Rue

Sorry I was busy cheering the death of Gaza civilians. I have stopped. I just wanted to take the time to state the above comment was well stated and directly on point. Imagine. Someone can do that in these type of debates. Good on you. As you obviously have noted in the debate on the conflict people will present their subjective political views as if they are legal doctrine and where the legal doctrine does not promote any political view use their moral and subjective judgements to say it does or should. Trying to discern the actual legal doctrine and its application from peoples' personal subjective political views as to what the law should do or actually does can be quite difficult. I commend your efforts and apolitical, neutral restatement of the actual laws and their applicability.

Produce the words where I cheered the attack on Gaza. Produce them or issue an apology. Bud coming on this forum to make false allegations as to what people have said is pointless. It simply exposes you as lacking in any credibility. You are well aware I have never once come on this forum and condoned or applauded or supported or made any reference cheering the death of anyone let alone civilians or children. That was highly irresponsible. Its time you take responsibility for your actions on this board. Either produce the statement(s) you claimed I meant or your silence will prove you have zero credibility. You are not the first person to come on this board and make false accusations about what people have said. In the past such people have been banned. In my case I don't want you banned. I want your false allegation to remain so that people can see your methods for debate and the tactics you use. Their lack of basis speak for themselves. As well Bud if you want to suggest I cheer death and the killing of innocent civilians don't make false references to statements I never said, just come out and make the accusation. The false reference doesn't make your false allegation any more credible.

