kimmy

Do you dispute that the NDP is calling for the new seats in Ontario, BC, and Alberta to be scrapped? Nycole Turmel calls it "divisive". -k

Does a yes vote mean that you don't believe any restaurant should have a "no kids" policy? And if so, what do you propose be done about it? Are talking about shaking your finger at them and saying "no fair!" or do you want to see some sort of legal action taken? -k

I doubt that anybody who wants evangelical fanatics in office is a swing voter. -k

Between Perry and Bachmann, it seems like the Republicans are determined to choose a candidate that actually makes people look back on George W Bush as an intellectual and a moderate. -k

I guess I don't notice them. To be fair, when I go to the Keg I'm usually in the lounge, and I'm usually not sober. I do recall wondering when they hired the midget waiters at one point, I can't really recall that clearly to be honest. Yay! We agree. Ok, so having agreed to that, why do you care about "data" at all? The argument you're offering is like claiming that since the overwhelming majority of cars that are sold are 4-door models, manufacturers are foolish to offer 2-door models. You're either too stubborn or too dense to grasp that toddlers aren't integral to the business model for every restaurant. -k

I'm beginning to wonder if the "pro child faction" do all their dining in bars and lounges. It would fit the data... no trouble with obnoxious kids/parents, plenty of annoying drunks. -k

Why would you go looking for restaurants that aren't generally populated with kids, when you could go to any restaurant and the staff will simply deal with disruptive children on a case by case basis? Ok, and when the parent believes that the best way of "dealing with it" is to ignore it, what's your answer then? "Suck it up", as Remiel put it? -k

And why should I care? I mean, there's lots of very quiet and well-behaved people between the ages of 18 and 55, but nobody questions the idea of "55+" residences. Why should this be any different? You make it sound as if they're being denied something they're entitled to, and that's not really the case. If your children were still toddlers, and you got to a restaurant and a sign on the door said "No children under 6" would you march in and demand your "rights" or would you take your business elsewhere? Yes. I feel that children of a certain age will yell and cry and shriek because that's just what they do. "Shrieking brats" might not be kind, but it's not inaccurate either. It's not that I hate kids. It's that I hate screaming and yelling and banging glasses on tables. After I spend a day operating loud machinery the last thing I need is some kid pounding his glass on a table. -k

Those are comparable to statistics for any new business, so I would take that as an indicator of the difficulty of building a business, not an indictment of the intelligence of restauranteurs as a group. However, as Dre notes, most restaurants don't have any no-kids policy anyway. Maybe if they sought ways to distinguish themselves from their competition, they'd have a better chance of surviving. Me and my brother did not act up in public. We learned at a very young age that while it did get you attention, it got you a very painful kind of attention. Mom was from the "if you want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about" school of child discipline. However, that's become very old-fashioned. It's seen as barbaric. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows better. The sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that a tantrum is a child's way of demanding attention, and she knows that if she acknowledges her child's tantrum she will just be encouraging more tantrums. That's why the sophisticated, modern parent of today knows that the best way to deal with tantrums is to do nothing at all. I was at a nearby breakfast place one Sunday and two tables over were a mother and her little tyke. The mother was eating her breakfast, and the kid was demanding juice. "I don't want chocolate milk! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE! I want JUICE!" And then kid started to ... I'm not even sure what the word is. "Bawl" suggests that there was emotion, but it was really just loud noise. The kid opened his mouth and made the loudest noise I've ever heard a human being make, for 10 straight minutes, and the mother did absofuckinglutely nothing. And after about 10 straight minutes of this, the proprietor came over and politely told her that her meal was on the house but she had to leave. I was just astounded by what a sophisticated, modern parent she was. I don't hate kids, but I'm sure starting to hate sophisticated, modern parents. -k

