Rue

Actually the question was designed to really state America does not know what is best for other countries. That was your intent. Ironically I could argue sometimes it does know what's best for other countries because it has open dialogue with those countries and simply asks. The U.S. props unpopular leaders in countries. So does Canada and every other nation on this planet..so what is your point exactly-that nations prop governments not popular with the natives but good for their own financial interests? Did you just notice that now? Do you think it is specific to the US? This constant US bashing as an adjunct to discussing Egypt is as interesting as the anti Israel comments. There is a need by some to scapegoat and look for targets to blame things on. No one should be surprised using Israel or the US as the scapegoat. Its a way for the Muslim brotherhood to rally people. Traditionally in the Middle East when your economy collapses due to coruption and instability you burn an Israeli or American flag. Works every time. Beats having to be responsible for your own actions. Beats be

Take a break from responding to him. Don't bother. At this point the 2 of you are just name calling each other with insults. Leave it. Let it go. Its not worth it.

How does such name calling get your point across. Knock it off. Discuss the issues or if you can't hold off the name calling with him just don't respond to him.

You no doubt feel the criticism is muted but why? Is it because its muted or because you choose no to see it? Tell me when you don't see the criticism of Israel in the U.S. is it because it really isn't there? You so sure? You think Israel mind controls the US and has it simply doing what it wants? Golly gee never heard that before. Really? Right. I know. The Military Industrial lobby which controls Israel as much as it does the US economy can you see it? Can you see the oil lobby? Why not? How did they magically disappear? Did they go poof the same way all the support for Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, the UAE and Kuwait did? Poof? I love it. The military industrial and oil lobbies have nothing to do with US Middle East foreign policy-its just Israel that shapes it. No one else. Poof begone. Its those mind controlling Jews. They send a couple of Jews to congressional hill and presto, the entire country is captive. Why sure. All Americans are idiots and controlled by the mystical powers of the bagel people. Got news for you-its time you move past the bagel conspiracy theory and try examine who shapes US foreign policy and why. Save the bagel people conspiracy theories for a UFO site. We are after all alien invaders some to suck the brains of Yanks.

I myself prefer the above explanation then ones that point to religion or conspiracies of mind control by zionist mason illuminati shape shifting alien Hollywood movie producing bankers. Must concur. Of course much of what you said is generalization but for the sake of brevity and discussion I think it was excellently summarized. There are many reasons or levels of analysis of the relationship but this for sure I think is a basic one.

Hey I saw American Woman first, back off. p.s. the only thing we need fear from the US is New York Yankees fans. Trust me they are animals.

First off and I do not have to say it to Bush because he knows where I stand on the matter, while I disagree with him on democrat v. republican and make no apologies for my kennedy-luther king-obama blatant biases I totally agree that anyone who tries to blame either the US or Israel for what goes on in Tunisia or Egypt is full of it. The support of the Western allies of Egypt is no different then why China supporrts Iran and Sudan. Countries claiming to be democratic especially the Euro union have propped dictatorships no different than Russia, China, Venezuela, Brazil, Switzerland, etc. There is not a righteous nation in the world. All nations have relations with others like whores. It is a fact. International relations is all about pursuing own's one financial needs. Always has been, always will be. To single out the U.S. and suggest it is any different then Canada or any other nation in that regard is a crock. You want to harp about supporting military dictatorships understand this is an inevitable consequence of nations propping people who they think are in their best immediate interests and such alliances change as the wind blows. That is the world of politics. It aint nice but its reality. There are a lot of blithering two faces in Canada. We like to think we are superior to the Americans and enlightened. Horse crahp. The crisis in Egypt is no different then any other that have arisen over its troublesome history. For those who live in the snapshot moment they will no doubt disconnect from the fact that Egypt has had a continuing series of violent uprisings. Yah you can trot out the self-righteous horse crahp, blame the US and Israel, wax poetic over the little guy in Cairo and then move on to the next trendy cause. Yesterday it was Ted Williams the homeless man, the day before that Haitiens, today Egyptians and tomorrow who knows. Oh those Tunisians? How long did they last-5 seconds? The fact is most of us live far from Egypt and can afford to be smug and righteous in our pronouncements. We don't live next door to it. From our distance we can portray the men on the street as cute little adorable democrats.. you don't have to fear the dark and them coming to rape your wife and rob you blind. Bush Chaney will not get a lecture from me nor will American Woman nor will Egyptians or Israelis or anyone else. As far as I am concerned we all suck and have the same problems to work on. I can only hope Egyptians find a peaceful solution. I can only dream they find a peaceful way to coexist with themselves and with Israel as Canada does with the U.S. I have nothing to say to Egyptians but good luck. I have nothing to say to Israelis other then I can understand the fear it is generating and once again we must look into the turbulence and the storms and keep our faith.