I will now respond to more of your comments and know I do not have to use the quote feature as I like to respond to the comments one at a time. However I do note you like to try order people about and tell them what they must do. Lol. Save the Master commands for someone else. I don't play slave to anyone. Rememebr? We left egypt for that reason. You stated: "I don’t know and I don’t find your claim to be particularly believable either." Nyah nyah goo goo. Lol. How about you go and read their comments then instead of simply stating you don;'t know then admitting to me you have no basis to contest what I said but will simply not believe me. Lol. What is that a pout? You stated: "That’s up to the gay community to decide, not you." Unlike you I have made it clear that it is up to the gay community to decide what it wants to use its event for. As I stated if it wants to turn it into a partisan political event to single out and condemn Israel then it should not expect any government funding. That is the issue. The issue is not whether the gay community can decide to turn its event into a political one, the issue is if it turns it into a politically partisan one, whether it should expect government funding. Try as you may to try bait and switch the topic and misrepresent what I say, it won't work. I again point out, you came on this forum to state it is acceptable to use the gay pride event to advocate partisan political views not I. You are the one dictating the agenda at the event not I. I am simply challenging the concept of any group gay or straight thinking it should get funding from any Canadian government for partisan political views and in this case views that necessarily alienate those gays and Jewish gays who do not want the parade or cultural events hijacked for non gay political reasons. You stated: "I’m not the one saying what should and should not be included." You have stated over and over again you feel it appropriate the gay pride event be used for anti Zionist purposes. You stated: "You are." Show me, provide one sentence where I dictated the agenda. What I have argued is they can have any agenda they want, however once it becomes exclusive of all gays and is no longer apolitical then they should not expect government funding. You again misrepresent what I said. I am talking about whether they should be funded if they pursue certain agenda I never stated they must follow certain agenda. You are the one demanding they be funded to engage in partisan political views not I. I state again despite your continued attempt to misrepresent my position and twist yours around-you not I advocate using an apolitical cultural event to serve as a platform for anti Zionist tirades. You are the one who then argues it should be funded by the city. I contend your expectation and feelings of self entitlement to be funded for your political views is inappropriate. It assumes your political views are worthy of funding to start with. Then it assumes the city has unlimited amounts of money to support everyone's partisan political views or in the alternative since it can't possibly fund everyone's partisan political views should only fund yours. Either way your contention asks for a city to indulge you and it won't. You are not special. Neither are your political views. You have no right to think you can monopolize the use of taxpayers' money for your own partisan needs. You stated: " If they decide to include QuAIA, as well as counterpoints from the Zionist queer community, that’s their call." I never said it wasn't. However if the organizers of gay pride do not want to preserbe the apolitical cultural nature of the event and allow it to become used for political partisan purposes then it should not think it is entitled to city funding. The purpose of gay pride day was to celebrate gay culture not engage in debates about non gay partisan political issues in other countries. You again miss the point. Whether the debate is equally balanced or one sided, as long as its politically partisan then it brings into question whether the city should fund it. Governments should not fund partisan events. That is a long standing tradition in democracies and with responsible governments. A responsible government is supposed to be apolitical and remain neutral and serve all persons equally. What makes you think it is appropriate to change the focus from gay culture to non gay political conflict let alone expect city funding? You stated: "Again, I’m not saying what should and should not be allowed. It’s their debate and I support their right to make that call without external influence. Too bad you and Ford feel like you can call the shots for them." Too bad? What you think cities must fund partisan political views? Too bad? That is your arguement? Too bad? Did it ever dawn on you the city has only so much money? Do you think it appropriate with all the debts it has to be re-routing budget money so people like you can rant about Israel? That is what tax money should fund? I couldn't care less if you were ranting about China, India, the U.S., Israel, Sri Lanka, Teh Seychelles Islands or Botswana, the point is not the country you choose to have your tantrum with but the expectation you think the city should indulge you and pay for it. What next. Should we provide you cup cakes with big red slashes over star of davids. Mabe some anti Zionist burgers? This statement though I loved: "You don’t seem to understand what inclusive means. Hint: it's not about neutrality." There it is. The lecture. The self righteous, you know what is and is not. You will decide. Right Inclusive means non neutral. Brilliant logic. Its inclusive as long as it fits your definition of inclusive. As long as it includes what you want. Inclusive doesn't mean it welcomes all, it simply means it welcomes what you want. Right. You stated: "Pride is not an apolitical cultural event:" To many it is and they have argued it should remain apolitical and further that people like you with your subjective opinions such as the above that you try pose as a fact should be avoided at all costs. They argue people like you should not be allowed to interfere, intervene and hijack the event to serve as an opportunity to serve your partisan political agenda that has nothing to do with gay culture and everything to do with your feelings of self-entitlement. You stated: "In my extensive experience on this issue, here on this board and elsewhere, I’ve seen criticism of Israel met with accusations of anti-Semetism. I’ve seen criticism met with the usual misdirection about why Israel alone is singled out." Again you bait and switch. The issue is whether partisan political views should be funded by governments and whether the gay pride events should be used as platforms from which to engage in partisan political views. Your subjective interpretation of past threads as to dialogue about Israel was never the issue and your attempt to change the subject with me yet again won't work. Your contention in the above comment is necessarily subjective and then you try pass it off as objective by prefacing it with the words" my extensive experience". Get over yourself. Your extensive experience? What you think if you use the reference "extensive experience" it changes the fact what you are referring to is simply your subjective opinion? Lol. What am I supposed to do know, respond with my extensive experience? Is yours more relevant than mine? Is that how you debate-trot out some self promoting references to suggest your opinion is based on something other than that? what you obtained a Ph.d in analyzing the contents of the threads? Is that your experience? Get off it. You want an answer. I have seen numerous threads attempting to use the pretext of criticizing Israel state policies to engage in negative smeers of all Jews not just Israelis and to engage in sweeping negatuve stereotypesm, assumptions, double standards and anti-semitic canards against Jews as a people, Jews who are and are not Zionists, Jews who are and are not Israelis, Zionism and Judaism. So? I have tried to take the time to explain to someone the difference between criticizing an Israeli state policy, a Zionist precept, a Jewish religious doctrine and engaging in concepts that present misrepresentations about any of the above or incite hatred or resentment for any of the above. You want to now try change the subject and accuse imaginary people of making false accusations of anti-semitism start a thread for it but your attempt once again to bait and switch and change the topic does not change the issues and those are should the city fund politically partisan activities and should the gay community allow its cultural festivities be hijacked by partisan political groups of ANY political belief. You stated: ".. look no further than your feeble attempts here to paint the issue as me or others expecting the city to finance our political views. " Feeble? Lol. Might I suggest your repeated demand that the city fund your anti Zionist views is transparent and it does not take too much energy to expose it and challenge it? Lol. Nyah nyah goo goo again. Task. The name calling. You stated: "You were the one who invoked Israel’s gay rights record in the first place." Un no I didn't. It necessarily became an issue though because people like you insisted on arguing that the gay pride event should be used to criticize Israel. You commenced the issue not I. I merely responded to it and said if you want to discuss Israel in relation to gay issues, how can you be so hypocritical as to support an anti Zionist organization that openly stated it does not care that Israel is the only nation in the Middle East to take in gay refugees from Muslim/Arab middle east nations? Its interesting you not only want to dictate the anti Zionist agenda to be imposed at the gay pride event, but you also want to support a group that wants to censor Israel's state role in protecting gays from persecution while also remaining silent as to the persecution of gays in the Middle East. Talk about being insincere about gay rights. Lol. You asked me: "I’m curious to know how that relates to the “actual issue” as you frame it here and how responding to a point you raise is misdirection on my part." Well I explained it in the sentence above your question and I will repeat for the third time, the group you defend that wishes to advocate its anti Zionist views stated openly it would not discuss gay persecution in Muslim-Arab countries of the Middle East or Israel's role in protecting gays and would only discuss the oppression of Palestinian peoples. So how does one do that without talking of the gay Palestinians who flee to Israel? Now you stated you had no idea what this group's agenda was but you did not believe me. Well the question is why didn't you then just go and find out what their agenda is. Do you think you can continue to pretend you don't know what their agenda is by not looking up what they said? You think that is a credible way to defend them-basing it on what you don't know about them? Lol. Oh but wait, you also think its credible simply saying you do not believe me, i.e., I am a liar, but making no effort to try find out whether what I said was true or not and admitting you didn't. Lol. Oh look see how many times you have tried to engage in this bait with me here it is again: "In other words, you feel you can dictate the agenda for Pride TO. Glad we established that." Yes what we keep establishing evidently is you like to restate what I said in other words, i.e., with a meaning other then the one I stated. Yes you have established that over and over. You stated: "Again: not your call." ...and I state, again your attempt to suggest I am telling gay pride organizers or gays what they can do is a deliberate and repeated misrepresentation. My contention has always been they can do what they want, however once they engage in politically parisan politial activities, then I argue the city has the right to say they will not fund politically partisan events for the reasons I stated and as well that the gay community has a right to say to you and any other political agitator, mix out-butt out-take your partisan political agendas and hatred and go somewhere else. Regards, THE ZYUNEST DAWG* *supporter of the Oleg Bach for Mayor movement

Mercy. Someone who understands the actual story. You made my day dawg. I will shadd up now. I was also chirping a bit in the other thread about the friggin terror attack. I just some days can't stand the name calling. I hate to see the conflict lead to the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians. As a Zionist I do not want civilians on either side killing and spitting at each other let alone people on this forum egging this on like pit bull fight spectators. Man my blood boils. I know people in the IDF on the West Bank. If anyone thinks they want to be caught in the conflict they are mistaken. One day they have to deal with angry extremist settlements. The next potential Palestinian extremists. The spit comes from both sides and they are stuck in the middle. They are soldiers. They weren't designed to baby sit. After awhile they get very bitter at what they have to do. They get a sort of burn out is best I can call it similiar to cops or social workers or teachers or people who work in emergency wards. Just never seems to end some days Dawg. Always the same sheeyit. The irony is though for me the same people who came on this board whining about Israel intercepting a Turkish ship are absolutely silent on the fact Turkey intercepted arms on their way to Syria. You have to love it.

