kimmy

I have taken the big plunge. This summer I expressed a lot of skepticism about the wisdom of buying, but a lot has changed since then. Particularly, the real estate market has changed a lot in the city I live in. For whatever reason, prices have fallen *a lot* since summer. I bought my 1br apartment for about 20% less than it was priced at 6 months ago. My mortgage payments and strata fees combined are less than I was paying in rent. It just made sense. I'm not sure what caused the dramatic drop in prices. Maybe it was the "bubble" bursting. Maybe the more restrictive mortgage policy pushed some of the deadbeats out of the market and reduced demand. I dunno. Whatever caused it, I decided it was time. -k

Awesome stuff, coming from the guy who shouts louder about "the censorship of the left" than anybody. Next time one of your right-wing darlings gets shouted down, are you going to remember your own advice here? I somehow doubt it. Funny, we didn't get a Shady "it's called freedom of speech" or a Sharkman "yeah, well, other people do it too" during the Ann Coulter stuff. -k {yes, the withdrawal symptoms are kicking in. I keep wondering where the Refresh button is on the books I'm reading.}

When Christians die, it's "part of God's plan". When an atheist dies, it's "an excruciating reminder of the consequences of unbelief." God is clearly too busy striking down unbelievers and helping Tim Tebow score touchdowns to do anything for the thousands of starving African children who die every day. Christopher Hitchens dies, #GodIsNotGreat becomes a trending topic on Twitter, and Christians respond with the grace and love with which they are so well known... proving Hitchens' point. -k

Of course not. "American Family Association" was doing this stuff before I was born. I object to groups of people attempting to decide what other people can say or watch or read. I said the same thing about the University of Ottawa Ann Coulter stuff, and when people were signing petitions to deny Sun TV a license, and when people prevented Christie Blatchford from speaking, and when Muslims stormed a stage to disrupt the presentation, and when students unions banned anti-abortion clubs from campuses, and when George Galloway was barred from entering Canada for a speaking tour, and when Muslims use threats of violence to silence messages they don't like, and when activists use the Human Rights tribunal to harass people who say things they disagree with. I have been here for 7 years and you can look at my history if you doubt my sincerity. I think my record speaks for itself. What about you guys? There's a number of people here who have a hair trigger when it comes to criticizing "the censorship of the left" and "the Muslim threat to free speech" and "the tyranny of political correctness", but don't seem to have anything to say about the Florida Family Association. Why is that? Why can't the free speech crusaders bring themselves to utter a single peep about this? So far so good. Still no internet in my new place, so just logging in when I get a chance. -k

What a bunch of scumbags. They work to intimidate and silence viewpoints that disagree with their own, but when people criticize them, they cry that their religious freedom is being oppressed. These people are fecal matter. I have made it a personal policy to support any company that is targeted by an AFA boycott and to write to let them know it. I will also make it a policy to refuse to support any company that knuckles under to an AFA boycott, and to write and let them know it. -k

That Rick Perry's campaign team believe this is a successful political strategy (and make no mistake, this is a strategy) is a statement about more than just Rick Perry. It is also a statement about how influential the "Christian right" voters are in the Iowa caucus (and some of the other upcoming ones as well-- South Carolina will also be heavily influenced by the "Christian right".) -k

Sure, there's loonies of all kinds. Right now, loonies of the Christian variety are among the top contenders to win the Republican presidential nomination. Rick Perry embodies the "Persecuted Christians in America" theme in his new ad, where he strolls around in his Brokeback Mountain jacket and tells the viewer: "I'm not ashamed to admit I'm Christian, but you don't need to be in the pew every Sunday to know that there's something wrong in this country when gays can openly serve in the military but kids can't openly celebrate Christmas." http://www.rickperry.org/ The donation page even has a check-box that says: "I stand with Governor Rick Perry against Obama's war on religion!" "I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a Christian"? Oh the bravery! Christians are so oppressed that gays are allowed to serve in the military? Kids can't celebrate Christmas? "Obama's war on religion"? There's only a few words to describe the man, and the all end with "...-bag". This rhetoric is designed to appeal to bigots and reactionary idiots. Sure, when the Republican nomination is decided the religion stuff will retreat from the spotlight as they suddenly remember that to win the presidential election they need to appeal to voters who aren't religious kooks. In fact they will hit the "reset" button and pretend all this bible-thumping never even happened as they try to downplay the religious rhetoric they are currently using for audiences that are put off by it. But for the time being, being the biggest Jesus guy in the race is the most important issue in the Republican world, and at least until after the Iowa caucus, evangelicals are the only voters in America that matter. -k {I'm in the process of moving, and I won't have internet access at my new place for a couple of weeks, so I will be pretty scarce.}

