier funding. As for Nato being sitting ducks, in regards to IED's,mines, yes i would agree with you, but the rest of the time they are the boys with all the toys, and when the insurgents decide to attack in numbers it normally ends one sided. It's funny that the soldiers don't feel like sitting ducks and actually believe they are making a difference. No you said: which lead me to believe that there are only 17,000 troops in Afgan... To which i replied: I think you misunderstood my numbers, NATO forces include all those under ISAF, and do not include US forces. NATO will have just over 16,000 by end year with numbers planned to go as high as 25,000 by end year. US numbers in AFGAN right now est over 19,500 and will decrease to 16,000 by end year. these numbers do not include the over 3500 other forces under direct command of the US. Note that total number of troops in afgan by end year is well over 37,500 with plans to bring that number to 46,000 troops in country this does not count the amount of troops out of country as reinforcements which i believe number another 3500. The US government has reinforced it's numbers by i Airbourne Bn due to recent violence, and is now reconsidering it's commitment to withdrawal down it's forces. So yes your numbers are right out of er. NATO forces are different than US forces as US forces are not there as part of the NATO force. which has created 2 separate chain of commands and 2 separate missions in the same country. My Webpage My Webpage Sorry my bad, what i meant to say was the democracy being formed in afgan is not the same as the democracy as we know it here in Canada. It still a government that was elected by the Afgan People, and is a thousand times better than the taliban regime in regards to quality of life for the average Afganis. We are not forcing anything on the people, and they welcome all the changes with open arms actually some are complaining that the change is to slow. And if you mean idealistic conditions like being able to sleep in your own home without being awoken by terrorists that kill family members in front the rest of your family in the middle of the night, or being able to go to the now open markets and stores without fear of getting blown up. then yes And just to clarify , it's not our idealistic conditions but the ones that are set out by the elected afganis government.

Black dog: There is plenty of evidence, Capture insurgents have claimed they are fighting on behalf of the taliban same as AL Quada. Intelligence gather in the field suggests that the taliban are alive and well, and in numbers to openly attack Nato and US forces in the open. What more do you want, besides do you have evidance that they do not exist, or is this some theory. Again those that have been captuere have no problem telling you whom they are fighting for. The taliban or Al Quada have no problem claiming responsibility for bombings, attacks,etc. yes there is many different groups with separate agendas and all the attacks have not been blamed on the taliban. Of course there is the locals themselfs who will piont out whoms whom, Have you watched a bin laden tape, i think they make it pretty clear, that all the western countries are a target Canada included. But thats the problem with some Canadians they simply refuse to believe that someone would want to attack Canada. "they will leave us alone if we leave them alone"...but when some terrorist blows something up in Canada they'll be the first to scream "what do i pay you for" Viable terrorist threats have already happened in Canada. Time to wake up. What could be equal or more important than than defending your freedoms that you have right now. Police soldiers have signed on not only to risk thier lives on a daily basis but to die if nessicary to ensure we keep those freedoms. Yes there are some nobel occupations or deeds that are done every day, but those persons are also recongized. Is that what this is all about carrying a gun ? Or is it that these persons are willing to risk everything to bring alittle more peace to the world, that they are willing to die for thiers and Canadian moral values. How many Canadians would do that. I'm just assuming here but i don't think that the majority of Canadians feel the same way you do. The fact that there is somebody out there in Canada that is willing to sign up so they do not have to, to ensure that you and them can maintain the same level of freedoms and rights you have now,is worth the 2 seconds it takes to turn over the front page or listen to a 30 second news bite on one of our soldiers. I'm just curious BD were did you stand on the government not allowing the media on the tarmac in trenton ? As it is the media and the people that make it so news worthy or note worthy and if the majority felt differently then i would agree with you. Frankly your wrong, Canadians may have some praise for the military( a recent development) but absolute reverence now thats funny...perhaps that could explain the reason our military is in shambles. And perhaps you can explain the praise and ABSOLUTE reverence that the soviet union used to have for it's military, lets talk about China, and Japans military prior to the end of WWII. the list gos on...in fact it's in democratic countries that a military is seen as poor third cousin and just barely tolerable. Yes the US is perhaps an exception.

