Army Guy

Jacee: Ya lets take a look at that shall we, i remember getting on the plane ROTO 1 the second tour over, the place was lined with thousands of canadians waving little flags, the streets were lined with people shouting and screaming...Kick some ass, amoung other things.... Canada as a majority was all for the mission....later on it would stop being a Canadian mission with the support of the people but rather a Canadian Armed forces mission, with nothing to do with the people....and as part and parcel of that we had to pay for everything we needed for that mission in blood....everything, getting light jeeps replaced, getting helos, getting armed helo escorts...we paid for all that in our blood....all that changed how our soldiers seen our own nations people and their support..during that time we learned to adapt and over come most obsticles placed in our way... Shit for a time we even took over the diplomatic mission Ya not bad for a bunch of army guys we learned to borrow and steal off our allieds for equipment we desparately needed....developing deep bonds with our allieds so in the end we felt we had to betray them in order to follow our governments wishes to return home with the mission unfinished....instead stuck in a non combat role with all the rest of the non combat wieney nations.... So yes things have changed for our soldiers and we do or atleast most of us have a bad taste in our mouths in ref the Afghan mission... Do you really believe that crap, that this is about pipe lines and whats the other one bils in minerals, drugs ....since we've been there, there has not been one section of pipe laid...can you imigine what security that would take to keep the insurgents off it...Minerals buried deep in the ground, i doubt any mining company has even been to Afghanistan, without getting shot, or blown up....the drug trade ...while the major drug cartels are making bils off Afghan poppy market the average Afghan farmer is barely making enough to feed his family.... but then again all wars are for the corp america ....well most this one does not come close except the arms companies....there is nothing in Afghan except rock and dust... As a soldier we have countless hours on culture awareness, history behind Aghanistan, it's people it's wars, the region....then we get 6 to 7 months of being dipped right into the middle of Afghan, living with the poeple talking to them on a daily bases...understanding their problems because we are immersed in them...working with them to fix them....as for knowing what and how our government works we have access to everything the avg Canadian does, from TV direct feed, to intra net.... Canadian soldiers have first hand info when it comes to Afghan infact what the media reports most of the time we laugh and joke on how bad they screw that up....there has been very few reporters that even wnet outside the wire and seen what we did....We ask questions all the time and becasue we are soldiers we ask them in short and blunt terms, remember all those government types, just dieing to get over and see the boys....ya well they've been held over the coals a few times... We are soldiers, but we are Canadian soldiers and citizens not robots....these missions are 100% volunteer, and trust me soldiers know what they are getting into... Our every move has been under the micro scope since this mission has started, and we were judged the entire way...some examples have already been posted...here is my favorite my second tour, i'm eating supper watching the news and on comes the Prisoner abuse scandle remember that one....some Univeristy proff in Ottawa has gotten some evidence from an inmate in Afghan that he has and was abused by Canadian soldiers and once the story is broke he gets dozens of these letters....right away DND says it will investage...it sends out a flash message any and all prisoners are to be treated like gold, no bruises no nothing...lets forget we are at war, not some tues night cop show...we deal with fanitics not some drug induced robber as protrayed on TV...But in the media we are already tried and convicted...in fact this went on for months and months....an independent investagation found that the orginal prisoner wasn't even taken by Canadian soldiers....and poff the media shut up , it did not retract anything it just moved on, mean while joe blow Canadian thinks his nations soldiers are thugs....no we were judged and we had to justify everything.... My feelings, do you really care ...as long as i'm good to go the next time right....atleast that is what the doc said when we all interviewed for the next mission... Making war on child soldiers is more common than you think....to the piont it is very common,All those laws and agreements everyone keeps bringing up well there for you, back in Canada home safe and sound...for us soldiers over there it's reality, it's war, it's their war with no rules, except on our side...this is were i draw my opinions from from reality, as it happens every day in Afghan...not from a chair in a living room...And as far as you sending me over there, that stopped along time ago, when the support for the mission died and we started paying for what we needed with our blood...No we stuck up our hands and said pick me, becuase we believed in the mission, and the Afghan people. Do i hate child soldiers or dislike them....No, i do hate what they have forced me to do, i dispise those that have turned these kids into monsters, and stripped their inocence...But once i get kitted up and take my turn outside the wire, my head is screwed on tight, and i will do what it takes to bring the men under my charge back home to their loved ones...