That actually only works if the bigger person is completely inept. I call BS. Show me a psychologist willing to say that bullies will move on to a different target if you stand up to them. If bullies love fear, they love proving their dominance even more. Far from scaring them off, a confrontation gives a bully a chance to demonstrate their dominance. Bullies aren't afraid of being confronted by their victims. On the contrary, they very specifically choose victims they're not afraid of. -k

I believe that Yahweh is just as real as Ares, if that makes you feel any better. Finding out that monotheism was actually a late edit to a crappy-ass pantheon of middle-eastern deities would put a big dent in the idea of Biblical infallibility, wouldn't it? Sounds like kind of a show-stopper to me. -k

...which was really illustrated by Jon Stewart's Nov 28 episode (viewable online at Comedy Central...) which showed 4 different Fox News panel discussion programs debating Obama's speech, including one where Fox News resident priest Father John Morris (why does a news network need an in-house priest?) criticized the president for doing something that the previous two presidents had done as well. Not content with battling to Keep Christ In Christmas, Fox has embarked on a new mission to Get Christ Into Other Holidays Too. -k

It appears that Betsy has been raptured, and it feels a little weird adding to this thread without her. Nonetheless, I just watched this fascinating video that I think would be interesting to a lot of people who participated in this thread: The video is based on "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, which I have not yet read but will add to my always growing list. The claim presented is that Yahweh was, initially, just one member of a pantheon of gods of a polytheist mythology. Yahweh was the war god; others were Baal, Asherah, and El Elyon (the chief). Early versions of the stories made clear that Yahweh was just one of several, and only later when Yahweh's cult had gained ascendance (600BC, the time of Jeremiah and the conquest of Judah by the Babylonians) was worship of the other gods forbidden. Later everything was rewritten to replace references to the other gods with Yahweh. And the first chapter of Genesis, the start of everything, was written last, as a version of a Babylonian myth rewritten to feature Yahweh in the starring role. That's the claim, anyway. I have not read Armstrong's book, and I haven't read the criticisms of it (which I am sure exist; too many people have vested interest in her being wrong for the criticism of her work to be anything less than ferocious.) Nonetheless, the warning "thou shalt have no other gods before me" suddenly makes a lot more sense. -k

I would point out that his is not all at Obama's feet, as some of this money was already being handed out while the Bushies were still in power. Regardless, this is why I think the Occupy movement was warranted. -k

Boges has it right-- most of the hype around Tebow is a result of his prominent displays of religion on the field. Without that publicity, few would care about him either way. I don't think a quarterback can make a career of running the ball and handing it off. A team can only go so far with bottom-of-the-barrel passing. Tebow might improve at that, and he'll have to. On the bright side, he doesn't turn the ball over. On the subject of his religion: I have read that he blew almost all of his $2.5 million signing bonus in the first week... he gave almost all of it to charities that help people in 3rd-world countries. He kept just enough for himself to make a down-payment on an apartment. I respect that a lot. It was easy to sneer at a guy who makes a showy prayer after a touchdown, but knowing that he sank almost all of that money into trying to help people changed my perspective. It's easy to laugh at pro athletes who think that God cares about touchdowns and home runs when millions of children are starving... but I think that Tebow is probably not praying for touchdowns when he kneels down. -k

That was a good-natured jab at Shady's penchant for parroting the nonsense Fox News spews out, not a complete list of my sources. There are websites that are devoted entirely to scrutinizing the media. There are online communities where people discuss it. And when they get really over the top, even other media sources pick up on it, like the current absurdity about President Obama's Thanksgiving speech. One needn't be a Fox viewer to be aware of their Christians-under-attack stories. -k