The military has been telling anyone who will listen that there is a critical shortage of every trade in the entire armed forces, Army combat units are well below there peace time numbers, and are reinforced by large numbers of reserves or borrowed from other brigades just to scrap enough troops for a single ROTO in afgan. But because the army continues to get the job done our government does little to correct the situation. And it is causing burn out in our troops at an incrediable rates. And to top it all off there is an incrediable equipment shortage in most combat units, most operating on just half thier peace time allotments. and some with even less. Meaning that equipment is constantly being used as we still have to train everyone, there is not enough time to properly repair this equipment as it is in constant motion, add to the fact there is a parts shortage and it spells equipment being used up faster than orginally planned. No monies to replace it. But hey Canadians already know this. and are content with the way things are.

Leafless: Perhaps you can explain our so many successes in regards to other long term peacekeeping/ peace making endevours. Yes it is, but that happens when your country has been at war for more than 50 years, with very little peace in between those years. But then again so were most of the countries that we have done peacekeeping mission in. But that is not really what your saying here is it, Afgan is not worthy of our help. Your numbers are right out of er, Nato alone has 16,000 troops in place by end year, plus there are 21,000 American troops plus 3500 under direct US control, The Americans have already begun to add to thier numbers by sending over an Airbourne Bn. Then why go in there at all, rebuilding this nation is going to take 10 to 20 years, with the need of heavily armed forces atleast another 5 years. Nobody likes to start a job and not finish it, and by pulling out thats exactly what your telling our troops. Canada does have enough equipment and manpower to do this mission barely. What is suffering is the units based in Canada. Our Military is not designed for peacekeeping, which is a myth told to the people of Canada by our government. Despite the best efforts of previous governments to get rid of the military. Our Military blue print is based on a cold war situation, equipment wise we've gone from a high intensity warfare capabilty to a meduim intensity capability which is quickly being eroded. Installing democracy as we know it is not the goal in Afgan, but rebuilding a government and nation that will improve it's quality of life for all Afganis. to bring peace to the region, And yes corruption is found at all levels in Afgan. what you fail to understand is there is nothing in Afgan, drugs and coruption is the only industry currently available to feed thier families. once security is established that will slowly change as new industry is interduced.

Black dog: The death of any Canadian citizen that has signed on as unlimited liability ( may be asked to give thier life while performing thier job) is a great tragedy. regardless of them being a soldier ,police officer, fire fighter etc... They are performing jobs that need to be done so that the Many, can enjoy lifes pleasures that we all take for granted. In todays times the loss of any soldier is a great deal and should concern all of us. now if you are comparing the loss to the losses suffered on D-Day or any otther great battle you may have a piont, but we are not talking about that are we. So i ask you why today the loss of a soldier is not a tragedy?

geoffrey: Well said.

Black dog : Would you agree that a vast majority of Canada's long term peacekeeping missions have be successful. The problem is time,It's everyone enemy in todays world, but establishing a new nation takes years...and we have just begun in Afgan, and in 5 years from now you will proably see the UN in Afgan, doing more traditional peacekeeping work. But then again we all knew that before we went into Afgan, and if we can't stand the line against a few scum bags then why did we go in the first place. should have kept our heads buried in the sand and let them scum bags play the bongo's on our arses.

Rue: Perhaps you can explain what the problem is, are you suggesting that soldiers are incapable of developing democracy. Canada's military have been doing it for over 30 years now are you saying were doing it wrong. Is there really a fear of the americans not liking us ? or Do Canadians have a passion of doing everything and anything that tells the world we are Anti US. As for Afgan being a half ass mission me and thousands of Canadian troops don't seem to think so but then again what do i know ? Our mandate is not confusing some of it is in the below link. Our military has done this concept you think is impossiable for more than 10 years now it's called the 3 block war concept, fighting in one block, providing humanitary support in another, and nation building in another. To accomplish all this takes more than just the military , RCMP, diplomates, and months of training by all involved. I think your finding it hard to wrap your mind around the fact that todays soldiers is capable of more than just fighting. My Webpage Your under estamating just what a conventional army is capable of doing. And right now in Afgan they are taking the fight to terrorism on a daily basis, and they are making a difference. But they are also helping in rebuilding a nation and yes they are making a difference there as well. like you said give credit were credit is due, Canada's military is a team effort one is depend on all elements of our military.. My Webpage

Black dog: And if it took that long to have Afgan stand on it's 2 feet free from war, and all that it comes with it would the effort not be worth it.

