pinko
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First of all, let me clearly state that I do not think science and faith oppose one another, after all science is knowledge. It is how this knowledge is being used and handled by men that at times, it seems to "oppose" faith.
The lists pf prominent atheists in various field of science in the topic "REJOICE...," some of whom had deliberately set out to do their investigative works in order to disprove The Resurrection, or Jesus, not only discovered some truths that even made them convert. I ask, why would a prominent atheist scientist not just abandon his work and move on to something else? Why did he have to convert? He didn't have to shed his atheistic belief. He could just say there's a possibility and be an agnostic. But why convert? We're talking about prominent people of science here, with careers and egos....opting to not only to admit they're stumped with their findings....but swallow their words and losing face before all, by outright conversion to the very thing they set out to bust.
I can only conclude their findings were so compelling, beyond any doubt.
Then of course there are those scientists who did not convert, but changed their position. Those who became deist and agnostics.
Then there are those who refuses to call it God....and prefer instead to give it a fancier name like Intelligent Design or Prime Mover.
It must be tough for Dawkins. In a way I feel for him. In one interview somewhere which I posted (ATHEIST FUNDAMENTALIST PREACHER?), he somehow grudgingly seemed to have agreed to the possibility of God in an interview, if I'm not mistaken. With his popularity, his stature among atheists, with his genius, not to mention the $$$ from books and $$$ from speaking engagements and those debates with religious people....pride must've set in real hard. He said so much, and had taken himself to a point where he couldn't back down....not even to tone down.
You said in one of your post here that no one is saying science is their god. Of course they wouldn't admit to it....probably don't even realize it themselves. I don't mean all atheists. But the way they treat science. It's the attitude. The reaction. The avidness and fanaticism. I'm talking about atheists who pant for the discovery that will prove that there is indeed no God. It is like waiting for their "redemption" which will come from their "messiah" (scientist). In my view, there are those who have their own inner conflict that they try to push down. Thus they wait with bated breaths....hungry for anything that could brings them closer to that "redemption."
The discovery is their "redemption" from that conflict deep inside.
Betsy:
I have been following the discussion here and I am wondering if you will inform me whether you believe in the scientific method. Secondly may I please be advised when it is you believe the earth first originated. Do you believe in the virgin birth?
As you are aware from the posts here there is some scepticism from those with a functioning brain that the belief system you embrace is a rational one.
For the record I am an atheist.
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Sorry you feel that way. If it helps I am pulling for Green Bay.
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No worse than Blue Jays fans.
I don't follow baseball or basketball but I understand Toronto had many lean years in both sports. I remember watching baseball when Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris were in the limelight.
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That makes sense since you're not an American, that's why I question non-Americans who tell me how others feel about us. I can't imagine why Americans would be the topic of conversation when they meet foreigners in a foreign land. But I've traveled, so I hear first hand as a lot of people I meet want to talk me about America. In the countries that were mentioned, there are people, who upon learning that I'm an American, want to talk to me, so I always find that enjoyable; and of course I'm open to justifiable criticism, too.
You're right. I was frustrated when I wrote that. But I'm not overlooking the fact that the U.S. is the primary world power, but that doesn't make everything bad that happens our fault as nothing good that happens is to our credit. Likewise, it doesn't make every other nation out there morally superior and/or non-culpable. Seems as if too often, though, the simple, feel-good solution is to pile it all on us, which does nothing towards making anything better. Anywhere. For anyone.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.Definitely it is, but like my friend in China said, the situation isn't all that it appears to be. It's difficult to say where their government is ultimately headed, too. There are major changes taking place and it's yet to be seen where they will all lead. Anyway, he hopes to emigrate to Canada next summer so his family can have a better life. He wants his daughter, one of the most beautiful little girls I've ever seen, to have the advantages that we have in North America.
I hope you don't think I was cutting Canada down. That sure wasn't my intent. I think we've been very fortunate to be neighbors, which is why I'd hate to see anti-American sentiment sour the good relationship that we've enjoyed through the years. Maybe it is just certain members of this forum, but I'm feeling a level of animosity towards the U.S./Americans that I haven't felt in the past.
I don't know you very well but from what I have noticed you are able to articulate a well reasoned position on a variety of issues being discussed. I only used China as an example is it is, for better or for worse, coming of age. Certainly it has many difficulities ahead some of which is related to demographics and some of which has to do with regional pockets of wealth side by side with regions where people live in poverty with no social safety net.
I can say without any reservation I have no animosity towards you as an individual and that you are American is, in my view, not an issue.
JBG and I have posted in other forums and have been on the different side of a number of issues. At times we may have been atagonistic to each other however we have managed over the years to have a certain respect for each other. At least that is how I see it.
Those of you who live in states bordering Canada know that we have much in common. What is the difference between a young man or woman playing hockey on either side of that border other than nationality? Although there is a healthy rivalry I don't see much difference.
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Everybody,
Stop the personal attacks.
Discuss the subject of the thread or do not post at all.
Ch. A.
What is your position on this particular issue?
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• 'God vs. Science'
'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.'
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks
oneof his new students to stand.