I think what you said is a gross generalization but none the less keeping that in mind I too agree with what you are saying to a reasonable extent. Egypt is overpopulated. So is the Gaza and many other Arab countries and when I say that I mean in their capacity to look after themselves. I also think Israel feels it to its benefit to continue to try bring in as many Jews as possible as Israeli citizens because of the Israelis leaving and because of the Palestinian population rate compared to the Israeli one and the fact that within pre 1967 Israel non Jewish Israelis if the population rates continue will out number Jews within the next 25 years making the terrorist threat a moot point. For those that do not understand, its no utopia for Jews in Israel. They face high taxes, a constant threat, a world that hates them and millions of arm chair geniuses who claim to know what is good for them and think they are racist for wanting to be Jewish and not fear the state persecuting them and defining them as second class and instead enshrined to protect them from another holocaust, pogrom, mass ethnic cleansing, terrorism, anti-semitism and Bud. The constant portrayal of Israel as this unfairly advantaged state is a crock foisted by the same people who suspend history and become selective over the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab League of Nations, the Arab League's decision to try force a war to remove them and use Palestinians as pawns in that regard and the fact that the very same colonial powers that created and supported the Arab countries against Israel are part of a religious system that entrenched the thousands of years of persecution against Jews which forced them to seek universael emancipation. It is the height of hippocracy for the nations of Europe or Arab world both replete with histories of persecuting Jews and having their own Christian and Muslim nations telling we Jews we can't have a nation and don't know our place. You can take the supposition that a Jew's place is not in its own nation and stuff that condescending, patronizing and anti Jewish attitude where the sun doesn't shine. Next person to lecture me on where my place is and how I am doomed has my face in their face and a reminder, I do know my place and its not as a subject of a Muslim or Christian sttae's discrimination. As for Israelis who come to Canada, it is a great nation but you will find we Jews can't hide here anymore then we can in Israel. Our collective destiny is inter-related to the same battle for existence whether we like it or not. The world will never let us forget that.

the same reason you reduce every post to simplistic name calling against Israel and he is attacked personally. He's a friggin Israeli. He feels threatened by your comments. Try stucture what you say in non personal terms and maybe he won't feel the need to defend himself on a personal level. Spend all your time name calling Israel and calling for the end of its existence here's a hint, he probably will consider you a threat. It aint rocket science. Let's talk about the issues not ourselves please.

Is it possible for you to debate his views without the personal remarks and the signs of disrepect? Is it? Is it possible for any of us to simply debate the opinions? Yah I read what you wrote. Its nothing but an attempt to insult and bait. Lol lol lol? Look at how the dialogue deteriorates. We have you baiting Bob and Bud trotting out the Israel is racist apartheid South Africa terrorist name calling. Is it possible we talk about the issues instead of trying to behave like we are all righteous? If you do not like the opinions he expresses state why. Simply making the accusation he makes things up means what? Should I tell you that you did the same thing in your name calling to him? What does it serve to do? Let's either talk about the issues and why we disagree with them or shaddup.

Its statements like the above that are the reason you get the responses you do. Your extreme language can do nothing but bring back extreme responses. Do you really expect a middle of the roader like me to bother to respond to you? Look at what you stated. Who is "they"? Do you think if you preface the comment with "maybe" it some how gives it credibility? Go find out what the total numebr of irgun and Stern gang members were, the total population of Jews in Israel at their time of existence and then tell me the percentage of that population they were. Can you do that or do you want to trot out the Zionists are just as terrorist as Hamas b.s. some more. As for the second comment is simply shows why when you make comments like that you reduce them to simplistic diatribes reflecting your own extreme views. Out comes the Israel is racist apartheid South Africa b.s. to match the Zionists are terrorists one. Thanks for the meaningful dialogue.

Well stated 100% concur.

Lol just once I would like to see you be able to restate the above point without the partisan buzz words, i.e., like this: "if the Palestinian political representatives and their people refrain from terror and violence....recognition as a people by Israel would become inevitable." Your point which would otherwise have been valuable and insightful.

Your need to continue to point out to me you feel Bob is wrong and you are right is pointless. The fact you feel that way was evident already.

Oh do explain.