I am a cynic. Part of me believes the no fly zone is as much about protecting oil fields from both Ghadaffi and the rebels equally. However part of me says, what the phack took so long. Hopefully this prevents a horrible slaughter of people by the mad man Moe. However I won't hold my breath. Moe the Mad Man will simply send his mercenaries in by foot. Gawd help the people standing up to this sick sob. If the Arab League had any bawlz it would send in a multi-nation force and get rid of him. I can understand though how they do not have the resources to do that or why they wouldn't. As usual it will end up being the U.S. the country that everyone hates carrying the weight of the solution. Not that anyone cares but the US Navy has already played a huge role in Libya to date as well as now in Japan. The US Navy's presence of the coast of Libya has made people think twice about shipping arms to Moe. The problem now is all the sob's who want to sell him weapons and make a fortune off of this bloodshed. I found it interesting Russia agreed with the no fly zone. They stood to be the most fierce opponent for two reasons-1. shutting down Libyan oil means more for them to sell and 2. they are not exactly fans of NATO and its presence in Europe or anywhere. The cynic in me says someone had to pay them to look the other way. Since Italy is the bigest user of Libyan oil one would think they are part of the air patrols along with the French, British and U.S. Knowing the Dutch when they see we are sending 6 jets they will help. The Dutch always support Canada, always. They never miss an opportunity to stand by us on what we do. I would imagine NATO will send most of the jets, if not all of them i.e., US, Britain, France, Italy and Canada but it would not surprise me if Spain and Holland get involved as well. Now once they are done there how about a no fly zone over Sudan. No wait, the oil all belongs to China, who cares if the genocide continues there. While I am at it I applaud the US's efforts to help New Zealand and Japan. Good on them. Where are all you anti Americans? Gonna tell me China does what they do when there are world disasters? You can take China and its no. 2 economy and shove it up its keester. The US is always the leader in times of world disaster. Gpod on them. Also good on the British and French for pushing the no fly zone. Oh sure maybe they are protecting financial interests but still it is the right thing to do. The world is friggin nutz but hopefully we can still do the right thing.

Thank you Dawg.. Don't mind me. I didn't have enough Bran this morning Doggie. p.s. Dawg I know I am a righteous sob some days. Lol. (glad you don't take me personally) (growl)

Yah you about summarize this board. A bunch of arm chair geniuses from both sides of the debate hurling accusations and wanting someone to lynch. How about you go burn a cross on someone's lawn. Would that relieve your stress? why don't you and all the others just shut the phack up today. Some of you come on here to use this sorry event to condemn all Palestinians, others Israelis. You are both equally as wrong and repulsive. This was an act of violence and yes it was part of a continuing series of heated exchanges between Palestinians and Israelis on the West Bank. It came about because both sides choose violence and emotion over rationality and logical discourse. Period. Now the lot of you swarm the dead bodies looking for something to spit at. To hell with all of you that come on this forum to spit and add fuel to the conflict. You want condemnation how about I start with you and your demand for blood. Take your screams for revenge and understand you are no better then those who choose violence. You are but part of their sordid display. You are nothing more then a pit bull dog fight spectator. And while I am at it, the Palestinian's Muslim religion had nothing to do with the cause and reason for the violence. I am sick and tired of people throwing about Jew and Muslim when it has nothing to do with the story. Stop using these events to incite hatred against Jews and Muslims or Palestinians and Israelis not that any of you know the frigging difference.

What utter bull. You made the above up. Or do you want to play some more and invent for me the incident you refer to? while you are at it look up the percentage of Zionist fighters that were actually engaged in terrorist activities and compare them per ratio to the remainder of the Zionists who fought prior to the state of Israel being created then get back to me as to their size and then tell me how this equates to the size of Hamas and terror cells now operating in the Middle east per ration to Palestinian population. You want to play such games of comparison then finish it. Don't start what you can't finish. Also find out how many actually were members of the Irgun and Stern Gang before you shoot off at the mouth again and accuse all people who fought for Israel as being terrorists and making a smeer against all Jews. More to the point how would what the Stern Gang did or what the Irgun did make what Hamas does right? What kind of brilliant logic is that? But hey you want to use the arguement that two wrongs make a right go ahead. What really ticks me though is your attempt to try rationalize what Hamas does by suggesting JEWS let alone Israelis are no better. Your need to smeer the entire Jewish community and misrepresent it as having supported terrorism is absolute b.s. Those Jews in the Zionist community that supported a state of Israel did not support terrorism. The Stern Gang and Irgun never numbered even .5% of the Jewish population. For you to suggest Zionism supported terrorism and Jews sat around cheering terrorist attacks is odious. Why don't you try at least to find out just who the Jews were fleeing to Israel and why they were fleeing the holocaust before you smeer them as terrorists. Oh but wait, next will be your accusation that Zionists are committing a holocaust against Palestinians. Yah I know the rhetoric. Stale. Old. Regurgitated. The fact is terrorism by anyone is dispicable. The fact is people like you who cheer lead and make excuses for terrorism are always and I mean always, soft, fat, sheltered, privileged North Americans far from the conflict and have never seen the aftermath of a terrorist attack. I wish I could rub the blood of the dead in your nostrils just once and ask you, is that what you cheer? All terrorists no matter what their cause are equally as dispicable and trying to debate this issue by smeering Jews and Israelis will not change that basic and rudamentary equation. It doesn't matter who engages in the violence, its something we should deplore. You even know what a Palestinian is? You ever seen one blow up? You think they blow up any different then an Israeli? You ever seen what happens to both when terrorists shoot missiles and blow people up? You think a terrorist sits worrying about killing innocent Palestinians any more then they do Israelis? Right. Let me know when you pack your bags and head for Gaza. Can't wait. Another arm chair warrior spewing their two cents from some sofa in mama's basement. Bah.

