kimmy

Iran has the death penalty for gay people, and Iran isn't Wahhabi or Salafi. They're Shia. Go do some reading about the status of women under Iran's Islamic-based laws. Egypt is Sunni, but it's full of barbaric attitudes regarding women too. The whole region has similar problems. You can't just blame it on ISIS or Wahhabis. -k

Thanks, I appreciate that. I agree that "stone age" was a bit much, and I will strive to do better. My concern is the possibility of seeing, eventually, communities that are sufficiently large and sufficiently homogeneous that people no longer have any need or desire to join the larger society. I earlier mentioned the Chinese community in Richmond BC as something that might already be at that stage in Canada. There seem to be Muslim areas in the UK that have reached this stage. There are people asking "since everybody in our town is Muslim anyway, why can't we have our own laws and our own schools?" That seems to be the path Europe is on, and I don't want that to happen in Canada. -k

I'm of the belief that "don't fly in our airspace!" is a less important principle than "don't poke the bear." -k

I really don't have any ideas there. That's what I'm asking for. I don't believe the premise that "well, we're Canada, that wouldn't happen here" will yield better results than Europe is seeing. -k

I accept that Canadian Muslims aren't stone-age for the most part. I've worked with and attended school with Muslims and had no particular problems with them. But we're not bringing in Canadian Muslims as refugees or immigrants. We're bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims, and no information has been presented to argue the point that the Middle East for the most part holds very regressive views. And if you bring in 25000 refugees and 25000 immigrants from a region where regressive views are the norm, you're inevitably going to bring in a large number of people with regressive views. I completely understand why so many immigrants seek out communities of people with similar backgrounds. I would certainly do the same if I found myself in a country where I didn't speak the language or understand the local customs. It's completely natural. (And that's the reason I don't anticipate seeing many of the refugees here. Small Muslim community here. They'll probably opt for places with larger Muslim communities.) But given that this completely natural, rational, reasonable tendency of newcomers to seek out people like themselves... doesn't that make the formation of these ethnic enclaves inevitable? We've had our "Chinatown" and "Little Italy" and similar neighborhoods for as long as we've had people coming to Canada from non-British backgrounds. And with this being a pretty much inevitable phenomenon, doesn't that make ethnic enclaves like Richmond BC or Williamsburg New York an inevitability? And doesn't that pose a serious obstacle to the goal of integration? -k

yaaaaaayyy Nice one, Turkey. -k

And as I keep mentioning, these 25000 refugees aren't the only Muslims to Canada this year, and there are more Muslims coming in the future as well. I said it was a hypothetical. You didn't answer the question. If you don't feel any discomfort with Muslim attitudes, would you live in a community with a majority Muslim population? There are already neighborhoods in Canada with high concentrations of Muslims-- Edmonton's Millwoods district being one example-- so don't just respond that it wouldn't happen like that. You're the one worried about an American coming to Canada for a shooting rampage. I suspect they'd rather just stay home to do that. And as I keep saying, I'm not talking about terrorists, I'm talking about the effects of bringing people with hateful attitudes to live among us. -k

I've read people claiming that Europe's failure to integrate Muslims is because of European racism. If Canada is just inherently smarter or better than Europe... then, as someone asked earlier, why do we also have these heavy concentrations of ethnicities in certain areas? For example, as I understand it, a Chinese person could come to Richmond BC and live their whole life without having to speak a word of English or interact with anybody who isn't also ethnically Chinese. Don't you think that maybe a place like that is just the inevitable result of newcomers feeling safe and comfortable amongst people of shared background, as opposed to any particular racism on the part of Canadians? And don't you think that a place like that would likely result in some number of residents who just don't bother to integrate into the larger society? -k

I'm not criticizing a race or a skin-tone. I'm not even criticizing a religion. I'm criticizing stone-age attitudes that are held by significant numbers of people within the group where we're bringing immigrants and refugees from. -k

Ok, I'll answer that. This is a baseless, gutless, spineless accusation that's nothing more than attempt to smear me with an accusation of racism. I think less of you as a person for having written it. Does that answer your question? -k

It is not fear mongering to point out that a significant number of Muslims in the countries where we get our immigrants (and refugees) from hold intolerant attitudes toward women and gay people. It is the cold hard truth. Good grief. How did you get that out of what I wrote? Take a breath, count to ten, and re-read the comment I was responding to, then read my response, and if you still don't understand what's going on then maybe we can get somebody with hand-puppets to explain it for you. -k

These 25,000 refugees are not the only Muslims coming to Canada this year, and there will be more next year and every year after. I'm not talking about the refugees at all. -k