The only part of your message that made any sense, but it's important. Are we talking about the same place? I've only been to a Moxie's once, but found it to be a very pleasant adult dining environment with excellent food. They don't ban them, but they certainly don't do anything to invite them either. And from what I've seen, most people take the hint. BTW, you didn't explain what "data" you think need be presented to justify such a policy. And you didn't explain why, if this sort of policy is so dumb, why more businesses seem to be following Mr Vuich's example. Are all these businesses just not as smart as you are? Personally, between an "internet expert" and a guy who's running the business, I'd take the opinion of the guy whose livelihood is actually riding on the results. -k

Well, we learned in the "gifted" thread that everybody on MLW is gifted. And we're learning here that everybody on MLW has well behaved children as well. However, *other* peoples kids aren't always so well behaved. Well, as is often the case, some bad apples have ruined things for the whole bunch. But so what? I don't believe that such a right exists in either of our countries. But I do look forward to the day that some modern-day Rosa Parks steps forward to assert that her rights have been violated because she's not allowed to take toddlers into some specific establishment. I anticipate a resulting backlash against entitled, boorish parents and their shrieking brats, which is frankly long overdue. Sure, lots of restaurants have a "kids menu" and boast about being family friendly. Some of them even have deals like a free kids meal with each adult entree. So? I didn't see a kids' menu last time I went to The Keg or Moxie's. I never see kids in their TV ads either. I'm not actually sure I even recall seeing booster seats in those places. Come to think of it, I can't recall seeing toddlers in those restaurants either. What "data" need be produced? Does a restaurant owner need to produce "data" to introduce a "no kids" policy? The only data that is relevant here is: (1) he did it, (2) other businesses have begun offering similar no-kids experiences for customers, and (3) he says business has improved by 20%. Here's a thought: perhaps he hasn't shrunk his potential customer demographic at all. Perhaps he's expanded it. Perhaps subtracting the boors who'd bring toddlers to an adult dining environment, then adding customers who've stopped going to restaurants because they were sick of shrieking kids has resulted in a net gain. B.S. And there's lots of restaurants that'll be happy to have them. It's not that "less expensive" restaurants are a more appropriate venue for screaming kids. It's that "family" restaurants are a more appropriate venue for screaming kids. However, it's not a coincidence that "family" and "less expensive" tend to go hand in hand. But no need to worry! People who can't afford to eat at an upscale "no kids" restaurant can dine with you and Guyser and Dre at the magical restaurant at the end of the rainbow where screaming toddlers are hardly ever a problem and when unruly patrons disrupt the dining environment the staff politely but firmly take deal with the situation post-haste. You guys are telling me people are wrong to think that there's a problem here, yet you want me to feel sorry for people who can't afford to eat someplace relaxing? haha. Poor parents would like to dine in a relaxing environment. I'd like to own a lakefront home. I guess we will all have to keep saving our pennies. -k

Uh huh. Genesis mentions darkness, which is clearly a reference to black holes and dark matter, but the writers of the Bible couldn't have known anything about black holes and dark matter, so obviously that proves that the information in Genesis was received from a divine source. A proof is a proof, and if it's a good proof it's because it's proven. -k

What about them? Indeed, what about them? The parents of toddlers are portraying themselves as modern day Rosa Parks types who are being denied their civil rights. But the truth is that excluding people from private venues based on arbitrary criteria is an accepted norm in our society and nobody has seen fit to complain until now, except for the lady who howls about Augusta Country Club every year and that kook who sued to be allowed into Spa Lady. Earlier in the thread, Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight said that crying and shrieking are just natural behaviors for toddlers and people should just accept it. And you and Dr Dre and BC Chick argue that badly-behaved people come in all ages and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I agree with all of you. To Remiel and Oleg and Moonlight, I say that yes, crying and shrieking is pretty normal for toddlers, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should have to endure it when we go out for an evening. To you and Dre and Chick, I say that I'm completely in favor of booting out badly behaved patrons whether they're 3 or 13 or 30. (You can't imagine how many badly behaved patrons I've removed from establishments during my career in serving!) However, a 3 year old who is screaming and crying isn't a badly behaved patron, he's a 3 year old. He's doing what 3 year olds do. If he's shrieking and behaving badly in an adult dining environment, it's not his fault because he just shouldn't be there in the first place. My parents didn't attempt to take me and my little brother to fine dining places until we were old enough to actually appreciate the experience. I think we were probably something like 8 and 10 when we first went to a "nice" restaurant. Amazingly, we didn't shriek or cry or have tantrums, because 8 and 10 year olds don't shriek or cry or have tantrums when they're confronted with an extra fork or a different atmosphere. We conducted ourselves just fine, because we had already learned all of the important rules, like "listen to mommy", as well as basic good manners that every child should know by that age. The idea that kids can't learn to behave themselves unless they get taken to upscale restaurants is just so ridiculous. They could get a babysitter, and have some consideration for other stressed out parents who got babysitters so that they could relax for an evening without shrieking children. The world is absolutely full of opportunities for kids to learn by experience without them invading fine dining restaurants. -k

