Army Guy

Really.... maybe i missed it but where is the topic on our soldiers rights again...All of 137 pages of it...It would seem that certain posters on this forum are more concerned with a Terrorist recieving his full rights and benifits than the rights of true Canadian citizens who have decided to defend this nation...In fact some have even championed he recieve a huge settlement because of what he endured during is capture, and that our government was slow to react...Few have already questioned the fact on how our government treats it's vets, but it is a dead topic, no one is interested it's not as sexy as a terroist getting his rights.... So excuse me if the vioces in my head seem imaginary to you, but then again perhaps you have nothing invested in this topic....perhaps you don't know of anyone that has served there, died there, or came back dismembered, sure your concerned that every Canadian gets what is due them in regards to right ..i get that fact..I support that fact... but this is not your typical case is it.... But this is not the first time this type of action has been made public, there are Canadians all over the world being held captive, none of them have 137 pages worth of discussion do they ?....held in much worse conditions than little omar, none of them are going to get a big pay out are they....So from were i stand and the others that served in Afghan it looks like you support Omar and his case....To us this is more than following laws, this is about harboring an enemy...DO you think that rights trump that,regardless of what they have done...because Omar is not the only Canadain fighting in Afghanistan, he just so happens to be the only one caught, or made known. Ya it does suck, and perhaps one day you can tell me just how much....Today i'm talking to you, because your one of millions our civilian leadership listens to...but your not listening, your concerned that one Canadian was wronged by our government...A canadian that went to war for another nation, joined a terrorist organization, engaged in terrorist activities, and murdered a US soldier... Who has been locked up for most of his life, I have one question for you, what do you think he is going to do when we let him out....is he going to thank you guys for the support you gave him....and what support will you give him when he decides to take his anger out on the Average Canadian..what do we tell the victims families....We did what was right we protected his rights, that trumps everything ..sorry for your loses..That would be the right thing to do, but at what cost do we pay to do the right thing is my question.

Try again, if a soldier kills civilains intentionally it is murder, and if a civilian intentionally kills a soldier it is murder....The only time it cancels each other out is if a soldier kills another soldier.

It's a good thing it's not up to you, funney how we all stand up and cheer for Omar because his rights were infringed upon, rights given to him because he was born on Canadian soil..rights that he spits on and wants to destroy..not just him but his entire family...they don't seem to mind the welfare their handed every month though, or our medi care..no they seem to like that.......we seem to care more about them than we do our soldiers... Own soldiers lived in far worse conditions than any of these dirt bags had to languish in..3 meals a day, climate controled rooms, access to TV , religous time, etc etc etc...while our guys lived in the dirt, got eatten alive by ticks,fleas,slept with scorpions, snakes, camel spiders, we had a choice drink the water or bath we opted to shave with a 1/3 of our water, for months on end, until rashes became to sore you could barely walk...try and cope with having the squits in 60 degree heat and no time to stop and relieve your self, having to shit yourself because it was not safe to stop....carried over 160 lbs in heat approaching some days 60 degrees celuis....But you know all this , it's what i volunteered for right...i know i get it all the time STF up...quit complaining...But hey.... keep crying for your man Omar....His rights are more important than mine, or any soldiers, even yours...I mean we were born here, grew up here, we are not terrorists, we picked our nation to serve in, and not some terrorist organization half way around the world... And we right it off as part of the job, we knew what we were getting into....these soldiers come back to be paid off with chump change...and we wave it off again ... , in the Canadian military, as i'm not familar with US forces policy, but upon death each serving Married Military member is entitled to 250,000, if you are deemed single the member gets ) benifits from the VAC. each soldier is encouraged to take out a military insurence plan which can pay out up to 660 K providing the soldier has the ins as it is not manatory. The basic pkg for death is a free funeral, with basic casket and head stone. Note there is NO workmans comp for any military member ever... Getting compensation from VAC is a very complicated process, and requires the assistance of a lawyer, as an example a friend of mine involved in a IED explosion lost hearing in both ears, and lost the full use of his right arm recieved 1800.00 dollars and was forced to retire....while another indiv recieved 160 K for PTSD...I'm sure you can find more examples on goggle... As for Omar reciving any cash to flaunt around during his new found freedom it is a myth, Omar has an outstanding lawsuit file by his victim's wife and one of soldiers wounded during the same fight , the US courts have awarded a 120 Mil settlement to them... Unless the Canadian government settles for more than that i think Omar, will have to settle for the welfare check as the rest of his family... My link My link My link

The Government of Canada cannot intervene in the judicial affairs of a sovereign country, nor can it seek preferential treatment or try to exempt Canadian citizens from the due process of local law," wrote spokesperson Ann Matejicka. My link My link