Mr. Canada you know I disagree with many of your views but at least you get the existential connection between the state of Israel and Jews as continuing people. I applaud you for that. For an often accused "fascist" you show more tolerance then those who call you one and think themselves liberals and tolerant. Then again Franco is not my kind of dinner guest. I am more of a Martin Luther King Bobby Kennedy kind of person. That said let me slay you with a difference of opinion I do not expect you to agree with. I understand your contention and not just yours but many peoples of all kinds of political and religious beliefs, that the gay pride festivities are not family appropriate. I am not quick to judge you on it. It is a legitimate debating issue. Some have argued the city should not fund a festival that is inappropriate to public values. Before I address that issue I believe the city should not fund any partisan political views and should only fund apolitical cultural events. I believe gay people are an ethnic community no different then any other with their own distinct culture and should be treated no differently then any other ethnic group. So if we fund other ethnic events with city funding I believe we should fund gay ones for the same reason. That said I also appreciate that in times of fiscal restraint, the city can make the legitimate arguement that before it can fund a cultural event the community must show there is a benefit to taxpayers funding such an event, i.e., the tourism brought in that then generates city taxes, pays more then any funding given. That to me makes fiscal sense, i.e., if you can bring in more tax revenue then your funding, I say do it. That said, in regards to the family issue, I know many straight and gay parents that bring their children to gay pride activities. I went with my daughters and niece on year. They loved it. Why wouldn't they? Gays are cool. I also am friends with gay parents. They are very loving good parents and yes there kids are straight and did not magically become gay because there parents are. I argue if you have religious beliefs or other beliefs that feel it inappropriate don't take your children and I respect that but don't impose your views on others-let people decide for themselves what they think they can handle. That said, although you may think I am a never ending liberal I am not. I am more classic conservative with individual rights than liberal. I prefer an Edmund Burke approach to a Jeremy Bentham one if we must throw conservative and liberal about. Now that said, I do think that frontal nudity is inappropriate to young children so yah I am concerned with certain people at the parades. The parade has featured naked people or people with dangling penises. For me that might be inappropriate for children. I personally feel there are certain sado-masochist outfits and thongs and sexual attachments that could also be inappropriate for children to view. That's me personally. I just believe we adults should not be sexual in front of them and protect their right to be innocent and sex free around adults. I know the issue as to public decency and whether people should be naked or almost naked generates contraversy and brings up issues as to criminal law and indecent exposure. Its a tough issue. I make no claims to knowing where to draw the line. Me personally I prefer to err on the side of caution with children and adults engaging in sexual displays. I just don't see the 2 mixing. I have no easy answer to that other in the context of some of these guys parading other than to say, don't bring your children if you think its inappropriate or shield your children's view from certain things if you think it inappropriate. Where I disagree with you is in this notion that children should not attend. Young children under a certain age probably as it would be no fun for them. Over a certain age, why can't they go with their parents who are gay or are friends with gays? Children are not stupid. They are not frightened or traumatized by gays. They don't become gay because they see someone is gay. Its no different to them then going to caribana and experiencing different cultures and so it should be. I also don't think we should confuse all gay culture with a certain component of it that can get very sexual and kinky. With that sex component I think parents should be realistic and use a common sense approach to shielding their children from certain sexual issues until they are older. I know gay parents who feel the exact same way as straight parents on that issue. They are no more comfortable having their children witness naked adults then straight parents. However I don't think the question as to funding is simply coming up because of certain marching men and their thongs or penis rings although I do note from past threads such things annoy and upset my guru Oleg Bach who doesn't like the concept of thongs and some have openly questioned whether the city can fund or condone illegal activities. I too personally feel thongs are threatening. Just thinking about people coughing wearing them makes me nervous. Also I am not into penis rings or piercings of any kind particularily in one's pee pee. No that makes me very very nervous. Then again I don't like penises for that matter. Mind you I have one and have learned to live with it but I think for the most part it belongs in my pants and should only used for pissing and sex. I don't believe it should be used as a weapon or macho contest measuring device or to hang a coat or keys on. I also don't like twirling it and my parents taught me its rude to point. So I ruled strip joint dancing or jogging at nude beaches. That said it gets very subjective so I say, just avoid certain events if they bug you. The few times I have gone to the parade I always end up talking to the draq queens that look like Shaquille O'Neil, Dr. Phil, Oleg Bach and Serena Williams. I once arm wrestled a transgendered person who looked just like Halle Berry only she had good biceps. I had to buy him/her a beer. Her boyfriend looked like Stephen Harper.

You missed his point. He never stated Jews don't live outside of Israel. Read what he wrote. He stated and I will most certainly agree with him, that if Israel does not exist neither will we Jews. I do not think for a second if Israel is destroyed, we Jews will continue as a distinct people. I believe because it exists my collective identity can continue to exist. I believe that became reality precisely because of the holocaust, the forced expulsion of Jews from the Middle East and continued world wide persecution of Jews. The fact you even asked the above question shows your ignorance of what has happened to us Jews. Where do you think all the Felashies went? What would have happened to them if they could not flee to Israel. What do you think would have happened to the 700,000 of 900,000 Jews forced out of the Middle East nations if they couldn't have gone to Israel? Are you that oblivious to Jewish history you are not aware of the Jews forced to flee to Israel after the creation of the nation and who could not have survived without Israel? Do you expect me to believe someone like you that ignorant of my history is in the position to guarantee my continued survival as a people without Israel? No you are a case in point why Israel is an existential imperative for Jews, even ones like me who enjoy every possible benefit a Jew could ever imagine. I am eternally grateful to Canada and what it has offered me and my family but I also am aware that my collective identity would disappear without an expression of universal sufferage in another state. Its precisely something I would not expect you to make the effort to bother to understand.