Jacee: Then sort me out, which facts and which laws and i'm twisting and contorting... And as for anger, i will admit that i do hold Omar and his merry band of relatives in contempt for good reason, currently he holds our government hostage until Omar agrees not to go forward with court actions in regards to our government not acting on his behalf in a timily matter...and he's right, our government should have done something quicker, but with that in mind it should have shown the world that we take this terrorist thing serious and made an example of him in our courts... His family has shown nothing but contempt for this country, and are quit open about their feelings, and yet they have no problem acceptin our health care, our welfare, and our pay outs for info....which i might add is more than we are doing for our widows and families of our own Nations fallen...not to mention those who have been wounded so badly they can no long support their families, for them we gave a small payout and said thank you for your service , good luck in the future....just 2 reasons , but wait there is more... This entire UN child soldier thing does nothing to stop children from serving on the battle field...yes it gives us another law, but ask your self how many low lifes have actually been brought forwarded and charged and sentenced under this new law...Do you really think that a group or nation not party to the conventions really care about one more law they have broken....but the law is not for their bennifit it is so we can make ourselfs feel good....It does nothing to keep children off the battle field.. What keeps children off the battle field is knowing there is legal consquences for their actions...does that make me some hard ass, with a black heart perhaps, but then again i'm sure that most Canadians have not been faced with the moral problem of engaging children on the field of battle either...And in the end that is what everyone wants correct to keep children off the battle field.... I'm not holding Omar responsiable for all the child soldiers problems in Afghan, just want a fair and just solution to his problems. a 40 year sentence is a forty year sentence...not 8...during that time he should get the help he needs mentally and physically.... No i've worked through my issues and i've learned to live with my demons...and my anger as you put it is not focused on the Khadrs but rather at the Taliban and AQ and other terrorist groups how they have commited crimes that would rival the Nazi's in some cases...and the Khadrs were part of an organization that was an active part of all that, and no one can say with certainity that they are still not part of that...

Yes to Obey your parents but not to become robots... Is that my fault, nope, is it our governments fault, nope....who's fault is it...moms, dads...then why are we paying for it...why is our balls on the table about to get smashed.... Thats the problem nobody wanted to stand up and put thier feet down....Sorry but we have stripped your sons of their citizenship, pack your bags MOM were shipping you back to your Muslim roots, arrangements are made your sons are now Jordian citizens maybe Arab spring has already come there good luck ...I thought citizenship was a priviliage not a right...and it can be taken away as fast as it is granted...How many Canadians want these people to stand for Canmadians ....don't shit me and tell me we don't have a chioce...damn right we do, it's done everyday... As for the Flag. thanks Guyser for the reply, as i was not thinking all that polictically correct at the moment.

A foreign military really , which one is it, is he a Canadian citizen or not, which laws is he to obey...so to put this into perspective he is a Canadian national who is living in Afghanistan....how many laws and conventions has he already broken...so he's a merc so to speak....fighting in Afghanistan again'st Afghanistan governmental forces...once again how many laws has that broken....the only reason we did not ship his ass back to afghanistan to face trail is his worth in intel....or this guy be hanging a long time ago....15 or not...Ya in Afghanistan you don't wait long for your trial there , in less time it takes to warm your seat your out back digging a hole ... Next these foreign military guys as you call them showed up to the door with the National Army at the time because they had just had fighting that was going ongoing in the area...they were searching for persons who were involved in those scrimishes , when the Afghan army pers knocked on the door "They" Omars buddies opened fire through the door, then opened the door to finsh them off, killing 3 Afghan army pers....ya nice little boy you got there...once game on was called serveral air strikes later...a NATO ground strike took place and poor Omar ends up with a couple holes in his back....he talks english, Spec ops want him evaced as he may contain intel...good call, if he had not spoken he would have been ended well before the medical attention got to him....