So your familar with inter national law, the genva convention, not to mention Canadian law....your also familar with the fact he is a terrorist...and yet you just said there is nothing wrong any of his actions...it is to be expected....And yet he was a Canadian Citizen WTF is he doing carrying out terrorist activies in someone elses war, why was he not giovwen over to the afghan government for his crimes ? ....and now there is talk of him being compensated for Canada not reacting fast enough to rescue him...he was only a boy of 15 , "insert tears here" real big frigging tears to.... Well here is something that can be expected, fly a couple of planes into US buildings on US soil and you can expect more than a orange jump suit, in Cuba, you can expect not only the US fighting machine to gear up to rape your ass, but NATO's as well. But here in Canada thats not how things work , get caught in a foreign land doing terrorist acts and we pay you for it.....look after your family, support them , Shit no wonder they don't want to leave, we treat them better than the taliban does....To Bad Canadians can't treat their own as well....

g_bambino : That was not what they were in the area for, you should re read the entire mission statement again, hours before an american column came under indirect and direct fire. they were conducting sweeps of the area, couple of nights before another American column had hit serveral IED's close to the villiage that was being searched. I'd like to see a source on the sat phone thing as you claim. If that was the case as you state they would have taken the complex by force, a planned assault to capture little mr Omar, that assault would have included air and possiable arty plan, and yet none was there, the plan would also included multi approach angles, and yet according to statements, they entire engagement orginated after 3 afghanis troops knocked on the front door...Anyone familar with assualt plans knows you don't knock on the front door...you blow it off the hinges, followed up by flash bangs, then enter from multi entry pionts....something that was not done...the assult team would have knwon exactly who they were looking for , ID by pictures, and yet no one even knew you Omar was until id'd later, the fact he spoke english was another surprise, one that saved his life...SF guys on scene thought he would prove to be an intel asset, so he gets med treatment....Nothing is left for chance it's well planned and well reheased, because murphies law is a bitch... Just to let you know, even when your knocking on someones you set up a cordone , ensuring that everything is watched, just incase things go south like in this case, so that is standard practice, if it's not then your dealing with amateurs...and these guys were SF... As for Omar being a terrorist thats already a fact, he has been convicted of such activity, Planting IED's or making IED's is a death sentence in Afghanistan, these guys are given pri to be hunted down and engaged...And yet this fact runs off the back of most Canadians who want to see him returned and given a win fall of money..... I guess i don't really blame them, they have no idea on what it is like to be blown up by an IED or wAITING TO GET BLOWN UP....what they do know is that most of our buried comrads came home in a casket due to IED's...during the height of the conflict, it was not if you were going to get blown up but where....everytime we went out someone got blown up....from little mines 20 LB anti tank mines, to having them stacked as high as 6 high....to IED's that contained 5 to 1000 lbs of explosives....YA you don't need that much to take down a sky scrapper...craters in the road some 20 ft deep and 60 ft across....massive diesel engines thrown as far as 1000 meters...thats from an armoured veh.... Blasts so loud your hearing does not recover for a full week, you bleed from the eyes and hears, thats 500 meters away...your comrads well apart form the veh that was over the blast site ceased to exist,,,we scoured the ground for hours so we could pick up enough human body parts to be declared a body, you need 20 LBs....we were lucky to find fingers... the crew of the next veh just up from the blast 100 meters were in perfect condition, dead , killed by the over preasure, that was until we went to touch them for vitals....imigine seeing one of your comrads turn to jello in front of you...ceasing to look even like a human, but instead a sack of jello.... Omar took part in planting these devices, not the ones that killed so many of my comrads but none the less, he was a bomber...ones that did not target just soldiers but anyone unfortunit to set of the device...really nice guys , and we want to bring one of them home , not only to fondle and reap heaps of money on....but so we can show the world we are champions of human rights, even though our faces are full of spit and shit that these pukes have thrown there....turn the other cheek or so the saying goes....I don't care how old he was or is, he will never wash off the blood he has on his hands...he is a terrorist and will always be a terrorist...

I don't buy that for one minute, we have already established the fact that AL Quada was part of the Talibans military forces, prior to the war, just because that during the short conflict between the coalition and taliban forces the regime had changed does not change the fact that AL Quada and omar merry gang get a free pass. As they were already part of that group before the conflict... My link Piont to not Germany, and Japan also had regime changes, and yet it did not effect the outcome of those courts and those charges that were laid.. the last man to be charged in Canada was Kanao Inouye after he served in the japanese military during WWII So it has been done before, After a regime change.