So let me respond to some of your comments Blach Dawg: "When I lived in Vancouver, pride regularly featured a contingent of Arab-Canadians protesting in solidarity with gay victims of homophobic regimes in the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan." Interesting you didn't mention that while you lived in Vancouver the gay pride festivities were not used as a platform for non gay related issues such as ranting at Zionism. Are we a tad selective as to what we remember? You stated: "It wouldn't surprise me if there were similar gestures made in Toronto, but i can't say for sure. Can you? Maybe we should check Mr. Canada's video for evidence." The same anti Zionists had butkus to say about gay rights in Israel or the anti-gay behaviour throughout the Middle East. Like you didn't know. You stated: "It can't do both? It's an inherently political event based around the idea of freedom of expression." No sometimes its not possible to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time although no doubt some do think it is possible to suck and blow at the same time. The answer is no it can't be both for the simple reason if it is, then the gay festival of pride turns into something other then that and then it won'tstop at Israel it will turn into a non stop bitch session for all kibnds of issues and end up having nothing to do with gay culture. You stated: "Excuse me, but who are you to dictate this group's agenda?" I am not dictating the agenda you are. You are the one dictating the gay pride festival should be used for your own partisan political purposes unrelated to gay culture not me. I have contended is not up to you or anyone else to dictate what political views and causes you want imposed at gay pride day cultural decelebrations. No you don't get to dictate and decide and make sweeping pronouncements that the gay cultural festival must be used for your partisan purposes and then try suggest if I disagree with that I am the one dictating the agenda. You ask: "So when would be a goOd time and place to criticize Israel?" The question makes it self evident how insincere you are. Would you otherwise have me believe you can't fathom it would at a political event specifically set up for such an agenda and not at a cultural event that is suppposed to be inclusive of all gay people and not just the ones who have your anti Zionist political views? You can't grasp that partisan political agenda do not belong at apolitical cultural events? You can't grasp that the gay community has people of all kinds of political views and so to remain inclusive and welcoming to all gays at a cultural event it must avoid partisan political disputes? That's too hard for you to fathom? You stated: " Because as far as I can gather from the pro-Israel contingent here, the time is never and the place is nowhere." As far as you can gather? Show me once where I or anyone else in this thread stated there is never a time and place for it. Go on. Put up or shut up. You gather? What have you gathered? Go on show me where I or anyone else in this thread stated no criticism of Israel should ever be allowed. You gathered nothing. You simply project your own subjective preconceived notions on others and try present your biases as if you determined them based on an evidentiary investigation. Right. You are well aware the issue is not whether Israel should be criticized but whether a festival celebrating gay culture is the time and place for it and whether the city should be expected to finance your partisan political views. You can continue to try misrepresent the issues at hand and try switch the focus away from what is being discussed but its transparent and it won't work. I am not biting. "Does Israel's record on gay rights absolve it of any wrongdoing in other areas?" The question you ask me has nothing to do with the issues we are debating and is a further example of how you try switch the topic use the transparent technique of bait and switch to avoid debating the actual issue and that is whether an apolitical cultural event should be turned over to your partisan political agenda and then get city funding. I repeat again and focus back to the issue and state-no you don't get to hijack an inclusive apolitical cultural event and turn it into a partisan platform for your exclusive political agenda. No you are not entitled to taxpayers money. You want to march up and down the street protesting against Israel go ahead. Knock yourself out just don't expect me or taxpapers or gays to pay for it and stop hijacking a positive cultural expression for your negative agenda. Go find your own event. You asked: "Does criticism of Israel for human rights abuses ipso facto imply support of human rights abuses elsewhere?" Again you engage in bait and switch. The above question has nothing to do with the issue as to whetger a gay cultural festival should be hijacked for non gay partisan political agenda and whether such partisan views be funded by the city government. Again I believe your question is insincere and that you know what the answer to it is and that is when the anti Zionists were asked by gays not to use the gay pride day for their exclusive political agenda they told those gay people to f..ck themselves and when the press asked them whether they also planned to protest the anti gay treatment in the Muslim world or bring attention to the persecution of gays in the Muslim world who then flee to Israel they responded stating even though Israel was a refuge for gays from all over the Middle East this consideration was not relevant as issues pertaining to gays in the Middle East were secondary to the need to dismantle Israel. You asked me; " What type of comment would you like to see regarding human rights in the other Middle eastern states?" The question again misses the point. Its not what I want or what you want. The gay pride weekend is about gays. Its what gays want. Its about gays celebrating their culture. I don't claim to speak for them. If the true majority of gays feel they should be anti Zionist and ignore violations against gays in the Middle East and hijack the festival and place anti Zionist agenda ahead of gay agenda it is not up to me to say. It's not my festival. If the gay community of Toronto truly wants to turn there cultural festival into a platform to single out Israel and deny its right to exist so be it but it then can't expect the city or any government to fund its partisan political activities. However I doubt the majority of gays will ever agree to that for 2 reasons however. Firstly gays are spiritually linked to Zionism hard as that is for you to understand. Gays were singled out because they were gay and killed for it in the holocaust. Like the Roma peoples the gays share the experience of being targetted not because of their believes but simply who they were. So if anyone understands the reason Jews desire political expression through a collective and through our own community it is gays. Gays have been the biggest supporters of Israel and our struggle to express ourselves through universal sufferage. They know our pain. They too formed a community the same reason we did- as an existential device to protect themselves and assure they no longer, never again have to live in fear. Gays do not hate Zionism. They understand it. If anything they criticize the state of Israel the same reason I would. Not because they are anti Zionist, but because of specific policies. They are not against Jews having our own country. They simply believe what most Israelis do, and that is that terrorism is wrong, Muslim and jewish and Christian fundamentalism causes nothing but problems and hopefully one day Israelis and Palestinians and all Arab peoples and Jews, whether straight or gay can live in peace. Gays stood arm to arm with Jews, women and blacks in the civil rights movement. The spiritual link will always be there. We share the same dry self effacing sense of humour. We both have survived and coped with persecution by building vibrant cultures we celebrate through music, art, academics, and charity. Gays will not turn on us. Some may feel conflicted with anti Israeli extremist views because of confusion with their Muslim identity but the vast majority are interested in building peace between Israelis and Palestinians or inter-cooperation between them, us, Christians, Muslims, all ethnic groups. Secondly the gays I know are all about including ALL peoples in their festival not just those with the same political views. They are trying to embrace not just gays of all kinds of political views and walks of life but straights too.... and so try very hard to remain neutral and welcoming to all and not pick sides in political or religious disputes unless it is to defend gays as a group from persecution. They do not and have never appreciated politicians or opportunists from expoloiting gay issues for other agenda. That is part of the pride you seem to not be able to fathom. However I do not speak for gays. I only repeat what they have taught me.They have taught me the best way to be a jew is the way they have been able to learn to be well adjusted as gays-to trascend political divisions and hatred and look for common themes in all of us. Secondly, I have been at meetings where the gay community has openly expressed fears that if their cultural festival is misappropriated for non gay issues, it will lose its unique purpose of expression-can you not understand that?