That's awesome! I hope you left a nice tip. I *can* tolerate annoying screaming toddlers if I have to. I *can* tolerate Kraft Dinner and hot-dogs if I have to. The question is, why should I have to? If I'm spending the money to go to a restaurant, I'm not going there to "tolerate" the experience. I'm not going there for Kraft Dinner and hot-dogs. I'm not going there for annoying screaming toddlers either. I'm going there to have a pleasant experience, not to test my ability to manage stress. People have had to "suck it up" for ages. And now they're being given the option of not having to "suck it up" anymore, and they're voting with their feet and their wallets. And it appears to me that it's the parents of toddlers who are the ones acting like babies. Why are they complaining? Why would they begrudge everybody else a quiet evening out? Are they mad at being excluded? Are they determined that since they have to suffer their shrieking offspring the rest of us should have to as well because misery loves company? Why can't they just "suck it up" and go to one of the many restaurants that do cater to families with young children? Yes yes, like you and Whitney Houston I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. However, that needn't mean I have to hang out with them. We have women-only fitness clubs. We have men-only golf clubs. We have luxurious "55+" apartment buildings and gated communities. You're admonishing people for not wanting to spend an hour with children who might grow up to be doctors or nurses or policemen some day. What about people who have chosen to live their whole lives in buildings and communities that bar the people who are their doctors and nurses and policemen *right now*? Nobody seems to bat an eye at the idea of luxury "55+" condominiums, yet the idea that people shouldn't be able to spend an hour without shrieking toddlers is apparently an outrage. Why is that? The guy who wrote the 3rd article I linked to made the same argument: It strikes me as really silly. We don't let toddlers drive. How will they ever learn?? Well, we let children learn to drive once they're mature enough. Maybe people should hold off attempting teach their children how to behave in a restaurant until such time as the child is old enough to obey simple commands like "stop shouting" and mature enough to go an hour without a tantrum. Why take a kid to an adult restaurant before they're mature enough to do either of those things? It's only going to end badly. What's the rush, anyway? How can you teach your children to act appropriately in a restaurant if they're not allowed to go to "adult restaurants"? Take them to a family restaurant. Are there any rules for proper behavior that you can teach your kids at the Cactus Club that you can't teach them at Pizza Hut or IHOP? Is there some sort of fear that normal well-behaved kids are going to freak out and start screaming and crying if they sit down at a restaurant and the setting has a second fork? Is the salad fork so bewildering to children that they need to become acclimatized to it at an early age? No, no, no. Kids don't need to be plunged into adult dining from infancy to learn how to conduct themselves properly. Kids who have learned to behave themselves at the IHOP and the Pizza Hut will do just fine when they're taken to a place a little fancier, and if they're confused about the second fork, you can explain the idea of a salad fork and they'll understand. -k