Almost correct, him being an insurgent by defination is layed out within Inter national , Canadian Law, it is also some what layed out in the UN conventions, and signed by over 80 coutires ,not all of them western....In it's defination once a group is labeled a terrorist organization it will remain so until it is changed by the UN ie PLO...if your are part of that organization you are an insurgent forever until it is changed by the UN, or in inter national and in our case Canadian laws...So it does not matter whom or where he attacks he is a terrorist, and will not be afforded all the rights and protections of the conventions....in Omars case he is linked to the AQ which will not be changing it's status anytime soon...they are a terrorist organization plain and simple... He is not a child soldier because he has already been label and there fore does not fit into that group of being a child soldier...which to qualify you need to first fit into a soldiers catogory...wear a uniform or clearly distingtive markings, bear arms openly , have a clear chain of command, it's really that easy...as a member he did none of these, with the exception of bear arms openily when it was convient for them to do so...as soon as NATO soldiers arrive they drop there wpns and fade into the crowds....as he had no uniform or clear markings...so he is not a soldier...because of AQ operating proceedures they constantly use terror as a wpn of chioce hence why he is a terrorist...or insurgent if you want.

Your right, he was a complete moron before the age 8 he did not know the basics of right and wrong, he had no concept of the basic values most children are taught....he was free of all that, a blank slate....So he had nothing to compare to.... And yet Canadian kids , most kids through out the world know harming another child is bad, killing another child is bad, why is that...how do they get these basic building blocks...Your saying he never inter acted with others, never asked the questions kids do...the WHY, HOW, WHAT, ETC....that he was shelter from all that instead he was forced feed kill infidels, kill them all... Your right again no independent thought at age 15, none at all, a complete zombie incapable of any thought process...he was a machine...he could feed himself, pick up a wpn, he could kill, make IED's but outsiude of that nothing....thats what you want me to believe.