"The degree to which the left is prepared to impose intolerance and to drive out of existence traditional religion is a mortal threat to our civilization and deserves to be taken head on and described as what it is, which is the use of government to repress the American people against their own values." -Newt Gingrich, at the Thanksgiving Family Forum on Nov 19. But we're not saying we're being oppressed, nope nope nope -k

Whatever Hitler was, he wasn't an atheist. -k

Well, whatever your intent, the example you provided did illustrate how laughable Christian claims of victimhood are, so again thanks. Well, you said you're familiar with the issues I already mentioned. When people are claiming that the media and the law and the courts are out to get them, "persecution" sounds like a fair description to me. We really don't have much of that going on up here. They're allowed to speak their minds, and when they do, they can be ridiculed accordingly (hence this thread). The ones on this forum who cry the loudest have declined to make their case here. I'm not a Fox News viewer myself. Luckily I have Shady to keep me up to date on it. A large, influential, powerful group in the United States is being provoked into a sense of outrage founded on, essentially, nonsense. To me, that's something that bears keeping an eye on. Canada and the US are pretty different in terms of how much influence the religious right has. But that's a different thread. Not all complaints are created equal. The mayor claiming his rights are being violated because he's not allowed to open council meetings with prayer anymore is being whiny. The soldier complaining because the military's "Spiritual Fitness Test" will generate failing grades for non-religious soldiers who answer truthfully has a legitimate complaint. Some of the atheist legal actions are unnecessary and inflammatory... the 9/11 cross lawsuit in particular. On the other hand, there are often legitimate justice issues to address. Christians? "They're taking GOD out of schools!!!! What about OUR freedom of religion????" is a big thing right now. But it's actually not true. Like the Quebec mayor, when Christians cry that their rights are being oppressed, what it usually means is that somebody else has exerted their own religious freedom. If having your beliefs mocked is oppression, then everybody is oppressed. And if having your beliefs mocked is the worst you have to deal with, you're pretty lucky. Non-Christians, including atheists, sometimes have to deal with more than hurt feelings when people find out about their beliefs; I doubt many Christians can say the same. -k

Very interesting! My education in math has not progressed to the point where I'm proving stuff, so that was very interesting to see. Bonam, if you could give me a clue on where to get started on the Pi thing, I'll give it a try... I am presently attempting to determine whether SF/PF is rational. -k

I'm relieved to know you see the humor in the situation. Sadly, Christians claiming they are victims of persecution seem to be very serious. I made the thread about America because we've been hearing so much about this from the United States of late. Whether it be people saying that this or that candidate is being persecuted for his or her beliefs (see the "Rank the crazies" thread) or the apparent furor regarding "Holiday Trees", or the Hot Button Topic of whether Tim Tebow is being mocked because he prominently demonstrates his faith on the field (personally I think he is being mocked because he sucks) or the refusal of education boards to "Teach The Controversy" and put creationism in biology classes, or the interpretation of each and every church-state court case as an attack on Christianity, or the Christian lobbyists who argued that the anti-bullying law was an attack on Christianity, or ... I could go on (and usually do) but I think you get the idea. For the next 2 months we get the added treat of hearing War Correspondent Bill O'Reilly update us from the front-lines of the "War On Christmas". (the latest: Bill will not be shopping at Crate And Barrel because their signage says "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". RETREAT! Retreat from Crate And Barrel!) "The War On Christmas" is the funniest running gag in news broadcasting since Les Nessman's daily hog report. There might be Christians in Canada who are crying victim as well, but it's really not much of a topic of national discussion, and Christians in Canada don't have the visibility and political clout that they do in the United States. It comes up from time to time, but right now this seems to be a big theme in American politics. Often with justification. Christians might get roughed up a bit on the internet (and so does everybody else) but as far as treatment by the media and public figures and corporations and mainstream culture in general I think Christians are treated with as much (if not more) respect as everybody else. -k

You make two errors, August. The first, you assume that what is true in midtown Montreal is true everywhere. And the second, even if what you say is true, you have not demonstrated that Christians are persecuted, just that Christianity is "uncool". ...because it allows you to form bland generalizations about people? (Lutheran ---> honest; Buddhist---> pleasant but dull; Protestant ---> earnest; Born-again Protestent ---> Angry; Atheist ---> Angrier...) If that's why "religion matters" to you, then you've provided a good example of why religion ought to matter less. For what it's worth, Norwegians are Lutherans in the same sense that Quebecois are Catholics: maybe, in theory, on paper... but in reality not so much. Norway is among the very least religious societies on earth, rivaled only by their Scandinavian neighbors. Perhaps that "Lutheran honesty" you see in their politics is something you see because it agrees with your preconceptions. -k