To respond to your numbered points: 1. I am not talking specifically about Syrian refugees, and I am not talking about terrorism. I'm talking about the aggregate effects of bringing in large numbers of people with views that are in many instances in opposition to Canadian values. 2. Right now Muslims only make up 3% of the population. Do you think Canada would be a better place if they made up a larger percentage of the population? Hypothetically 10% or 30%? Hypothetically, if there were a neighborhood in Canada where 50% of the people were Muslims, would move there? 3. When our gun-loving neighbors to the south come to Canada for a visit, they leave their guns behind. If only we could similarly ask people to leave hateful attitudes behind, I'd be less concerned about bringing in immigrants and refugees from countries where gay people are put to death and women are treated like possessions. -k

No, it's a reasonable question. I think it's quite apparent that large scale Muslim immigration into Europe has resulted in some negative outcomes, and I think it's reasonable to ask what we as Canadians can do to avoid seeing the same negative outcomes here in Canada. -k

So, this thread seems to have gotten seriously off track. Trying to find examples to create a false equivalence between Islam and Christianity is a typical deflection tactic. I'd like to again ask the questions from my earlier post which nobody made an effort to address. -k

A lot of the objection to what I have been saying has been accusations that I'm not appreciating that there are many different views in the Muslim community, or anecdotal examples of Muslims who are friendly and progressive. And that completely misses the point. I realize that not all Muslims hold the same views. I realize that even in extremely regressive Muslim countries, there are people who disagree with the laws. I'm aware that there are lots of individuals who don't fit the stereotype. But we're not talking about individual cases, we're talking about the aggregate effect of tens of thousands of individuals. And in Europe, where they're much further along the path of bringing in Muslims that we are, we've seen that the aggregate effect of immigration from Muslim countries has brought with it some negative effects. In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in anti-Jewish incidents. In Europe their experience has been that increased immigration of Muslims has brought a rise in sexual violence against women. In Europe their experience has been that a significant portion of Muslim immigrants simply won't integrate with society. A lot of people feel that that integration has been a complete failure, and this "alienation" of these Muslims who can't or won't integrate is often blamed for Muslim "anger" in these countries. So... first off, I ask those here who are cheerleading for more Muslims to be brought to Canada: what positives do you see that balance out these potential negatives? And secondly, what would you do here in Canada to prevent the negative effects Europe is seeing from materializing here in Canada? -k

The WBC are Christians. Their beliefs are on solid scriptural ground. Their interpretation isn't a popular one, but it's not like there's a scripture referee that can come in and say who's right and who's wrong (or if there is, He is keeping quiet.) And ditto Islam. The versions the Taliban or the Saudis or ISIS follow might not be popular in the west, but what authority says which version is real Islam and which isn't? If there is such an authority, He isn't talking. -k

And yet Leviticus is usually the very first thing homophobic Christians cite when talking about how their religion can't tolerate gay people. -k

I think bcsapper addressed this well. For people who believe that their scripture is the "divinely inspired" word of God, then obviously you had better do what the scripture says. That's the whole point of the story about Abraham and Isaac, right? God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham is like "I don't want to kill my own son... but God says to do it, so I have to obey." And at the last moment, angels show up and say "psych! just testing!" And his reward for obeying God's work without regard for his own conscience was that he and his descendants were blessed beyond measure. The message is, ignore what your conscience tells you and obey God's word, and you'll be rewarded. And obviously we find there are still some religious people who think that way. You can see it in the actions of parents who refused to take their sick kids to the doctor because they believe God will handle everything if they just believe hard enough. This stuff is still around. -k

Hal doesn't speak on my behalf, and we seldom agree on much of anything, but at least he has read what I have written. -k

As I keep mentioning, my issue with Islam isn't limited to ISIS or terrorism, it's also with the medieval attitudes towards women, gay people, non-Muslims, and secular law that are held by many Muslims. A few pages back I enumerated Muslim countries with population totaling well over 500 million people where gay people can be either executed or imprisoned for life. That's not an ISIS thing, that's not " a few bad apples", that's a significant portion of the Muslim World. That's disgusting to me. And people tell me "yeah, but that's not the refugees! The refugees might not hold those views!" Well, about those refugees. This article from The Guardian gives some insight into life at a refugee camp. And you can find plenty more like it, detailing the epidemic of rape and child sexual abuse that are going on in these refugee camps. If these refugees are such swell guys, why are the refugee camps full of rape? -k

I have no interest in volunteering to help people who'd have me put to death in their homeland, if it still existed. I doubt we'll get any refugees here in Kim City anyway. They'll all end up in Muslim enclaves in the major metropolitan centers. -k

whaaaaa? when did she say that? -k

You think making them watch an educational video and spend an afternoon at a class, like the initiative in Denmark that I mentioned earlier, is going to cancel out a lifetime of social conditioning? -k