So let me respond to some of your comments Blach Dawg: "When I lived in Vancouver, pride regularly featured a contingent of Arab-Canadians protesting in solidarity with gay victims of homophobic regimes in the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan." Interesting you didn't mention that while you lived in Vancouver the gay pride festivities were not used as a platform for non gay related issues such as ranting at Zionism. Are we a tad selective as to what we remember? You stated: "It wouldn't surprise me if there were similar gestures made in Toronto, but i can't say for sure. Can you? Maybe we should check Mr. Canada's video for evidence." The same anti Zionists had butkus to say about gay rights in Israel or the anti-gay behaviour throughout the Middle East. Like you didn't know. You stated: "It can't do both? It's an inherently political event based around the idea of freedom of expression." No sometimes its not possible to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time although no doubt some do think it is possible to suck and blow at the same time. The answer is no it can't be both for the simple reason if it is, then the gay festival of pride turns into something other then that and then it won'tstop at Israel it will turn into a non stop bitch session for all kibnds of issues and end up having nothing to do with gay culture. You stated: "Excuse me, but who are you to dictate this group's agenda?" I am not dictating the agenda you are. You are the one dictating the gay pride festival should be used for your own partisan political purposes unrelated to gay culture not me. I have contended is not up to you or anyone else to dictate what political views and causes you want imposed at gay pride day cultural decelebrations. No you don't get to dictate and decide and make sweeping pronouncements that the gay cultural festival must be used for your partisan purposes and then try suggest if I disagree with that I am the one dictating the agenda. You ask: "So when would be a goOd time and place to criticize Israel?" The question makes it self evident how insincere you are. Would you otherwise have me believe you can't fathom it would at a political event specifically set up for such an agenda and not at a cultural event that is suppposed to be inclusive of all gay people and not just the ones who have your anti Zionist political views? You can't grasp that partisan political agenda do not belong at apolitical cultural events? You can't grasp that the gay community has people of all kinds of political views and so to remain inclusive and welcoming to all gays at a cultural event it must avoid partisan political disputes? That's too hard for you to fathom? You stated: " Because as far as I can gather from the pro-Israel contingent here, the time is never and the place is nowhere." As far as you can gather? Show me once where I or anyone else in this thread stated there is never a time and place for it. Go on. Put up or shut up. You gather? What have you gathered? Go on show me where I or anyone else in this thread stated no criticism of Israel should ever be allowed. You gathered nothing. You simply project your own subjective preconceived notions on others and try present your biases as if you determined them based on an evidentiary investigation. Right. You are well aware the issue is not whether Israel should be criticized but whether a festival celebrating gay culture is the time and place for it and whether the city should be expected to finance your partisan political views. You can continue to try misrepresent the issues at hand and try switch the focus away from what is being discussed but its transparent and it won't work. I am not biting. "Does Israel's record on gay rights absolve it of any wrongdoing in other areas?" The question you ask me has nothing to do with the issues we are debating and is a further example of how you try switch the topic use the transparent technique of bait and switch to avoid debating the actual issue and that is whether an apolitical cultural event should be turned over to your partisan political agenda and then get city funding. I repeat again and focus back to the issue and state-no you don't get to hijack an inclusive apolitical cultural event and turn it into a partisan platform for your exclusive political agenda. No you are not entitled to taxpayers money. You want to march up and down the street protesting against Israel go ahead. Knock yourself out just don't expect me or taxpapers or gays to pay for it and stop hijacking a positive cultural expression for your negative agenda. Go find your own event. You asked: "Does criticism of Israel for human rights abuses ipso facto imply support of human rights abuses elsewhere?" Again you engage in bait and switch. The above question has nothing to do with the issue as to whetger a gay cultural festival should be hijacked for non gay partisan political agenda and whether such partisan views be funded by the city government. Again I believe your question is insincere and that you know what the answer to it is and that is when the anti Zionists were asked by gays not to use the gay pride day for their exclusive political agenda they told those gay people to f..ck themselves and when the press asked them whether they also planned to protest the anti gay treatment in the Muslim world or bring attention to the persecution of gays in the Muslim world who then flee to Israel they responded stating even though Israel was a refuge for gays from all over the Middle East this consideration was not relevant as issues pertaining to gays in the Middle East were secondary to the need to dismantle Israel. You asked me; " What type of comment would you like to see regarding human rights in the other Middle eastern states?" The question again misses the point. Its not what I want or what you want. The gay pride weekend is about gays. Its what gays want. Its about gays celebrating their culture. I don't claim to speak for them. If the true majority of gays feel they should be anti Zionist and ignore violations against gays in the Middle East and hijack the festival and place anti Zionist agenda ahead of gay agenda it is not up to me to say. It's not my festival. If the gay community of Toronto truly wants to turn there cultural festival into a platform to single out Israel and deny its right to exist so be it. I doubt the majority of gays will ever agree to that for 2 reasons however. Firstly gays are spiritually linked to Zionism hard as that is for you to understand. Gays were singled out because they were gay and killed for it in the holocaust. Like the Roma peoples the gays share the experience of being targetted not because of their believes but simply who they were. So if anyone understands the reason Jews desire political expression through a collective and through our own community it is gays. Gays have been the biggest supporters of Israel and our struggle to express ourselves through universal sufferage. They know our pain. They too formed a community the same reason we did- as an existential device to protect themselves and assure they no longer, never again have to live in fear. Gays do not hate Zionism. They understand it. If anything they criticize the state of Israel the same reason I would. Not because they are anti Zionist, but because of specific policies. They are not against Jews having our own country. They simply believe what most Israelis do, and that is that terrorism is wrong, Muslim and jewish and Christian fundamentalism causes nothing but problems and hopefully one day Israelis and Palestinians and all Arab peoples and Jews, whether straight or gay can live in peace. Gays stood arm to arm with Jews, women and blacks in the civil rights movement. The spiritual link will always be there. We share the same dry self effacing sense of humour. We both have survived and coped with persecution by building vibrant cultures we celebrate through music, art, academics, and charity. Gays will not turn on us. Some may feel conflicted with anti Israeli extremist views because of confusion with their Muslim identity but the vast majority are interested in building peace between Israelis and Palestinians or inter-cooperation between them, us, Christians, Muslims, all ethnic groups. Secondly the gays I know are all about including ALL peoples in their festival not just those with the same political views. They are trying to embrace not just gays of all kinds of political views and walks of life but straights too.... and so try very hard to remain neutral and welcoming to all and not pick sides in political or religious disputes unless it is to defend gays as a group from persecution. They do not and have never appreciated politicians or opportunists from expoloiting gay issues for other agenda. That is part of the pride you seem to not be able to fathom. However I do not speak for gays. I only repeat what they have taught me.They have taught me the best way to be a jew is the way they have been able to learn to be well adjusted as gays-to trascend political divisions and hatred and look for common themes in all of us. Secondly, I have been at meetings where the gay community has openly expressed fears that if their cultural festival is misappropriated for non gay issues, it will lose its unique purpose of expression-can you not understand that? D o you think you should be able to burst into a gay person's home and demand they pay homage to your political views or can you for once pipe down and respect their home? What next should I be funded by Rob Ford to protest against anti Zionists at all kinds of cultural events?