Are you sugesting there is no standard, why are the X Warsaw Pact Nations that have asked to join NATO seeking to purchase western aircraft, wpns, etc...is it because our stuff is cooler, or is it they are asked to conform to NATO standards, and while there may not be a single type of aircraft out there, NATO does operate many different types each having it's own niche or speciality....and if you broke them down, there is 2 orgins these aircraft are built the US and Europe, even that they share the same standards for certain equipment inside them. Suggesting there is no common standard is wrong...And the NATO Gen was wrong to suggest it, when NATO partners have been sharing these standards for years, Small arms ammo, tank ammo, arty ammo, aircraft munitions, sat comms , radio comms, fuels, oils etc etc.... As far as Canada goes we take that one step further and need to be inter operable with the US. as they are our main and prime defensive agreements partner. My link The emergence of new threats and measures taken by NATO to adapt its capabilities accordingly have led to changes in operational requirements for armed forces. These changes have signifi cantly enhanced the importance of interoperability with respect to material, doctrine, tactics, training, communication, and many other areas in which interoperability is a major factor for military forces and the systems that support them. The objective of standardization is to achieve the required critical level of interoperability with regard to all these aspects. Standardization makes a vital contribution to the combined operational effectiveness of the military forces of the Alliance and promotes opportunities for the better use of economic resources. Extensive efforts are made to improve cooperation and to eliminate duplication in the research, development, production, procurement and logistic support of defence systems, primarily through the promulgation of NATO Standardization Agreements, known as STANAGs. Implementation of STANAGs helps nations to achieve the required levels of interoperability and to better accomplish their common strategic, operational and tactical tasks, to understand and execute command procedures, and to employ techniques, material and equipment more effi ciently. http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://www.nato.int/docu/interoperability/interoperability.pdf&sa=U&ei=ymimT4-XH4TO9QSyyZHaAw&ved=0CBIQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEwCW3ajlK5clfes1hCK0SglP66eQ http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://www.thebolingroup.com/procurementpower/presentations/Moreno_JuanA.pdf&sa=U&ei=ymimT4-XH4TO9QSyyZHaAw&ved=0CCkQFjAH&usg=AFQjCNHpsZHNWLVRAipbvKeyWxwreeIrHA

How so ?

Army Guy, on 05 May 2012 - 05:10 AM, said: So you agree that the Taliban were the ruling force in power during the time of the conflict right... Do you agree that Al Queda is an armed group of people.. Al quada is an armed group of people as laid out by the same difinations that the UN, Inter national law, and the conventions use. funney how the others are using these same difinations to painfully extended their argument. when it is clearly spelled out.... the answer to your question is NO, they are the Armed forces of our nation. Quote Then really all one has to do is tie both together during the invasion, which is clearly laid out in what ever ref you use. i used wiki links. link Not just training it, but commanding it, in battle there is a difference. Al Qaeda was not just allieds but intergrated into their defense forces.... Omar is been branded a terrorist, and therefore does not enjoy the same convention coverage, and when you boil it down there are only a few caveats he is not entitled to...he is covered by a most of the conventions. as is everyone. Like i said this is common info and can be found any where other than wiki....but it does explain what my piont was, which clearly states Omar can be tried for treason, as his family for terrorist charges.

So you agree that the Taliban were the ruling force in power during the time of the conflict right... Do you agree that Al Queda is an armed group of people.. Then really all one has to do is tie both together during the invasion, which is clearly laid out in what ever ref you use. i used wiki links. link link

This is Bullshit, read the statements again, 3 Afghanis soldiers were going door to door "knocking on doors" in a war zone don't need an invitation , warrent, or any other peace nik shit....your proven Al Qaeda terrorist responded to the knock with a hail of bullets killing all 3 Aghanis soldiers opening the engagement, which ended with everyone dead and the capture of Omar... He was'nt with them, give me a break, he was part of a Al-Qaeda bomb factory, with the vidios to prove it...don't kid yourself Al Qaeda was a very real part of the taliban regime, and her armed forces... Your claim that he was not with the grouop of Al quada is laughable at best, who was he with then ...US forces had already indentified the group he was with, but please tell us.. .....and they were not part of the boy scout organization you suggest, in fact when does the boy scouts plant IED to be used on NATO forces, If you have proof of that lets see it. And perhaps answer this question why is it the others that were with him have links back to Al quada, this is rich, lets see his parents , play a huge role in AQ, he is trained by the AQ, he is put under protectorite by AQ members....the pers he was with and were killed were AQ...and you doubt he was AQ....how did you come up with that ?

