ReeferMadness

Meh. Sounds like smooth sailing, then. Build away. Sounds like everyone on that side of Canada is going to welcome your sludge pipeline with open arms. :lol: Well, it was an Enbridge pipeline, being monitored from Alberta. Are you suggesting that Enbridge has a policy of hiring only idiots south of the border? Or that the EPA actually insists on clean-up up but in Canada it would be OK just to leave toxic sludge in the river? The Kalamazoo River disaster was the first significant spill of dilbit into a waterway - so far. There is no reason to think this would have turned out any better in Canada. But hey! It turns out that multi-national oil giants and Alberta business owners are comfortable with the citizens of Montreal putting their water supply at risk for Albertan profits.

Nice ad hominem attack. I have a lot of respect for Page but we haven't even seen a budget yet.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I agree that the theory that a missile hit is outlandish (for a whole bunch of reasons). Still, you have to admit that the impact strike (a collapsed outer wall with a single hole punched through the inside wall) seems to be more consistent with a missile than a plane.

Yeah. For Harper supporters, the truth is crazy-town.

Maybe. I still find it hard to believe that aircraft aluminum (weighted down with fuel) moving at that speed isn't going to leave some sort of impact.

I think that it's easy to lie to gullible people who trust whatever the government tells them. A lot of the theories (or maybe elements of all of them) are clearly outrageous. But because they're wrong doesn't necessarily mean that the government's story is completely factual.

Given the way Alberta has been run for the express benefit of corporate avarice, I'm sure it seems delusional to you that people might put protection of their health and welfare at the same level as your unfettered right to profit. Welcome to the rest of the world. When someone can demonstrate that they know how to clean up dilbit in less than 5 years without dredging a river, then maybe we can talk. Until then, Alberta is welcome to pipe its toxic sludge all around its own backyard.

OK. So the aircraft is mostly aluminum - what did all of the damage? According to what you're saying, we should see a couple holes where the two engines went in and that's about it.

I'm agnostic on the topic but in general I think that we're all better off because of people who don't trust official stories. Governments get away with lies all too often as it is.

Oh, we can't operate in places like Iraq and get sucked into stupid US wars? Darn! :P

The fire isn't relevant here. I was referring to an apparent lack of impact mark where the wings would have hit. Aluminum may not be as strong as steel but if you hit a building with an aluminum wing at 200+ mph, it's going to leave a dent of some sort. The fuselage appears to have gone clear through the building.

I do understand that. It just appeared that there should be some impact mark where the wings hit, even if they don't penetrate. Aluminum is still pretty strong. The other interesting feature is the nice round hole on the inside wall. Was that caused by the fuselage? Not likely, given your description. One of the engines? If so, what happened to the other engine? I'm just saying it looks odd.

And? What does any of that have to do with the fact that he (contrary to Harper's demands) prevented bank deregulation and he (contrary to Harper's demands) refused to send troops to Iraq? Two of the three factors that allowed Canada to do so well financially during the reign of Harper were due to Chretien, not Harper. And the third (stable commodity prices) had to to with China. Harper did NOTHING.

Yes. Harper can thank Chretien for stable banks, the world for stable commodity prices and Chretien (again) for keeping us out of the disastrous Iraq invasion.

Albertans should be angry at the way they've been sold out by their government to the oil companies. At least those who care about the long term future of the province should. Oil company executives, investors and others who are raking in big bucks through the short term, gold rush mentality know that when the good times are over, they can take their money and move somewhere else. Those that are left are going to be stuck with a hell of a mess. And no resources to clean it up.

Well, it took you a while to admit that but finally the truth comes out. Alberta has recklessly allowed bitumen mining to run amuck and instead of doing the responsible thing and developing the capacity to upgrade its sludge, it is demanding that the rest of North America accept the risk dilbit spills (which, as we know, can't properly be cleaned up). Thanks for clarifying (eventually).

Yeah. The problem with aggregate data is it tells you little about what is really happening. If I were in a room with Bill Gates, the average net worth of the people in that room is $40 billion.

The sad thing is that there seem to be no laws that prevent Exxon from withholding information and misleading the public about the effects of using their products. The lawsuits are going after them for lying to investors about factors which may hurt their profits, not lying to the public about damaging the environment and biosphere. This is much like Al Capone being imprisoned on tax evasion.

Nice ad hominem attack. I've been banned for far less.

Everyone who has ever held a management position knows (or should know) that if you measure dumb things, you'll get dumb behavior. For decades, we've been been measuring the health of economies based on GDP and as a result, we've been rewarding and getting wasteful and counterproductive behavior. Measuring the health of an economy on the basis of GDP is no different from measuring the health of a hamster solely on the basis of how fast the wheel spins.

In 2006, Stephen Harper rode into power promising "open, accountable government". The way he accomplished that was to lose to the Liberals and let them actually implement it.

Seems like your post is contrary to forum rules but I'll let the mods decide that. You just said that Alberta can upgrade its own sludge. Perfect - so now it can stop importing dangerous, explosive condensate and stop exporting nasty dilbit. That's great news.

Perfect. So then there is no reason to Alberta to import explosive condensate and ship dilbit across North America. Is that what you're saying?

That's awesome! If Alberta will just upgrade its own toxic sludge, there will be no need to ship dilbit across the rest of North America. Let us know when that's done.

The fact is nobody can clean up major oil spills. It was proven by the Exxon Valdez. It was proven by the BP mess in the Gulf of Mexico. And it was proven by the Enbridge mess. The Kalamazoo River spill that cost Enbridge over $1 billion involved an amount of oil that would flow through Energy East in about a half hour and occurred in a relatively remote area. What do you suppose the damages are if the same spill happens in Montreal? They had to evacuate the area near the spill - who is going to pay to evacuate Montreal? And who is going to pay for the economic damages? If there is a major spill in a major metropolitan area, there will be a lot of human health issues that won't be fixed by any amount of fossil fuel dollars. And if the damages start to run into the tens of billions (which they easily could), the companies involved will either find a way to duck responsibility or they will simply declare bankruptcy. Either way, it will fall to the Quebec and Canadian Governments to step in and clean up the mess. You just explained how the current method of exporting Alberta sludge allows the oil companies to play shell games with emissions. And you have the nerve to call May duplicitous?