As usual you ignore the point and make some illogical remark trying to be sarcastic. No one suggested criticism of Israel should be banned. What was stated is there is a time and place for it and the city should not fund it. The purpose of the parade is to celebrate gay culture. Is that hard for you to grasp? A gay cultural festival is not something you should be able to hijack for your own selfish agenda. You want to criticize Israel go ahead but don't misappropriate and exploit a gay festival to do it and then have the audacity to demand city funding. Ford grasped that concept. It was not about him not liking gays. It was about him standing up to people like you with your sense of entitlement and saying no the city will not fund people like you who think you have a sense of entitlement to use the city's funds to advance your own self-centered, self-serving, agendas. The issue was never about whether people can criticize Israel. It is about the time and place for such criticism or any criticism dealing with non gay cultural issues. This is a gay culture festival not a bring your political axe to grind and hijack the gay festival to impose your views on its audience moment. Now then, do tell me why do you not bring attention to the plight of gays in the Middle East and in Muslim countries and point out how Palestinian gays flee to Tel Aviv and Haifa from Gaza and the West Bank to escape persecution because they are gay? How is it you remain silent as to the anti-gay persecution that has gays across the Muslim and Arab worlds living in fear? How is it you ignore all the persecution of gays in the Middle East or Israel's treatment of gays. How is it youd o not point out precisely because Israel pursues the basic Zionist ideology of tolerance this is precisely why it seperates orthodox Judaism from gay political and legal rights and is the only gay friendly state in the Middle East which protects its citizens with human rights laws and case decisions? Well? Do tell. What makes you such a blatant hypocrate? Oh wait you care about Palestinians? Really. Clearly not gay ones. You could care less about gays. You see nothing wrong with hijacking their one opportunity to celebrate their culture for your own political agenda which makes a mockery of the real world of gays in the Middle East. Well? Whe do you get off criticizing Israel as a state in a gay pride event and remain silent on the treatment of gays in the Muslim Arab world and think this makes you credible and righteous to the point you think you can change the topic and try misrepresent what people like me have argued? As my guru Oleg Bach would say you seem to be selective as to whose buttox you want to talk about. You want to target only certain buttoxes go to a buttox bar and scout out the chaps. Ford only questioned the funding of the gay parade when it was hijacked. before then he stated he was of the view that the city should not fund any cultural events not just the gay one. He never stated only certain cultures should be funded. His criticism of the gay pride parade changed as did mine when it was hijacked by people like you who made a further travesty of it. One can be against city funding of all cultural events and not be anti gay by the way. Clearly another concept you can't grasp. Ford may be conservative and politically incorrect but he does not hate gays and to say he does is b.s. He has spoken out against gay bashing more then once. I am no Ford supporter b ut fair is fair. For you to suggest he is anti gay but you care about gays is a joke. I would also defer to gays on this topic. The ones I spoke with were quite sympathetic with my concerns. I have always supported gays as vibrant active members of the community entitled to their cultural celebrations. I just hate to see it exploited and hijacked by people like you and if we do live in tough fiscal times then yes aybe cities like Toronto have to look at cutting back on funding of such events and encouraging communities to do their own fund-raising so that the money the city does have can be used for social services. Now some argue the gay parade brings in much revenue for hotels and businesses. That is a distinct issue as to whether certain festivals should be promoted by the city because the money the city spends brings back more in tourism. That is a different issue and if it can be shown such festivals bring in more money than the city spends then obviously that is a common sense arguement to keep them. I have seen all kinds of figures that show the gay pride festivities do bring in more money then the city spends, don't bring in more money then the city spends or are revenue neutral so I do not know whose are more accurate, etc. but it seems to be if it brings in more money then the city spends its a good investment but that the gay community should police itself and understand the city can't fund partisan political views it must remain neutral to all citizens.