Thats not what i'm saying at all, however not everone falls into that catagory, in Omars case he is an insurgent (which is spelled out in inter national law, Canadian law and with the conventions of the UN.) which does not have all the rights under the laws of war or the convention...meaning he also does not have all the rights for being a child soldier.... Just to make this clear those rights i'm talking about are very few, everyone is still entitled to be treated fairly and with diginity etc etc ....and yet These same rights we are talking about mean squat on the battle field, as far as that is concerned they or anyone that has picked up a wpns) are targets regardless of age and are to be engaged as per the ROE's.... they come in only after capture...we are dealing with extreme religious freaks that for most Capture is not an option...or honourable in their minds( everyone wants to have a crack at the 72 virgins)...the Battlefield is not some TV SWAT movie were soldiers try and talk the bad guys down...Once the shooting starts it's done when one side is standing over the other, everyone is either dead, or wounded so they can no longer fight...Thats is when these right take effect... Not at all everyone regardless of age is accountable for their actions...he is charged with murder because he was an insurgent not following the rules of war...these laws were put in place to protect unarmed Civilians in armed conflict, think about the conasquences of anyone picking up a wpn and joining the fight....once your in the fight your in forever, you can't get tired and drop the wpn and go home ...your in the game until your done, in a bag or captive....these insurgents place normal peaceful civilians lives indanger...hence the convention. Actually both his brother were asked to become bombers by both his parents, instead the opted to train as fighters rather than honor their family with their deaths for the cause which speaks volumes about his family, but also why our government has not done anything about that piont....Once they refused their family let them carry out their training on the fighting side of the house.... As far as the threat his father was killed in a gun fight, his other brother was cripled in the same gun fight...so the threat of being martyred ended there...and you have still not explained those 2 years that he was not with any family or relatives care , during his capture he was with an active IED cell...with no one watching over him he could have left for any where he wanted...just as the thousands of other kids do across that country every day.... This is not Canada where kids hang and live with mom and dad until they want to stick their feet in the pool of life...this is Afghan were as young as 11 they are considered men...thats right time to crawl out from under the dress and do what men do...hunt, and go to war....he was 15 when he was capturesd he already had 7 years worth of training and 4 or 5 years of combat under his belt...he could have done what any man does in Afghan find a wife and settled down...ya thats right in Afghan that shit is everyday shit...here in Canada we weep for the little boy...in Afghan he is a man ready to start his own family... Here is an experment you can run, do you play paint ball...vidio tape the entire match both sides of play...then have each player express in is own words what happened during the game....if you have 10 players then you'll have 10 different versions none will be the same....it's not that they are lying it is how they percieved the event... Now put that in a live Combat scene with the extra adrinaline flowing , and fear of death just to add a few emotions in there and what do you think is going to happen....The Army does not have CSI teams to investagate every battle...so there is no Court evidence as per say...all you have is 10 different versions which are all correct to a certain extent... So one of two things happened freindly fire but really we are talking about Spec ops guys freindly fire rarely happens...option 2 the last man standing hand to have thrown that grenade, and going by the statements (whos reliability we already talked about) they say Omar was the last man standing...which seems to fit...as one witiness statement said they seen him in a sitting postion moving around he fired 2 rounds hitting him in the back...how he got buried in rubble i can't say...but he was shot twice in the back... And yet we continue to bring that issue up... He was shot twice because he was an insurgent engaged with NATO forces...thats what the big boys do, remember all those rights mean jack shit until your captured, up until then if soldiers are following ROE's your a target regardless of age, don't hate the game hate the player.... He spent 8 years in Gitmo...and while i don't agree on certain aspects of his stay in gitmo, he got off alot better than any captive the Taliban or AQ took...he was also found guilty in a court of law...and sentenced to 40 years imprisonment...of which he has been ordered to serve 8 of those years...1/3 of his sentence..And a subject of many topics on this forum on light sentences and terms.. And while he may or may not have paid is dues, his family has not paid anything, nor to my knowledge is anything in the works...

I was talking about our Padre, a man of the cloth, not the medics...to prove a piont that everyone is armed, despite the convention.

Thats not what i'm trying to say, My piont is they should be held accountable for their actions....and comparing Omar to one of those African child soldiers is a leap don't you think...Infact i agree with the child soldier act we signed on for , however i do think that Omars case is not the same not even close, as he could have left that portion of his life in the dust years before...but chose to stay...

I did not say anything of the kind, i said they should be held acountable for their actions,. whats wrong with that, if one of these 15 years old had killed one of your family members would you be singing the same tune....would you think that 8 years served out of a 40 year sentence was enough, because he was only 15 .... He should be afforded no more attention than any other 15 year old in Canada that has been sentenced to do adult time for adult crimes.... Speaking of treating PTSD ever heard of this? http://www.thefix.co...on-lsd?page=all No it's the first time....PTSD is a very bad mental illiness if it helps then go for it....

You keep lowering the bar with every post..now it's under 8 years of age...right and wrong is taught at school, at home, by your peers, you name it....most of the conventions are pretty shit simple...made up of values from normal everyday life....how do our kids know whats right and wrong how come they don't kill each other in the school yard.... your shitting me right, what about in racist families,as one example ... shit Canada's history is full of examples look how we treated the Indians in our country....and deep down we knew it was'nt right... Obey your parents....tell them to go get a big stick so you can beat them with do they obey ? Why ? We do, everyone is held accountable.

