Army Guy

No what I have been saying all along was this C295 purchase was one based of costs, and political choice...capabilities had nothing to do with it....My reference to costing was in responding to your and Smallc stating that the C-27J was double the price....which when we do the math that is not true...... Yes we do have a SAR aircraft being purchased , but it does not mean it was the better choice...

I guess Mongolia does not have a debating team does it, which would account for your fantastic debating technique, if that's what you call it........something like my dad can kick your dads ass anytime na na na....."come on" bring something to the table.....anything....

What you mean to say is this project has not been costed to 40 years, but rather only 33 years...which we have not seen so how can we simple say the C295W is cheaper....have you seen the costing...and comparison...do you have a source for that info.....I did not think so....So how can you make that claim..... Unit costs on their own do not tell the whole tale do they......we need to see the cost comparison for the full 33 years, and that info has not been released yet has it ? Also it does not include some of the NRC recommendations such as new SAR bases closer to the north, which was used to exclude the speed and range capabilities.....those are not going to be cheap....

Have you even gone to see what the contract consists of ....NO you have not....what you have done is simple discounted because it does not support your argument.....and even if it did not include all the SAR sensors we are looking for ....those will not double the costs as you were saying it would......You also discount or brush aside all that comes with the C-27J, such as common spares, with the C-130J which over the course of 33 years....would be in the hundreds of millions...when you take a look at warehouse space, training requirements for both pilots, crew and ground crew....to mention a few...

you might give a us a source and where you got your prices..... I used the prices according to the Australian contract..... even if you double the contract adjusted for inflation from 2012 you'd only be looking at 400 million more....than already spent....subtract the gains made from training, and logistics because they share a lot of the same parts as the C-130J and over 33 years that 400 million is not as bad as you make it out to be......

where in the hell did I say that.......what I did say is the NRC SOR debunks most of your argument.....DND did not write the specs to suit the C-27J as you lead us to believe.....that is a myth.....it also explains in its SOR that because they are no clear government policy in writing, DND could not use the excuse that those items were required to maintain SAR quality of service or was required for SAR duties.....as there is no governmental policy ...just one set out by DND....it is funny that while they did throw out most of DND want list , they did mange to keep the ramp requirement.....wow.....read the NRC SOR again they spell it out for you in black and white....they also state that DND might have to move SAR bases closer to northern population centers to maintain it's range, and time to delivery of services, due to the lowered standards....that is pretty danming....oh one more thing the cost of those new bases not in the contract....pitty and here I thought it was clear, sunny ways yes indeed....

Let see, $ 2.4 was the contract we signed on to was it not...........I just gave an example of Australia signing a contract for 1.4 bil for 10 C-27J.....you do the math.....the contracts are similar, with some exceptions....those exceptions are not major costs, or cost Bils... please explain it to me....and most of the sources I have checked do not list costing for the C298W, but rather the last version of C298....

SO what you are saying is the Cons purchased this new SAR aircraft.....? or has the Liberals taken what was left them and went the opposite direction.....

The evidence is clearly laid out for you if you read the NRC SOR, which I provided.........it states the reasons for re writing the specs, it does so by line item by line item.....Show me where it states as you have said it was DND writing the specs for the C-27J......which is not true....at all.... each standard is clearly defined....and when they changed them they stated why.......the main reason or reason that was used repeatedly was DND kept refering to Standards of SAR service...which were laided out, and written by DND, since DND does not write Government policy, all those requirements listed "to ensure this level of service is required " were denied....for no other reason other than DND wrote those specs.....That those specs are to high.... Yes your right ...unless we are talking F-35.....the contracts are almost the same while they may be off by a couple hundred thousand but they are close enough for comparison....

No i'm not getting your point......What was said is each aircraft is built to have a minimum safety standard.....some companies have said those are not good enough we want to surpass the minimum standard.....so each plane is not of the same safety standard....but each plane does meet the minimum standard big fuc*ing deal......unless you have proof that the C-295 meets or exceeds the same safety standard as the C-27J, what is your point.....all the other capabilities see the C-27J in front....with exception of one price.....

And I have said before, it is a good thing that any government has took this file and done something with it....But the liberals seen this as a political opportunity and seized it....they wanted nothing to do with the C-27J , because it already had a target marked on its back......The rewriting of DND specs had nothing to do with the C-27J, in fact I have already posted the reasons they changed the specs....nothing is mentioned about the C-27J.....it also states there was More than one aircraft that would have passed the specs....the C295 was not one of them..... They go as far as stating that DND's SAR policies and specs are not backed up by governmental policy, that that level of service does not have to be followed and is nul and void....there for all those conditions that are set by DND are also nul and void.....after reading the source I provided you still have no flashing lights going off in your head.....then your right.....and im wrong....our government will go to any length it has to go to get its way.....including rewriting SAR policy, and standards...now it won't go up, it will not surpass DND's standards because that would mean the C-295 would not be picked....it means the quality of SAR service is going to go down..... It also does not preclude the building of new SAR bases in the north, so range and speed requirements are not lost forever......which costs have not been included in any costing yet... One more point to mention Australia purchased 10 C-27 J for 1.4 Bil dollars in 2012.....lets assume we still wanted 16 the cost would be just over 2.6 is a rough estimate....Not the double the cost as you said....in fact pretty comparable ....

This for you squid because you can't be bother to read all the posts....this was in reponse to Eyeball....and his above comment...thanks for keeping up....

I'm not sure why we are talking safety , or what you are going on about......I have said clearly more than once.....Canada sets minimum safety standards for aircraft.....it does not mean that aircraft can not be built to higher standards....IN regards to safety....not sure what you gold toilet has to do with anything...but I see this as a distraction on your part because it seems like you did not know what your talking about.....