Yes, my favorite time of the year, when my ancestors gathered together to drink, feast, and celebrate their faith. Remember the reason for the season! Because if you're celebrating Yuletide without the Yulfuor, you've just got ... tide. -k

It's ok to badmouth everybody, up to a point. We have free speech, and unless you present a credible threat of harm, commit libel, or (in Canada) break hate speech regulations, it's going to happen. If you're a Christian you get badmouthed on internet message boards, and if you're an atheist you get badmouthed on national TV by a likely future president. And without further ado let's have a look at the example you provided... Thanks for providing such a perfect example of the mentality I was thinking of when I started this thread. You're presenting this as an example of a Christian being persecuted, but what it really is is an example of the sense of entitlement Christians feel in our society, and how they cry victim when their expectations of special treatment are not met. Had the mayor been a Hindu, installed an idol of Ganesh in the city council chambers, and led ritual chanting before council meetings, nobody would be under the illusion that that was appropriate for city hall. So why, then, would Christians think that a crucifix and prayers belong in council chambers? Because Christians think they're entitled to special treatment that other faiths do not receive, and when they are thwarted they cry victim. I couldn't comment without knowing more. However, I'm pretty sure that the only countries where institutionalized persecution of Christians exists are Muslim countries where homosexuality tends to be a capital offense... so that doesn't quote add up. Countries where there is widespread violence against Christians-- some places in Africa, for example... the violence isn't government sanctioned (officially, at least) but rather the work of Muslim militias. But again, I don't know the specifics. But I'll be sure to have that ready for when the "Persecuted Christians in Africa!" thread comes along. Certainly not. However, religious people are the only ones who'll insist that what they're doing is justified or even required by their faith. For example, as a Michigander you're probably familiar with the controversy over "Matt's Safe School Law" a couple of weeks ago, in which religious lobbyists like American Family Association strong-armed lawmakers into providing religious exemptions in the anti-bullying law. Which was, of course, widely interpreted as a license-to-bully as long as you invoke religion. After the extremely negative national publicity and backlash, the legislators removed the controversial clause in the bill, and Gary Glenn of AFA said what everybody knew they were thinking all along: that the "safe school" law was "a Trojan Horse for the homosexual agenda". As far as they were concerned it wasn't about protecting kids, it was an attack on Christians. Of course. Lots of religious people do good things. Lots of religious charities help people all over the world. Most of the religious people I know are very decent people in every respect. I do wish to make one point though: I give to charity too. And while that statement probably elicited at least one of these little guys: from you, I mention it because at least some of the organizations I've donated to are Christian organizations. And I think that a lot of non-religious and gay people do the same: they don't discriminate based on who is running the charity, they make their decision based on how worthy they think the cause is. So I became pretty annoyed recently when I heard some Christian blowhard saying along the lines of "When disaster strikes and when people are in need, Christians are there and the atheists are nowhere to be found." And you know, this might sound petty... but if that guy is going to take money that I donate and tell the world that it proves that Christians are better people than atheists, I don't want to give that guy my money anymore. I'll find secular-run charities to donate to instead. -k

Some of the members here have been talking a lot about anti-Christian bigotry and persecution lately -- including yourself, if I recall... so I figured a lot of people had things they needed to get off their chest. So please, feel free. This is a safe place, a place of sharing. -k

This topic is very very topical right now, what with all of the persecution and the bigotry that Christians face each and every day in America! Please! Let us break the silence now! And bring this injustice to light! Please post your examples here! -k

If you're referring to the "WWJD?" chat we had, you've either misunderstood my view or you're making a straw-man argument. There's a world of difference between someone who is trying to follow the the teachings of Jesus but sometimes fail, and someone who completely misrepresents the teachings of Jesus. I'm not suggesting Christians must be perfect. Rather, I'm suggesting that Christians are doing a serious disservice to their faith when they claim their religion justifies UnChristian behavior. -k