No not me , that is what the UN child soldier program is saying try and keep up. Have you done any research on these African child soldiers, you might want to...their problems are not going to just fade away in the night because they're playing in the play ground...PTSD or severe cases of PTSD in a children are that much harder to over come,these are not kids that seen one person killed,or raped but rather hundreds, including thier parents family some have even done this killing themselfs...etc and while they have shown a major come back in these specialized schools in Africa...the violense is still there, and this is after years of re education by some of the top in thier field...these kids are never going to be kids again...never...they may look like kids but underneath they are what someone created them to be... Every mission....

Army Guy, I'm trying to make sense of your position. Children can be soldiers, if they follow the conventions and rules of war...even you can be a soldier...when you step outside the rules and conventions then you become an insurgent...anyone any age... Insurgents don't follow the rules of War, break those and yes you commit a crime.... He's 15 , considered a man in the AFghan culture , he already has 7 years training experience and atleast 3 or 4 in combat....he has been charged with some very seriuos crimes, murder, and attempted murder.... You tell me how many children in Canada have been charged with adult crimes and in Adult court...why does that make Omar any differnt and why were you not debating when they got charged or sentenced....

Forced into conflict , your shitting me right....his last 2 years of his life he was not even with a family member or relative...he could have walked away at any time...just as thousand do every day...He wanted to be there, or he's a very lazy escape artist....prove to all of us that like the child soldier from Africa he was forced to partake under threat of death....When has Omar told the courts or anyone that he was forced to fight....he looked scared when he recorded that little vidio of his YA that is one scared mother trucker....he wanted to be a terrorist, yes his parents forced him to take the training...but he wanted to be a terrorist and now we should be nice pat him on the head stop villifing him...he is what he is a terrorist...coming to live in a town near you...

Are you saying Omar is mentally unstable, because that is not what his defence team has been saying... Really justice, spent many hours driving the country side waiting for your veh to blow up, almost every convoy we went out on got blown up atleast once...i can't count how many people i know that have gone through that serveral times...all because little kids like your pal Omar liked planting IED's so ya i have a vested interest in Justice... serving 8 years out of a 40 year sentence is not justice it's a joke... 8 years old. he was 15, he had become a man in Afghan culture 4 years before that, he was a vetern soldier...in Afghan he was a terrorist, he worked for one of the most feared terrorist groups on the planet...and he had been doing it for years, according to since he was 8....Here in Canada he is consider a sweet young boy gone wrong...in Afghan he's a target, a high valued one at that, because he was a bomber...don't tell me i not going to shed any tears over a terroist...tell the widows... ask them what they think of young Omar. Let me ask you this would you have them over for supper, to share a meal with your family...would you leave them alone with your kids...the child soldiers of africa are broken they can't be fixed....Omar is not the same, he did what he did to impress his family...and when he gets out will be the tale of the tape...my money is he is going to want pay back and is waiting and watching....

It may sound like propaganda but it is not, Most medic's while on patrol will not wear Red crosses because it makes them a high valued target remember that at the time that the Taliban and other terrorist org did not sign or agree to follow the rules of war, to them it was a win to kill any high value target becuase of the terror it would create.. The only time i saw medical staff wear their stuff is when they were providing clinics in the villages. hence why they stopped wearing the red cross, they do however carry medical kits which do have the red cross on them, everyone going outside the wire has to be armed with a long barrel, and thinking back even our padre carried one, he never used it but he carried it...So one has to mule this over, a medic could wear all the red and white red crosses , and risk being a high valued target, and be covered under the convention...which is not followed if captured anyways and if the kill the medic just makes whom ever a war criminal if caught....not wear it , not covered , but your armed and can defend yourself....which one would you choose...