Say now am I supposed to take solace in seeing the last response to me opened the door to other Western allies to blame other than the U.S. Right. Isn't it interesting Libya is Tunisia's most strategic partner. heaven forbid we bring Moe Ghaddafi and his heavy propping of the corupt government to secure his oil pipeline into the equation. After all Moe is just a victim to of Western governments. Everyone but the West is a victim. Not that I want to interupt any further blame the US knee jerk reactions but if anyone is actually interested in who Tunisia's major suppliers and trade partners were/are and its not the US they can go to: http://www.muslimtrade.net/tradeguideline/tunisia/index.html

Of course it might. You know what snap shot analysis is? That is when we take a snap shot of Tunisia and the US and ignore the rest of the world. Foreign policy is an intricate series of relationships each inter-related to another. The relationship between the US and Tunisia is part of a greater equation-US foreign policy as to Tunisia does not work in a vacuum unrelated to the rest of the world or the Middle East and how things that may happen in Tunisia may effect the US's relations with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, China, on and on. Of course it is illogical to simply blame the U.S. You think Tunisia;s economic malaise is only created by the US? No other country in the world had financial interests in Tunisia and did business with its corupt leaders? Right. How about you go find out who did business with Tunisia and then tell me how you think it logical to only blame the US and ignore any other country's influence on the corupt government or for that matter the decision of those corupt Tunisians for their own actions. Heaven forbid someone who is corupt has any responsibility for their own behaviour.

Goy is simply Yiddish for one from outside the ghetto and goyim is the plural of it. When we Jews use it we might use it derogatorily or simply as an alternative word to "gentile". The word itself does not automatically make it negative or insulting, the context in which it is used does and that is why the dictionary can only suggest the possible meanings it could have depending on the contexts in which it is used. There is no one way to use it. What I can say and any Jew can tell you is if we use the word goy its almost always used interchangeably for gentile and particularly in a context where we feel someone's not being Jewish makes them blind to something culturally all Jews would find obvious. Laughingly the only gentile I know on this forum who uses goy properly in a sort of absurd tongue and cheek way is Oleg Bach. Seriously though if I were to use the word the way we use it I would say it is a very goy thing for a goy to think we use the word goy simply to mean we hate all non Jews. Get it? If you read back the last sentence its not explosive or derogatory just saying we think someone can't understand our perspective because they are not making the effort or just can't get it. We use it usually in response to someone who just doesn't get something cultural about us or says something very ignorant or discriminatory of our religion or culture. Simply using it as an insult would make no sense. It needs a context to attach to. Its not like the N word which is so explosive now it can never be used by non blacks. Different history, different context in how its used and in Yiddish its not derogatory. Its like the word schwartz. That is the German word for the colour black. Its the same word used in Yiddish. People immediately think if a Jew says "shvartzah" its like saying the N word. No. It could be used in a context to be disriminatory or racist but then again it might not at all. Depends on the person or context. To automatically assume its used only as a racist description of blacks is just not true. In fact old East European Jews used the word a lot and many blacks thought they were being nasty when they were not meaning to be just trying to distinguish them as another distinct minority as all minorities can do with one another. I mean we can also get into a huge debate and assume everytime a goy/gentile uses the word "Jew" they are being derogatory and should instead use the more toned down word "Jewish". Uh no. Context. Its all in the context. Yes I get my edge up when I am described as a Jew and not Jewish but for heaven's sake I try give people the benefit of the doubt and wait and decipher their context. If Oleg Bach calls me a Jew he usually puts the word Orange in front of it to make it sound not as bad. (that's a joke) I suppose the closest way I could explaingiy to a black person (non Hebrew brother, sometimes we Jewish people call each other Hebrew brothers if we are being sarcastic) is saying its like calling a non black person a NON-brother. We also don't use it against each other in a negative self hating or depreciating way as blacks do with one another with the n word. If we mean to insult each other we usually use the word putz or shmuck.

The slime bucket mass murderer has run out of money. His ex wife took all of it in a divorce and he spent the rest. He's come back thinking he can get his chubby greedy hands on the aid money coming in. The sob is already living for "free" as a guest in a hotel working with former corupt cronies trying to get himself back into power. Fat basterd.

I will say it again and need to clarify it. First off technically Darfur is not in the south its to the West. I think what ever happens to the geographic North and South regions of Sudan, the black Christians mostly in Darfur but also in Southern Sudan will continue to suffer and be victims of a civil war. I t hink their trials and tribulations will continue. I also think the notion that the South and North will live in peaceful co-existence is wishful thinking and soon explode. I hope I am wrong. My pessimism is based on the fact I don't think whatever happens the people starving in Darfur will see one penny of the oil revenue help them and I believe the average shmo in the South and for that matter the North will remain as they are now while only a few sob corupt politicians will pocket all the oil revenue and China will continue to get 99% of it. I sound just like Oleg Bach!

