kimmy

As the whole thing plays like either an imitation or a parody of western action movies, having a blonde love-interest/eye-candy on hand seems inevitable. I'm not sure I can deal with it! -k

What? Your own picture that you posted earlier in the thread shows the men sitting in a place of honor in the front row in front of the PM while the women stand in the back row and the exit hallway. -k

I don't disagree that he's a carnie and a pied piper and a con man. But of the concrete positions he has, two of them are opposition to the TPP and "build the wall"-- crack down on illegal workers. Can you really blame the poor and the unskilled for supporting both of those positions? "Build the wall" and "deport illegals" are often framed as racist positions, and perhaps in many cases they are. But the widespread availability of illegal workers in the US is a factor keeping wages down. Here in Canada, many progressives oppose the Temporary Foreign Worker program for the same reason: it's not because they hate brown people, it's because they're opposed to scheme that rigs the labor market and undermines the wages of the poorest working Canadians. And the TPP is in large measure a coordinated assault on the value of unskilled labor in western countries. Why wouldn't unskilled workers be opposed to it? -k

The standard by which we measure Augusta Golf And Country Club isn't the respect they show Tiger Woods, it's the respect they show an ordinary black person. And the standard by which we view a religious institution shouldn't be the respect they show a Premier or MP, it should be the respect they show an ordinary woman. As London mayor Sadiq Khan said: Bending regressive rules for somebody because they're a big deal isn't particularly praiseworthy. -k

Which was that? Could you restate it, just for the sake of clarity? What meaningful dialogue occurred on the issue of gender in Islam? Trudeau's shout-out to "the sisters upstairs" seems to indicate that he didn't disapprove of the situation at all. Even in his comments Friday, which he was pressed into making by a female panel moderator, he didn't actually address that issue at all-- wouldn't state how he felt his Muslim hosts fell short of "that perfect ideal" or what "work" they need to do to improve. What dialogue was actually attempted here? -k

I can accept his decision to go, but it rankles me that he is unwilling to even acknowledge the issue. The criticism of Trudeau is not just coming from Muslim-haters and rednecks, it's coming from feminists as well. I would expect a self-proclaimed feminist might feel some duty to respond to feminist criticism of his position. But it appears that this is the closest we're going to get to an acknowledgement of the issue from Trudeau: I can understand the position that we can't just shut people out because they're not perfect. Fair enough. But notice that once again he didn't even acknowledge the actual issue. He's willing to say "everybody has some work to do", and he's willing to tell us "majority" Canadians what work he expects from us, but isn't willing to state what the Muslim community needs to work on to get closer to that "perfect idea". Because that would sound too much like criticism. -k

The "freedom of religion" argument you keep raising is off the mark, because nobody is challenging their right to run their mosque as they wish. What people are questioning is Trudeau's decision to visit it. Bountiful is a gray area, because the BC government has been trying for a very long time to get legal direction on going after Bountiful cult leaders and the advice they've received is that they'd have a very hard time doing it. Now that the constitutionality of anti-polygamy laws has been affirmed they have a green light to pursue charges, but so far nothing has happened. So leaving aside Bountiful, what about some of the other religious communities bringing diversity to our country? Why doesn't Trudeau go attend a Santeria blood sacrifice? How about a doomsday cult? How about a fundamentalist faith-healing snake-handling flat-earth speaking-in-tongues Christian denomination? I don't find anything particularly distasteful about horses and buggies. My mom is from that stock and left as soon as she reached adulthood... I have a bit of familiarity with them, and while there are things I find somewhat distatesful-- puritanical attitudes and dress codes-- I never encountered anything I found outright objectionable. Although my exposure to that community was pretty limited and all of mom's family are pretty much "lapsed". However, I doubt we will see our Prime Minister visit such a place or that he will praise them for the diversity they're bringing to Canada. Leaving aside Bountiful, what about the other things I mentioned? A fundie faith-healing church, snake-handlers, a doomsday cult? How about an orthodox synagogue that practices segregation? Do you think we'll see Trudeau to visit those sorts of people to praise them for bringing diversity to Canada? If he does, do you think it will pass without criticism that he'd choose to endorse such people? If Trudeau were to hold an event at a non-religious men-only club or a white-people-only club, would people let that pass without comment? -k

Oh my gosh! That was so bad, yet so remarkably similar to training montage scenes from western movies! -k

Islamic State "soldier" goes on stabbing rampage at Minnesota shopping mall. -k

What inference can be drawn, other than that they have made an exception to their policies to accommodate women like Premier Wynne and the MP who has spoken there? I gather that there have been false claims made about the mosque, but the issue of gender segregation is not one of them. -k

Is it especially praiseworthy that they make exception to their policy for women of prominence? If the imam says "normally we would not allow a female and sodomite such as Ms Wynne to speak in our mosque, but since she is the Premier we make an exception" ... is that much different from when Hootie Johnson says "normally we would not allow a Negro of mixed race such as Mr Woods to play here at the Augusta Golf and Country Club, but since he is the Champeen, we make an exception" ? -k

Has a Prime Minister visited a synagogue with a mechitza to tell them what a great job they're doing? -k

He can go wherever he wishes, and people will draw their own conclusions from the choices he makes. -k