Once again "A STATE OF WAR does not need to exist for the Cnadian Amred forces to engage our enemies...your repeating it does not make it true...in fact you have already stated there was nop war, OK but our armed forces were there kicking someone ass....what are the odds our liberal government broke any laws in sending us there...think about it...

Where in that entire link does it say the crimes must be done and completed in Canada. Maybe you should research the last man Canada charged for treason, find out were that crime took place, I'll give you a hint, it was Japan , my next question is japan in any form considered part of Canada....there fore he does not walk, and it is an option. Keep reading it also includes our allieds any action again'st them is an action again'st us....but if you don't like the treason angle , read the laws on terrorism...one way or the other he can be charged. Why is this so complicated it is spelled out in black and white in the links i provided...all you have to do is read it...

Under s46 of the Criminal Code, a person commits "high treason" who a) kills, attempts to kill, wounds, imprisons, or restrains the sovereign, wages war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto, or c) assists an enemy at war with Canada or any armed force against whom Canadian forces are engaged in hostilities, even if no state of war exists My link The punishment for high treason is life imprisonment, without parole eligibility for 25 years. A person commits "treason" who a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province, discloses, without lawful authority, military or scientific material to agents of a foreign state, if he or she knows or should know that the material may be used to impair Canada's safety or defence, or c) engages in certain listed conspiracies or attempted offences. The punishment for treason is life imprisonment; normal parole rules apply. Canadian citizens and persons owing allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada who commit acts of high treason or treason are punishable under Canadian criminal law even if the acts were performed outside Canada. The Criminal Code also penalizes such acts as alarming the sovereign, assisting an alien enemy to leave Canada, failing to make reasonable efforts to prevent the commission of high treason, intimidating Parliament or a legislature, sabotage, incitement to mutiny and sedition. Or you can try this link for Canadian laws on terrorism. My link These are just some of the Canadian laws that were broken.

Does it say anything about a declaration of war in my statement, does the laws again'st treason say anything about a declaration having to be stated first...

War does not have to be declared, and Canadian law is very clear on this IT IS AGAIN"ST THE LAW TO ENGAGE IN ANY COMBAT ACTIVITIES EITHER DIRCECTLY OR IN SUPPORT OF THE ENEMY IN WHICH OUR FORCES OR OUR ALLIEDS ARE ENGAGED....you can check on the treason laws to start, however there are some more out there...

It was you that brought it up, as a complaint, and yet if you understand it then why bring it up if it was the norm, The Afghan government has since changed those rules NATO can not make night calls any more unless authorized by the Afghan government. You quote ALOT, not true, when compared to the total population it is not alot, but a few...The average Afghan wants to live in peace, raise their families, and provide for them....thats it they would perfer we did that for them, however after 30 years of war, they would be ready to follow anyone that could bring these simple items to the table... Not true for the most part there was 3 groups involved in the begining, Northern alliance which was assisted by NATO, NATO and then the Taliban....for the most part the people were to scared to get involved, and although i won't say there was no civilians involved, they did not play a big role in the intial fight...Now how you discribe the northern alliance is on you, but they were made up of many warlords and they did not all agree, but thats on par for Afghan...it still does not change the fact they or most wore the same uniforms, carried armes openly and claimed to be northern alliance. moral rights have no bearing on the law, those laws are meant to protect the majority of people, hey you want to pick up arms bring the fight to the bad guys, then go for it, however remember it is those that win that judge the others.

Eyeball your missing the piont, there are many tupes of combatants, and many typers of conflicts...war does not need to be declared see our last 3 or 4 deployments..., i'm sure they have all the legal beagal stuff looked after...Liberals are pretty good at covering there ass. Your right but not in this case. I'm not sure why she has not been charged with anything , but i will agree with you her kick her ass out.... Not sure what your getting at plse explain. Eyeball they are not my legal definations, but those of the genva convention and inter national law and our own law, they are all available on goggle if you wish to read them...so i don't have to continue spewing them out.... Look if your asking me if i'm a big fan of Omar and his merry gang no i'm not, i have absolutely no time for any of them. In fact spent many tours hunting them down to kill them....i don't care if he's Canadian, Russian, African, black, purple with warts on his dick ... they are part of an organization that maims and kills for fun, they use terror to get their message out or to make a piont....they stand for everything that is again'st every moral or Canadian value every taught me, As a Canadian soldier they stand for everything we stand again'st. You don't have to agree, in fact that is your right, garenteed by those same soldiers....Now some will say it is all of our jobs to ensure ALL Canadians right are protected...here is were we disagree, THE RIGHTS OF THE MANY WILL ALWAYS OUT WIEGH THE RIGHTS OF THE FEW....Omar and his entire family are taking advantage of your good will and using that card "we are Canadians please protect us"...and yet have no problem in acting again'st our best interests or laws... I've seen these guys in action up close and personal, and have said or explained this many times, and yet words can not discribe the pain , the smells, the sorrow, the anguish , that their own people suffered at their hands, the cutting off of a tiny little girls hands, the skinning alive of an old man, is just some of the mild ones, and yet we as Canadians can not stand up and say this is wrong...we need to do something. And if that makes you ashamed of being a Canadian then sure, sit down in front of your computer, enjoying your pizza,and say screw them...I on the other hand have spent over 2 years of my life, my families life , my sons and daughters lifes serving my country here in Afghanistan trying to make a small difference...what have you done...