Yes. I have said the same thing to him as you did above on the past to no avail. But then I also make no claim to be a moral crusader on the board and tell anyone what they can say. I can only express my opinion like yours.

Bloody I make no comment on whether you or he are in a better position to render moral comments. I would say his perspective as to being exposed to immediate danger and fear of terrorism would probably be different than yours. That is all. When it comes to morality I can only comment on my own views and I am the first to admit to you Bloody there are days when I just don't know anymore what is right or wrong morally with many conflicts. It just gets so friggin muddled. I would like to think whatever coin of the debate we are on though we all agree no one wants either Israelis or Palestinians stuck in a never ending conflict and its "wrong" if I may use that word for any civilian Palestinian or Israeli to be exposed to violence and turmoil and despair, etc. You know what I mean.

Here is an article from India which I personally believe tries to stay neutral. It does acknowledge the hardships faced by Palestinians while also trying to explain the problems from Israel's perspective as well. I think it is quite sympathetic to the Palestinian version of what's wrong and a little bias in that favour but none the less tries to indicate the Israeli perspective as well. Where I think it shows its bias is in referring to the Mayor of Jerusalem as a right winger. I think such a label is meaningless. At the municipal level of politics it is meaningless. He is struggling to find ways to accommodate growth of Christians and Muslims as well as Jews. Calling him a right winger is kind of pointless. At that level of politics even if you are considered more pro Israeli then Palestinian it has nothing to do with right or left wing political ideology. Plenty of pro Palestinians on the Jerusalem issue are right wingers and plenty of pro Israelis on Jerusalem could be left wing. I think the need to attach convenient left or right wing labels on municipal politics is absurd almost absurd as it gets to suggest the Palestinian Authority or Hamas are left wing. In fact they are quite right wing to the point of ressembling in the case of Hamas and the PA out and out facism. A Palestinian does not dare disagree with Hamas or the PA on any political issue without getting a visit at night. That is the reality. The reality is Arab peoples in East Jerusalem have built over 20,000 homes illegally. That is a fact. Now whether you want to simplify that as suggesting its all Israel's fault they did this you can but that is highly unfair. A lot of times such people did it because they were illegally grabbing land before OTHER Palestinians could get title to it. To portray all the permit issues as simply Jews v.s. Muslims or Israelis v.s. Palestinians is b.s. That I know for a fact. I know of Palestinians who have been responsible for engaging in elaborate title fraud at the expense of other Palestinians both in East Jerusalem and on the West Bank and using the greater conflict with Israel as a cover to carry out their b.s. I also know Israelis that have been unfair to Palestinians, Palestinians who have been unfair to Israelis and Israelis who have been unfair to Israelis in all kinds of real estate transactions. It is not the simplistic black and white equation some make it to be. http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1718/17180500.htm

Here Dre are some stats on the topic-I am trying to be middle of the road on this in my response to you so you don't think I am stone walling you: http://www.btselem.org/english/Planning_and_Building/Statistics.asp Here is an article that basically says what I am saying: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Building+in+Jerusalem%3a+myths+and+realities.-a0229717537 Here is a response that paints another side of the arguement on Jerusalem from yours Dre: http://www.ourjerusalem.com/press/story/on-the-lookout-for-bias-at-npr.html Here is an article I think is middle of the road and what I am trying to bring up: http://www.meforum.org/343/understanding-jerusalem. Here is an explanation of the problem with illegal permits in East Jerusalem as per the Mayor of Jerusalem: http://www.aish.com/jw/j/104658574.html.

Dre with due respect it is not that simple. Israeli Jews as well as Israeli Arabs or Palestinians all experience many difficulties with the paper work involved with the municipality of Jerusalem. Yes it could be some of it is deliberately motivated by politics but I suspect a lot of it has to do with simply one thing-bureaucratic ineptitude. The municipal governments and for that matter federal government in Israel does not run as smoothly as it does in Canada. Don't make the mistake of thinking when it screws up its always a deliberate politically partisan reason. I also will go out on a limb and say its possible regardless of what religion you are if you pay the right person it may speed some paper work up. All that said there is another issue and it is very complex. A lot of Israeli Arabs refuse to pay taxes. This in turn means they run into all kinds of bureaucratic problems getting permits. That is a problem that is very very complex. Look I do not doubt there have been major contraversies with building permit applications in East Jerusalem but I think you also need to research it a bit more. Sometimes its not caused by a deliberate political conspiracy of Zionist discrimination. In fact the Arab areas of East Jerusalem are pretty much completely self ruled and the only role Israel has is with security. A lot of time the issues are between Israeli Arabs or between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians as well.