You missed the point. The question is should the city fund such events. It started out as a gay event. Now its a gay event being used by a specific political interest group for other reasons. No the city should not fund events that provide individuals platforms to express personal political views and seize non political festivities to engage in such things. That is the point. Why the phack should the city fund such political opinions? If the group asking to enter the parade was "former gays now saved by God" you would be the first to say they should not be there. That is the point. You are being selective on the political issues you want at such events, the city should not be. Whether Jewish gays had the opportunity or in fact were forced to have to counter this display was a reflection on the gay community's failure to keep its cultural event inclusive to all peoples. The message of these particular anti-Zionists did not belong at the gay parade any more then loading this parade with other political interest groups did. This was supposed to be a celebration of gay culture not anti Zionism. If you think everything and anything should be used to propogate anti Zionism and get city funding you are mistaken. I also think its time the gay community police itself. They could have done a far better job on this issue. They could have easily said to this group, its not the place or the time to engage in such politics. They chose not to. Now when you set that precedent it opens the window to every other political interest group and their ideology. what next anti-abortionist gays, white supremacist gays, etc.? This has nothing to do with left or right wing ideology of the anti-Zionists. It has nothing to do with their being gay. It has to do with their message not being about the gay culture at all. It also raises the question as to what benefit the city derives from allowing gay culture events be hijacked by political opportunists for different agendas. The gay community lost a lot of respect and goodwill over this issue not just with straights but gays. They need to get their act together on this one. The people these gays were getting into bed with are not exactly pro gay. Maybe some of these idiots can come to the West bank and Gaza and find out how gays are treated there before they shoot off at the mouth.

go to: http://vivalaresolucion.com/inspiration/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/3217838348_ddabd72671_o-500x765.jpg

My conclusions come from the repeated exchange of remarks in the past between myself and you as to the categorization of all Muslims. It is the same conclusion others have also arrived at. I feel strongly that your kind of dialogue is designed to incite anger and resentment between Jews and Muslims and for Non Jews and Muslims. I also believe you can tell me until doomsday you are a proud Jew, but ironically for someone who is so proud to be a Jew you make me ashamed you think your pride as a Jew comes from inciting intolerance against Muslim people or their religion. By the way its not your face mask I am grabbing its your testes. I am trying to squeeze them too.

First off I have worked many years as a mediator so the last thing I personally would want to do on this forum is serve as one. Thanks. I do that in real life. This forum gives me a chance to have opinions and I do not hide them and do not want to. So I appreciate Betsy's comment awhile back but thnaks, no thanks. Also I do not have the time and also I want to be able to argue with people and do not want to be nice. Lol. Also I want it clear and on the record I love American Women's comments and would want to make babies with her if I wasn't so old and toxic and she didn't have such good taste. So if you have a problem with her, you deal with me. That said, JBG come off it. Your biases would prevent you from being a facilitator, moderator or anything but what you are on this forum, an agitator. Your agenda is to confront. Your agenda is to incite friction between Muslims and Jews and as a Jew I have never appreciated your repeated role and I will not hold any punches about what I think your agenda is. That said, that is simply my opinion. As much as I despise your agenda JBG if other people think you can be neutral, lol they are welcome to you. Wild Bill is to me a good guy. But he probably has a sex life so I can not speak for hm but I speculate this is why they call him Wild. Facilitator jobs are suitable to people who want to spend time on this board and do not feel the need to express opinions on the topics they facilitate. They would need to have patience and time to spare and be able to control their own feelings and emotions. It is a lot harder then it sounds. Whoever ends up doing the facilitator job like the moderator will have my support and thanks. Like the moderator job it would not be easy. Its not a beauty contest. I can think of a lot of people I have debated hard and blasted on this forum and who showed me courtesy in such exchanges, many. I wouldn't know where to start. Most of the regulars. So I can't imagine the inappropriate person ending up doing it. Whoever does it will be good. Also in conclusion I would vote for Oleg Bach as Mayor of the forum if we ever create such a position. If for no other reason his referring to politicians as sodomizers captures the essence of this forum's purpose and the kind of Mayor I would vote for.

Oleg is anything but "crazy". The only word I would use is lol, "jaded" or a tad 'cynical". Sometimes I agree with Oleg sometimes I find him way from outer space, sometimes I disagree. All I know is Oleg says what he thinks. Oleg I find your comments about gay people bizarre by the way. I think you need to spend a bit more time distinguishing pedophiles from gays. I suspect though there is a good reason you blur the two categories. May I suggest on that issue I read into your comments unresolved anger at being betrayed and violated in your life. On that point I will only say, you are too insightful and creative to remain angry at certain things you can never change from the past.I speak from experience. Use your intelligence to pierce the illusions that the betrayals have led you to feel. Oleg you are an individual. No other term need to be used. Phack labels. Now I am waiting for your latest analysis of Ghaddafi.

I can only speak for myself and the answer is two words, "the content". He and JBG deserve each other and if you want to cheer Bud on as a groupie be my guest. I just want it clear, I am Oleg Bach's groupie especially when he raves about hypocritical politicians engaging in sodomy but I have not bought any Oleg Bach t-shirts yet. Oleg I am making you famous with my references. Soon you will be on Saturday Night Live.

Yep.

This can get confusing. Which kind of Japs are we talking about? Sorry I could not resist. Spank moi. I know it was politically improper and sexist but come on someone had to say it.

Also one of the reasons I say to you, your thread of course will incite responses on cue just like Bud's because he is a mirror version of you-someone who thinks he is superior to others and thinks the way to establish his identity is to point out the savagery of others. You both fail miserably. All you have both done is misappropriate savage human behaviour to give yourselves a pretext to spew your own hatred.

Oh I get the point. The point is how easy it is for you to expect other people to act righteously. The problem is I have found the people quickest to tell others how wicked they are live the exact same way. Oh but I know. You are perfect. You don't drive. You don't purchase any products from anyone who is unethical. You've never eaten anything that came from needlessly subjecting animals to pain. You live a pristine life and now from your pedestal you look down at we unshaven, heathen and chastize us for our debauchery. This is why I prefer the Oleg Bach approach to life where we accept the fact that all human beings are whores and get over ourselves.

Quite frankly in the above 3 cases it appears the lunatics in charge killed off any opposition and if there were any remaining young men they fled to other countries or died from AIDS. AIDS has devestated the populations in these countries as well as death squads. I have a friend who escaped from Zibabwe into South Africa and then came to Canada. Just being male and a certain age made him automatically suspect. Its hard to fathom just how efficient these lunatics are at killing people. When you think of it the revolution so far has been an Arab or Middle East phenomena but with the internet and cell phone who knows. I would like to see it happen in China. Ooops I am sure I will have Chinese internet police send out my name across the internet having sex with aardvarks now. That's fine. See if I buy any lead toothpaste or toys from them.