I also suspect that a lot of Trump's success has been due to being able to successfully con dumb-people. However, I think that there's more to it. Think back a few months to the Brexit vote. The polls told us that the young and the educated and the well-off voted to stay in the EU while the older and the the less-educated and the poor voted to exit. A lot of people just connected the dots and concluded that the anti-EU vote was from people who didn't know enough to see the Many Benefits of Globalization, or people who are struggling and blame outsiders, or people who are set in their ways and want things to be the way they used to be. But that's overly simplistic. We also know that globalization has benefited the already wealthy and the highly educated, and adversely affected the poor and the less educated in western countries. It has accelerated the growth of inequality. And so to some degree you have to consider that the Brexit vote was people who have been left behind voting against the policies that have caused them to be left behind. I think Donald Trump has tapped into the same sentiment. A lot of people think that they've been left behind, and they think Trump can change it. I think Bernie Sanders popularity was the result of the same sentiment, among a different demographic. I don't think Trump actually has policies that can help the people who've been left behind by globalization, but some people are voting for him because they think otherwise. -k

You know, considering the continual portrayal of Democrat supporters as welfare recipients and "urban" thugs by the right, I'm having a hard time feeling much sympathy here. -k

Nobody is questioning that the mosque has the right to worship as they wish. Of course they do. The question is why Trudeau decided to grace a segregated mosque with his presence. Why not go to a more progressive mosque instead? BCSapper earlier suggested that Trudeau could further show his support for religious freedom by visiting the community of Bountiful, BC. It was a clever barb but apparently it went over your head. The point was, they may have the freedom to live their faith as they wish but that doesn't mean we're obliged to approve. If Trudeau went to Bountiful and spoke approvingly of the strength their diversity brings to our country, do you think he'd be criticized for doing so? I certainly think he would. Likewise if he went to celebrate with some gonzo snake-handler fringe denomination, or anti-medicine faith-healers, or a doomsday cult. Those people also have the right to their beliefs, but you won't find the Prime Minister visiting them to praise the diversity they bring to our country. Before you object to the comparison, I agree: a mainstream mosque is not the same thing as deranged snake-handlers or doomsday cultists. But the argument is the same, and the point here is to illustrate why your point that the mosque has the right to worship as they wish is irrelevant to the issue of whether Trudeau should have gone there to praise them. Surely there must be a more modern mosque he could have attended instead. -k

If there were to be a billionaire reality show personality to become president, I'd far prefer The Cube to Trump. -k

His explanation won't change my mind, but as a show of respect for his supposed feminist ideals he should at least acknowledge the elephant in the room (or the elephant standing in the back row, in this case.) Nobody has explained how lending tacit approval to outdated traditions does anything to promote change either. I'm not saying he should shun Muslims, I'm suggesting that he could be more selective about which ones he endorses with his presence. I've read that only about half of mosques practice gender segregation. Maybe next time he should find a more progressive one to visit. -k

If Trudeau is really a man of principle, he will address this issue himself. -k

He picked the mosque because of tradition... but tradition is pretty much the root of the problem. Politicians go to this mosque because it's the mosque that politicians in Ottawa always go to. Services at the mosque are segregated because they've always been segregated. Women use the side door because that's how they've always done things. Who are we to knock tradition? Black people have separate water fountains because it's always been that way. Women don't get to vote because they've never been allowed to vote. Maybe if Trudeau had chosen a more progressive mosque, then next time a politician decides to do an event at a mosque, they might think "ok, that's the one that Chretien spoke at in 2001, but this is the one Trudeau spoke at in 2016." Maybe by giving his implicit endorsement to a more progressive mosque he could have sent a more powerful message to both traditionalist Muslims and to Kellie Leitch. Oh, ok, so they're allowed to stand at the back as well as watch from the balcony. #Progress -k

I explained my rationale in the message you cite. Firstly out of desire to spare the other passengers the inconvenience of a delayed flight, and secondly out of desire to segregate myself from a bigot. Entirely different from seeking out a segregated space to speak in, as Trudeau did. I asked earlier, and ask again: if he wanted to be among Muslims to celebrate Eid, why didn't he find a progressive mosque instead? -k

I'm of the opinion that his decision to choose that place to give his speech was implicitly an endorsement. And when he invited everyone to look around and take joy in the wonderful diversity that is Canada, I think that's pretty much an explicit endorsement. And again, feel free to prove me wrong, but from what I am reading he studiously avoided any mention of gender equality or gay rights, so this is hardly the "Nixon goes to China" moment that some of his boosters would have you believe. -k

If he's willing to endorse a venue that treats women as less-than-equal, I think it's entirely reasonable to question his commitment to gender equality. Question: why didn't he speak at a more progressive mosque that doesn't practice segregation and supports what Kellie Leitch might call "Canadian values"? -k

My read on this is that he and his homies knew that Kellie Leitch has had the Conservatives in the news over this "un-Canadian values" thing, and they figured "HEEEEEY, here's our big opportunity to score some cheap political upvotes by showing we're different from the Conservatives by kissing some Muslim asses!" Well, if you want to grab after the cheap political upvotes with a stunt like this, you're inevitably going to receive some political downvotes as well, and I think the criticism is warranted because his actions directly contradict his words. I really want to hear him address this. I want to hear him reconcile his continued proclamations of his enthusiastic feminism with his endorsement of this gender-segregated space that he chose to give his speech in. -k

From what I'm reading, he said not a single word about gender equality, but if there's a transcript that proves otherwise I'm open to being proven wrong. -k