It means everything because the victor always gets his way in courts, you could find yourself getting a lenthy prison sentence...or shot depending on the victor...Irregulars really even irregulars are subject to the genva convention...as for the National Army has always got a massive recruitment program going on in the time of need. Did you even read up on any of this, do some research, Afghan freedom fighters did in fact have a distinctive uniform or arm bands,clear chain of command , carried arms openly.... AS did the resistance fighters in most of europe...all wore arm bands and carried arms openly...check out what the convention says then tell me all these resistance fighters did not comply, anyone else is classified as an insurgent, with very little rights under the convention... Can't have it both ways bitch about NATO Pers searching homes at gun piont and they say you have the right to defend your country by hiding behind other inocent civilians.....the very people your supose to protect....Anyone picking up touching any wpns or military equipment and you become targets, and can be engaged at any time without warning...meaning if you are indentified , a soldier could shoot you while your out shopping with your family...drag your carcus out into the street to be load onto a army truck never to be seen again...because you got a hard on to play soldier...Sorry, it does not work that way.... This is not about you, it's about the bulk of the people your hiding behind, supporting you, all that stuff that goes into it...soldiers are going to be hunting you down like dogs, then putting a bullet between your eyes...trained soldiers that know how to hunt dogs down not some red necks from the back woods...soldiers with Arty, Attack helos, jets, bombers, shit some guy in a sea can 3000 kms away is just going to press a button and you and your merry gang will go up in flames.... no not a good chance, they will be coming ,and not with regular force units the big dogs you here about in all the papers they deal with terrorist....

No we were not at War as it is tech laid out, in fact the entire Aghan conflict is not a war, no declaration was made, we are involved with the war on terroism, which is a play on words as once again considered an operation...WE Are in Combat in Afghanistan, fighting with US forces side by side...So the government can play with all the words they want, but out troops are fighting and dying, bringing the fight to the bad guys....I'd call it a war...

We invaded a country that assisted in hiding and protecting a know terrorist group who brought they're game to our shores...must be a hard concept to wrap your mind around....or are you one of those that turns the other cheek in a bar fight.... when you have an enemy that dress up like civilians , hides among them , yes we search homes and we even do it with guns, in the midddle of the night, if you got nothing to hide, then nothing to worry about....shoe might be on the other foot if the bad guys were threatening your family and we did nothing to do about it, did not search for them.... These laws are meant to protect civilians, pick up arms and engage the enemy you endanger other civilians, lets not forget, when our military engages a target we are not restricted by police rules ...meaning we can use what ever means nessicary to remove the threat, if it takes a F-18 loaded with 500 lb bombs then so be it, we take out a full city block...Some on this forum have yet to imigine what war is truely like...that we are there on some humanitarian mission handing out blankets and candy....Canada sent us over there to close with and destroy the enemy... Yes it is again'st the law as well as Genva conventions, inter national law, want to pick up arms and engage in your own private war....want to do that then form a partisan group, with clearly marked uniforms as stated in the genva convention with a clear cut chain of command....etc etc anything else and your a terrorist, with no convention to protect you....

It is a crime if your not part of the defending military, he was part of AL Qaida which is a terrorist organization, which was allowed to operate within Afghan's border, they had nothing to do with Afghan other than staying there, See genva convention....it is a war crime. It is also again'st Canadian law to become involved in a war again'st the Canadian militray or her allieds...So much much for that thought process.

Just so i'm right they don't trust the airforce, who wrote and spelled out so even a 5 year old could understand it....Now with no where to go in their argument they come up with 2 sets of books....really guys thats the best you got....Instyead of bitching about the project why don't they just try and reseach it, instead of jumping of the medias wagon....

Quote We can't negotiate with terrorist but we can let them go and forget what they have done, and be ashamed that we did not stand up and fight for him and his rights....in the middle of fighting for our own rights that he was trying to take away....i don't follow this logic...