No it does not guarantee anything, but 90 % of time it does....most of the time better does mean it cost more.....

WTF are you talking about.....DND has no funding....taxpayers give their money to the government...the government then divides up the funding by dept.....hence DND annual Budget....which some of it is used for purchases.....like I said ALL government purchases over 25 K must go through PWSG......they buy, they decide, DND prays iot gets something close to what it wants..... But that is not so for all depts.... And lets not go there is only so much funding.....Liberals piss away 30 bil....that came out of who's ass exactly.....with plans for spending another 30 bil....not enough for SAR aircraft.. come on......

You mean they have passed a minimum standard , that there can be aircraft that are safer than others, built to a higher degree of detail.....

When an Inuit boy named Burton Winters became lost in a blizzard on the sea-ice off Labrador in January 2012, all three search-and-rescue planes in Atlantic Canada were — for mechanical reasons — unable to deploy to search for him. The 14-year-old died from hypothermia before a search-and-rescue helicopter was finally sent, more than two days after he went missing. http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/michael-byers-stewart-webb-passing-the-buck-on-search-and-rescue http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/a-year-after-tragedy-search-and-rescue-doubts-persist-1.1319865

SO what your saying is having a AWC does not make all the aircraft the same, what your saying is they meet the minimum standard.....and some aircraft are built beyond that, or have much more options included......don't have to be bigger to cost more....

Buts that the way you just made it sound.....was it not Shit happens.....money was the difference of life and death in this case was it not..... Why don't you check that little tid bit in goggle, it was not that long ago....in fact it has been used as an example in this very competition.....

Are you saying that both aircraft are built to the same specs, that one is not safer, or built better, or uses better materials....what you are saying is they are indentical , only difference is price.

Argus, look at the lengths they are will to go to prove their point.....DND SOR had nothing to do with writing it to the C-27J......look at the reasons NRC gave to say it was to restraining...... Shit they are even willing to say they are willing to lower the level of SAR service to make this happen, because the government has not specified or written a policy, and due to lack of policy DND wrote their own....hello, I guess you can't do that.....so the SOR does not have to live up to DND policy....there for those standards are void....

Should tell that, to that young boy that froze to death on the northern ice pack, when SAR could not get to him for 2 days after he froze ...because of lack of serviceable SAR air craft... I wonder if that was what the PM told his parents...shit happens, get over it.....or did he say we sorry our SAR aircraft are over 30 years old, we should have purchased new ones 14 years ago....But we are retards....

this is bullshit.....everything is not made to the same standard, and as with anything you get what you pay for......buy a $20 life jacket, that will keep you afloat for 1 hour....or $400 for one that will never sink....which one do you buy for you family....both are life jackets , both do the same job, any one will do, when it comes down to safety inspection....hell take 2 of the good ones and a cheap one for the mother in law.... When it comes to safety, one has to spend a little more.....we do that when it comes to school buses, public transport etc...we demand it meets or exceeds a certain level of safety....regardless of cost.....one exception....the Canadian public does not get it's titties in a knot when it comes down to which brand of school bus is being purchased, nor does the Government make that choice for political reasons....That is reserved for the Military...cause them bastards can't be trusted....don't know why....just don't trust them shifty eyed some bitches.....

DID they really doctor the specs....or did NRC doctor the specs..... http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs/fixed-wing-search-rescue-aircraft-2010.page HMM someone said something about specs....who was that.....The new SAR aircraft was to be able to provide Canadians with an equal service that is provided today....more on this later..... We can not compare them to aircraft already existing....because new aircraft should be able to outperform 30 year old aircraft one would assume....NO not the case....they need to instead reflect on the new SAR capabilities sought by the government of Canada in terms of SAR services to Canadians.......and NOT SAR services that are currently provided by DND.....But they do not lay all that out do they..... SO range of the aircraft is no longer important, neither is speed or response time.....SAR no longer has to rush....good to know.....the others are not tough requirements are they...... NRC even went father than that they added their own requirements.....that DND did not mention or listed as a lower priority.....for you conservatives out there ....that's because DND just flies them....what do they know about what to ask for, and in what priority they might need it in...... Oh forgot.......this is what NRC says....A capability-based rather than platform-centric SOR would allow for more flexibility in developing proposed solutions. It is concluded that the SOR is over-constrained to the extent that very few compliant solutions are possible......it does not say that the requirements are written for the C-27J....they do mention that very few aircraft rate as contenders.....so there was more than one....."well fick me" SO before DND wrote the Specs.....there was no Government policy on what SAR was to provide to Canadians....so in absence of policy DND made one...stupid bastards.....what do they know.....Now our government is saying WOW, we didn't have a policy, how dare those DND guys write their own....lets make a new one....so we don't look bad.... it does not need to be to this level.....WHY not.....if the old planes are 30 years old and doing the job to DND standards, why can't a new aircraft do the same thing......Because very few aircraft can.....so we have to lower the standards.....so we can buy the cheaper aircraft....save money, save political faces, make it look like we are good and DND bad.....

What the hell did you expect them to say.....who does DND work for again....the battle is over, the contract announced , DND lost again it is time to smile and eat shit once again......but then again you don't see that...... DND wrote the specs, for what they wanted in their next aircraft.....PWSG said it was not broad enough...it favored one aircraft....meaning the C295 according to the airforce was not up to the cut.....not happy with that they had the specs rewritten by another dept that knows what about SAR again....to loosen the specs....and it was not decided on specs anyways, it was price.....and political reasons...