I think the government thought if we waited long enough it would blow away and be forgotten I think they should, but i highly doubt they will... In his case it is illegal to kill anyone as he was an insurgent, No it should not and was not be considered any different....Omar changed alot of things for alot of soldiers including Canadians, Soldier are not stupid and watch TV just like the rest of the world...Omar was an insurgent through and through, and the treatment and following he was developing pissed alot of people off.... Aghan is full of very young insurgents "coming of age in Afghan happens at age 11 he becomes a man...by then they have already handled wpns for a few years and know how to handle them...I've always asked why after Omar no other Canadian or US prisoners were taken, i mean there are hundreds over there...but young Omar was the last one to be splashed over the TV...like i said Omar changed things for everyone...

Omar Ahmed Khadr (Canadian) Khadr pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the law of war, attempted murder in violation of the law of war, conspiracy, providing material support for terrorism, and spying for killing a U.S. Army Special Forces Sergeant First Class, for attempting to kill other coalition forces, for building and laying landmines targeting coalition forces, and for spying on coalition forces. He was sentenced to 40 years confinement. Khadr’s pretrial agreement provides for a maximum sentence of 8 years’ confinement. The Convening Authority also agreed to support Khadr’s transfer to Canada to serve the remaining portion of his sentence once he serves an additional year in U.S. custody. I stand corrected he was not charged with killing a medic, but rather Murder of a US soldier.

Nither was the FLQ however the military was called in and martial law imposed. And this is were our laws are not very clear, however that being said there must be a legal piont that the UN invoked as they authorized the use of force, not only Again'st the Taliban and Afghan regime at the time but to all the terrorist organizations within it...Not sure on the number today but well over 15 different groups with different ties. The US used it's many defence pacts to invoke a coalition, such as NATO, etc...an attack on one is an attck on all.. I think this is covered on the War with Terror, and Canada must have agreed to the conditions set by the US/ UN because these terrorist were given high target values in Afghanistan...meaning they wanted them out of the picture quickly and Canadian forces did partake in most of these op's. The UN's rules are still being updated as are our's in regards to stateless targets or declarations....and are under the micro scope as the US attacks more of them in different countries without any agreements with the host countries...

well , Khadr is an insurgent, who does not have the same rules applied to a soldier which is protected under the convention, as they bear arms openily, and wear a uniform which separates them from the rest of the population...however that being said he is covered under almost all the conventions dealing with treatment and care... Aside from that he killed a Army medic who was performing his medical duties at the time....which i mentioned before therefore he is charged with murder.

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Look at the 6 day war for an example. History is full of them countries doing preemptive attacks becasue the other side was building up.... And while it may be illigal to make the first move, not many countries are going to sit on a war footing for long, some where some how something is going to spark and set the whole thing in flames...

I stand corrected there are 3 types of murder and all 3 are the same as a soldier or a civilian... there is no double standard, a soldier killing another soldier within Canadian laws, international laws, and the conventions is legal...take as many lifes as you want, government will provide the ammo, the other government the targets....It is murder when you fall outside the laws, for instance taking a Civilian life that is involved in the actions of the Battle field...that is murder...take a life of a soldier that is surrendering that is murder...which murder you pick... There is a big difference when a soldier intentionally fires upon a priest or medic carrying out his duties that is murder...as they are protected under the laws and conventions and you can be charged and tried ...be it in Canada, inter national court or a UN sanction court... If your going to play soldier then you got to know the rules, or find yourself in front of a court...

I think your getting confused to whom is AN ARMED FORCE,( AQ is clearly an ARMED FORCE with a clear chain of command and they are engaged with the CF)( 2 rednecks in Alberta could be an amred force.).....Besides A state of war does not need to exist it states so on the bottom line... AQ declared thier intentions by slamming into the towers, that action is a stae of war if done intentionally... Japan attacking pearl Harbour, Germany moving on Russia...Just the act of Building up of troops is an act of war, the act it self carried out in surpriase also an act of war. The US also that day announced the War on Terror....with the AQ having front row seats....

Those are still pretty tight numbers, As i'm sure there are alot more missions that are not accounted for ....Like they don't include training any army guys on things like army FAC course or the basic fast air course....Currently the army is renting Aircraft, A-4 from a Civilian company can't recall from where.