'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.
'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely. '
'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'
'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes'
'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'
The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment.
'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'
'Yes sir, I would.'
'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that...'
'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could.
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does
he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed
to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'
The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says.
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time
to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er..yes,' the student says.
'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'
'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'
'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in
this world?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'
'Yes'
'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the
principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred?
Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'
The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'
'So who created them?'
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.
'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks
away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell
me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ,
son?'
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'
The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'
'No sir. I've never seen Him.'
'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not..'
'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that
matter?'
'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes'
'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'
'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has
with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His
own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '
' Yes.
'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have
lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white
heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't
go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we
would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or
object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat
is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero
(-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word
we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we
can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer.
'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'
'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it
isn't darkness?'
'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's
called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.
In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?'
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be
a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'
'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to
start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you
explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains.. 'You
argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity
and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that
death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of
life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your
students that they evolved from a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do.'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes
where the argument is going.. A very good semester, indeed.
'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and
cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'
The class is in uproar.. The student remains silent until the commotion
has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other
student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks
around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'
'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures,
sir?'
Now the room is silent.. The professor just stares at the student, his
face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man
answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'
'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with
life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'
Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it
Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in
The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil..'
To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does
not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of
God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that
comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no
light.'
The professor sat down.
If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when you
finished, mail to your friends and family with the title 'God vs. Science'
PS: The student was Albert Einstein.
Albert Einstein wrote a book titled 'God vs. Science' in 1921...
Taken from Living Truth Forum on Facebook.
What point are you trying to make?
By the way have you read The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins?
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I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Canada and its relationship with the U.S. You think you haven't benefited from our actions? Of course you have, which is why so many say if the U.S.'s economy goes down it will have a great affect Canada/the world. Canada being a close ally/huge trading partner with the U.S. has benefited from our economic status. Willingly. Happily. As y'all criticize the actions that got us where we are.
Furthermore, Canada has sold us what we need to do what we have done; Canada has been behind us in Iraq, albeit silently so you can carry on about how much better you are, and that's for Canada's benefit -- as we are criticized by the Canadians who are more than happy with their lifestyles as they benefit from that alliance.
So many posters here seem to think they know so much about everything, but all of their so-called knowledge boils down to "blame the U.S. for anything/everything bad." There's not even any discussion, really. It's all about the big, bad USA and how it's all our fault. And as I said, nothing good is ever acknowledged. It's all bad.
I seriously can't wait for the day when some other nation is the 'cause' of everything bad. I can't wait until another nation is the butt of everyone's criticism. And it will happen, because heaven forbid people take a good long look in the mirror and actually see their compliance/part in it all. So much easier and more pleasant to believe oneself/one's nation holier-than-thou.
But fyi, I have traveled in Central America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Indochina (and will soon be heading to South America), and here's the thing: people in those nations generally like Americans. A lot. More than others, in many instances. They point out all the good America/Americans have done. When I criticize my nation, they talk to me about all the good things. They don't blame all the world's ills on us and they appreciate the good that we do/have done.
But do keep at it. I realize a lot of people just can't cope without blaming someone else for everything. It's an easy, good-feeling 'fix,' and makes one feel smug/superior/smart to 'know' the 'cause' of everything.
When I have travelled very little time has been spent discussing the merits of the American way. There is an element of frustration in your post although in stating your position you seem to overlook the fact that your country is currently the primary world power. I am prepared to concede that Canada and the USA have a mutually beneficial realationship and that it isn't my intention to attribute blame solely to your country. As you know China is a rising power thanks, in part, to the integration of a market economy to that of a Communist regime. Much like its partner China is expanding its influence throughout the world including here in Canada.
It should also be noted that Canada has granted your country privileged access to our oil and gas reserves as mandated in the proportionality provisions of NAFTA.
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For six days now, the Arab world's most populous nation has been shaken by thousands of demonstrators calling for an end to the dictatorial regime of Hosni Mubarak.
The marches, the shouting, the anger have been generated largely by young men.
So far the Army has stayed out of the fray and has left the attacks on demonstrators to the much-feared security police.
President Mubarak , who has ruled the country with an iron will since 1981, has vowed to hold onto power.
What happens in Egypt will have a profound effect in the region and throughout the Arab world.
In our First Hour, we look at unrest in Egypt and explore the possibility that a revolution in that country could spread to other Arab dictatorships. Is it true reform and democracy or is it all about jobs and economics?
Read more about hour one here
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"So if they throw out the autocratic rule and decide to go another route - even if they have free and democratic elections and vote for an Islamist government, do we not applaud them for achieving a measure of self-determination because that is what we want for all oppressed people?"
Yes. I am somewhat surprised that American leadership is so tepid in it's response to this event. Perhaps the fact that the model endorsed by the hegemon to the south included anything but a free and democratic state. Rather what was offered was a large security force and army funded and equipped through American largesse and used to suppress, kill, maim and intimidate anyone resisting the dictatorship in place.
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The disintegration of the American empire is a sad thing to watch especially with the myopic view of this fellow named Bush-Cheney. Is he a typical yank?