Temagami Scourge: Yes for a liberal Initiative they really showed support for their past leadership and now can't make-up thier minds what side of the fence they are on. And was it really a liberal intiative or did they decide on default, to palcate the americans as we did not go into Iraq. As for it being a training ground Yes it is, But do we blame the US for that, why not put the blame where it truely lies. Lets start with religous extremists, education, thier own countries of orgins. Do the extremist really need a reason to die for Allah, todays flavour is the US what will tomorrow bring. I think the Canadian people should also shoulder some of the blame as well, Our armed forces did not get into the state it is in now overnight. It is all good to say we should do our part here and here and here but on a shoe string budget we are lucky to accomplish one mission.

NoCrap: Perhaps you can tell me just how it is that Soldiers lose, how Canadians lose. Have you even heard what 99 % of our soldiers have been saying about this mission, You know the men and women that are on the ground right now. Thats the problem with most Canadians they don't listen....They dismiss them as just dumb grunts, what do they know about rebuilding a nation. So i ask you WTF do you know about nation building. The reason most Canadians fell uncomfortable about this mission is because of the misinformation coming out of the Liberal, and NDP parties. That and the fact that both parties hate the US and it's current government so much that they let it get in the way of sound judgement. Before you throw on 60's vest with the peace symbol on it, you should do some research on Dafar and tell me what the difference is between Dafar and Afgan in regards to the actual mission there. Show me just how you came to this conclusion ? Because from a soldiers piont of view, todays NDP know nothing of peacekeeping or nation building.

Pocketrocket: What event or problems make you think so. It was a different war, in different times, A majority of Afgans want peace want to live a normal life. The Taliban is not out, and still are a threat to the new government which is not strong enough to stand on it's own as of yet. Thats the problem the existing government does not want western troops in thier country, so unless we invade, legally what can we hope to achieve.

geoffrey: We already have a very limited amount of pers (just over 50 pers)already in the Sudan, working as advisors. keep in mind that most of these operations are done by the army, and they are only using 2 depleted brigades to man them, the 1 st from Edmonton and the 2 and from Petawawa ont, The 5 th brigade in Que is not included, for reasons unknown... My Webpage The Darfur conflict is not over, the government in power does not want western forces there, Current African UN forces are assisting the government in routing out rebels, and other organizations. It is not a peace keeping mission but another combat mission. All this info is available on the web and must be known to our NDP members, which is why i can not figure out why they want to exchange one mission for the other. Canada is doing all it can for the 3 rd world right now, This is another problem and misconception, Canada's military is not a humanitarian organization, it was not designed to, it does not have the training nor the funding to do humanitarian work. This is one of the major reasons that our military is not properly equiped with equipment design for war, past governments have chosen equipment that is multi purposed, to serve both functions,( peacekeeping and limited warfare) and have chosen not to purchase offensive type wpns, such as heavy battle tanks, APC's, Hvy Arty, attack helo's. It's this type of thinking that puts soldiers lives at risk. Canadians have to decide what is it they want ? I think Argus got it right when he alluded to most Canadians would perfer our military dress in pink and handing out flowers at the airport. They need to be educated that peace only comes from the use of force, and the willingness to use force to achieve peace. It does not come from handing out teddy bears and chocolate bars.

What is driving the People of Canada to change thier minds about Afganistan? is it money, death of soldiers, the plan, what ? I can see why the Liberals are flip flopping, the polls are out, and they have based most of thier decissions on "what the polls say"....That and no leadership. liberals And why the is the NDP, now pushing for a withdrawal from Afgan, only to start over in Darfar, Can an NDPer explain to me the reasoning behind it ? what makes Darfar a better option ? What scares the NDP about Afgan ? NDP I have several of my young soldiers ask me Does'nt the rest of Canada know what we are accomplishing over here in Afgan ? And why do we put all this effort and sacrifice into a mission only to have the government change thier minds before the job is completed? And do they know that the Darfur mission will be just as dangerous if not more ?