Someone might plan on living out their life in the home they're buying, but plans change. Suppose I buy a home today for $180,000 (that's a typical price for a 1br condo in the city I live in right now) and a "market correction" happens in a year or two and it's only worth $150,000 afterward. What happens if I have to sell (lost my job, have to move to another city, get married, have kids, etc)? I sell for $150,000 and lose $30,000 plus commissions and closing costs etc. So I've incurred a loss of over $30,000 plus closing costs and realtor commissions and stuff like that. There's potential to do yourself serious financial damage if you buy high and are forced to sell at a not-opportune time. -k

Do you know where I can find similar information for a larger list of cities? -k

Thanks a ton, msj, for the excellent information! I read a bunch of articles from that site... they tended to back up my general misgivings about real-estate prices with facts. The one that really caught my eye was this one: What's driving housing price increases in Canada? Buying might or might not make financial sense right now, but I have become pretty convinced that stories like Bubber's, or my parents, or anybody else who bought homes 10 or more years ago-- homes that double in value within a decade-- aren't going to happen for people who are buying homes in major Canadian cities at current prices. -k

My dad and my long-time special guy were both in the electronics industry. My special guy at one point worked for a start-up that decided to stop having its manufacturing done in Canada and have it done by a huge company in Asia. I heckled him at the time, and he explained it to me. They couldn't raise the price they sell their product for, because customers would just buy from their competitors instead. So they had to make money by lowering their costs. The Asian company manufactured each unit for something like $20 cheaper per assembly. When they built in Canada they were barely making profit on each unit, and when they built in Asia they improved their margin by $20 per unit. They were still losing money, as a company, because the margin on their sales weren't enough to meet all their expenses. But the $20 per unit they saved by building in Asia bought them time. Instead of burning through their investors' capital in 6 months, the decreased costs would be enough to make their capital last for 2 years, hopefully enough time to improve sales and design more products. It wasn't a wealthy owner deciding whether to buy a Lamborghini or settle for a Porsche. It was a group of engineers deciding whether to make their company survive or be looking for work in 6 months. -k

I gather that the rioters are people who want free bikes. -k

I saw this on the news last week, and was reminded of it today while having lunch, listening to some toddler whine, shriek, and bang stuff on the table while his mother did... nothing. Local Restaurant's 'No Kids Allowed' Policy Starts Nationwide Trend This has gained a lot of attention, and has apparently sparked a trend, and controversy as well: Opinion: I'm a parent, and I get it. Opinion: If children are barred from certain restaurants, they'll grow up to be murderers and rapists. Personally, I'm all for it. I've had enough meals ruined by screaming toddlers. I think the restaurant owner's comment is significant: "...he thinks he's tapped into anger that's aimed at rude parents, not kids." Kids will be kids, but the rest of us don't need to listen to your little angel's tantrum. The rest of us are sick of your little angel. The majority of parents probably do their best to keep a handle on things, but it doesn't always work. And those parents who just don't give a crap have ruined the situation for other parents who make the effort. Mr Vuich has identified a market need that was not being met. He's improved his business by addressing it. Good job. Lots of other restaurants will be only too happy to serve the needs of families with young children. What do you think? -k

I have no debts. None at all. Should I rush out and get some loans and a mortgage before this blessed event? -k

Fred Stamps is a huge loss. He might have been the league's MVP up to this point in the season. -k

To try and figure out why a bunch of people decided they're allowed to eat pork? -k

Vancouver Sun: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Greens+want+smart+meter+program+stopped/5169491/story.html#ixzz1UUbwANJH Inability to put the radio power of smart meters vs cell-phones in perspective (and who would stand next to a smart meter for any length of time anyway?) speaks volumes about the Green Party. And not being able to keep track of their own policy says volumes more. What a bunch of clowns. -k

I think "they do it too" might have some merit in pointing out a double standard... if Michael could actually point out what it is that "they" "do" that "they" should be called out for. When I posted the story about the photographer being attacked by Muslims, I suppose that I could have also mentioned that some tribes of African bushmen believe that having your photograph taken takes your soul away, but I'm not aware of any incidents where a mob of bushmen has attacked photographers in Toronto or elsewhere in Canada for that matter. -k