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Posting links without comment is a violation of forum rules.
So what? Anyway those links add to the gloom and doom suggested by you.
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Unfortunately, the best thing for the manufacturing section in Canada and the US is for Mexico to be the next site for a war between the druggies and the US. Manufacturing there would have to stop and retreat back across the borders.
From what I have seen through media reports the war on drugs is being lost and in addition much of the weaponary used in these violent incidents comes from the USA.
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"Okay...wouldn't want to speed that up...I prefer a long, agonizing decline into a lower but quite acceptable standard of living, like most of the world lives today."
I have an acceptable standard of living now and fully expect that to be the case until I die. Less consumption is a good thing in my view at least as it relates to western societies.
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Owch, this is gonna Hurt...
To be honest here Canada getting "sucked in" to the Afghan war can't be lain at the feet of Harper alone, ALL our political parties and a majority of Canadians supported it in the beginning...
Canada's JTFII went in with the second set of US Rangers to hit the ground in Afghanistan to hunt down Bin Laden, that's how long Canada has been in the fight...
Then came the move to Kandahar and Canadian deaths in Afghanistan started rising way more than anyone thought.... That move Harper has to take a little more credit for...
But all this is really isn't pertinent to this thread today...
Bush is the main culprit, and those that supported him of course, for the US debt load and the near collapse of the US economy, pulling the rest of the world, including Canada, down with it...
I predict it won't be long now before the second shoe drops on the world economies... Much worse than round one I may add... Wait for it...
You have a point. Paul Martin, with the advice of that buffoon General Hillier, entered the war in Afghanistan. Likely Chretien made a backroom deal before he left to mitigate some of the bad feelings about not joining the so called coalition of the willing. I don't recall either the NDP or the Bloc ever supporting the invasion of Afghanistan.
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Seems to me you're painting "Americans" with the same brush in your claims. But that aside, I never said the USA isn't seen as an empire. I said that's generally not how Americans see it. I explained that we have nothing to "suck up" in that regard; that mindset involves others' perceptions of us.
As I said, we are in no more of a decline as a nation than Canada has ever been. Life is pretty much going on, and will continue to do so.
Fair enough. I am not painting all Americans with the same brush but am merely pointing out the obvious. Canada is a bit player in the current scheme of things although it should be noted Harper and the Canadian military have sucked Canada into these endless wars. This is especially the case in Afghanistan.
I don't hold you personally responsible for the shortcomings and excesses of your government and military.
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Honestly, Pinko, with all due respect, Americans just live their daily lives going about their personal business same as everyone else. Canada has had financial issues to deal with same as the U.S. has in the past and is now. You dealt with it, we deal with it. We're no more "in decline" as a nation than Canada has ever been. That's what Americans care about, same as Canadians, same as anyone else -- our nation. It's non-Americans that always refer to the U.S. as an "empire." We generally don't go around thinking about it that way, so we have nothing to "suck up." Wanting to be an empire just isn't in our minds/desires, and it sure isn't something we spend our time thinking about/fretting over.
Americans also support a government with a huge military and generate a substantial income on producing and selling arms to despotic regimes like that of Egypt and many others. Americans also seem to support the likes of the Patriot Act and the abrogation of the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps you would like to explain the concept of The New American Century before pretending the USA isn't seen as an empire.
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I wish the Americans the very best in addressing their debt. While there may be no simple answer to this problem it is my observation that the wealthy in the USA have been able to influence public policy in a manner which has negatively impacted many American citizens. With its bloated military and inefficient healthcare system the USA is on a road to destruction.
As a nation it has historically embraced war as a means to gain control throughtout the world. The folly of this self serving arrogance is evident in the crumbling infrastucture and new world order. To my yankee friends I say suck it up as yours is an empire in decline.
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As a consumer a dollar at par with the American buck is fine with me.
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Five years of the Harperites is more than enough. Out with Harper and his cast of trained sheep.
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"They generally do what the people want."
Which people would you be referring to?
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"The purpose of the Senate is long-term, regional representation, not short-term popular representation, which is what the House of Commons is for."
No. The purpose of the Senate is to reward political hacks and bagmen there, chump. The Harpocrits are using it quite effectively in this regard. As I mentioned the Senate should be abolished. By the way you do realize there are four regions with representation in that form as well as through each province.
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The Senate should be abolished.
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Right. I wasn't clear enough when I talked about the organization within the organization. I worked for CP Rail, and the union/management relations were odious, a layover from a century of antagonism. When I worked for them, uneducated people were making six figures doing basic labour... and they still hated the company.
It was a terrible relationship, as I said, haunted by the ghosts of past abuses.
But setting up a new organization might address that. This is kind of what GM tried to do with Saturn. That ended up being folded, though so the example doesn't help my case, I realize.
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Please understand that I'm pro-labour, but I also want a third way. When I see two binary options, neither of which are optimal I look for other ideas.
CN ands CP are similar as far as the work environment goes. Old habits die hard.
The crisis in Egypt
in The Rest of the World
Posted
Maybe Israel needs to learn to get along with it's neighbours. There is a price to pay for being a bully.