Hydraboss

There are lines running east from Alberta, but the majority are gathering lines (small diameter). The whole idea of the Alliance was to move "lots" of oil south in one main collector line in exchange for the US sending a predetermined amount north to eastern Canada. Cross-Canada lines exist, but no one has the capacity and therefore the maintenance cost, etc are ridiculous. And I thought Ontario didn't need Alberta's oil? Dependant on us? Time to raise the price.

Alberta has been producing power this way for a very long time. If they want to try to stop us, let them. Until they're prepared to, they can go bug someone else...

It's not pointless. It's our resource. Why reinvent it? Because we can. And it would iritate Ontario.

Molly, the pipeline to Sarnia is actually for natural gas not oil. Just wanted to clarify. Short of National Parks, there is really no "federal land" in Alberta. It's "crown land" and is under the jurisdiction of the province not the federal government. I agree with the environmental and lifestyle statement. If people from other parts of the country want to "go green" because of the "great and powerful global warming scandal", then they can choose where their power comes from. I suggest Kwebek because it's hydro. Stay away from Alberta's electricity...it's from dirty oil and coal. California will buy it. Canada's federal government need not apply or offer funds. We can do it by ourselves.

Why? It isn't a question of subsidization necessarily, but regional pricing. Most (not all) products have a variance in price depending on location so I am simply saying that Albertans should be able to purchase products made in their own province for less than others. In order to do this effectively (as in the case of gasoline) one would have to keep the "cross border" shopping to a minimum. The best way to do this is to increase the rate to everyone and credit back those that have an income tax return that proves they're Albertan. As was already said in this thread, Kwebek sells it's electricity to Kwebekers at a lower price. Why not Alberta? Why not Saskatchewan? edit: I just noticed your signature line. Now THAT I like.

Molly, exactly what pipeline would you like to shut down? Alberta controls the Alliance and the US certainly wouldn't want us to stop the flow. Eastern Canada receives it's supply (not all) from a pipeline coming up from the US. Want to shut that one down? The US would be thrilled as they would get to keep the product. The only reason they send it north is a reciprocal agreement that Alberta sends south and they send north. It's just cheaper than building another line from western Canada to eastern Canada. Go ahead. Turn the valve to the right.

Yes it is, but that only applies to selling out-of-country. As Machjo stated, the Alberta government has the right to sell for whatever price it decides to within Canada. It's not like Kwebek would give us a deal on hydro electricity.

Yes, there is more to energy than oil. There are four main sources in Canada. Nuclear, coal, hydro and oil/gas. Alberta has two. There is almost zero input or regulation required from the federal government. It is a matter of provincial jurisdiction and should remain that way. We have our own power grid along with our own source of generation. So do other provinces. If they don't, they can pay.

I have given my thoughts on this in the past. Alberta should raise the price of oil substantially. We have the right without wandering into a NAFTA challenge. This includes (specifically) eastern Canada, who uses it in places like Sarnia, Ont for refinement (DOW Chemical, Imperial, BP Canada). Canadian gas prices at $1.25? Raise them to $2.25, and then refund back to taxpaying Albertans on their provincal income tax.

Please, plleeeaaassseee let him say this a few more times in the national media. NES. NEP. No difference in the eyes of those of us who remember or those who have been told. Could not have asked for better.

I understand the reality of paying taxes very well. Perhaps more so than a great portion of Canadians. Never have I complained about paying them (I've complained lots about the amount of them like most Canadians). What fuels anger is not the paying of taxes, but the uneven distribution and contribution that my province makes for the rest of the "country". In effect, I (and many like me) pay far more than anyone in the east. Our money goes out, but little comes back. The harder I work, the more that someone in Kwebek gets without having to work for it. I could not care less if I tried. It actually makes me smile quite a bit. About time. Once again...I could not care less. I assure you, the contribution from my family's income is far, far greater than the vast majority of Canadians. This is not a boast; it is a fact. My personal contribution every month would make most people's mortgage payment and then some.

Yes, we're all technically Canadian but that only goes so far. When it's starts impacting the ability for little Jack or Jane to play hockey this year or for Mom to be able to drive the new Envoy, then it's all out war against whoever is taking the money off the paycheck. The core disagreement here, as you and others stated in another thread, is that people like me believe that when we work for a paycheck it's ours, whereas you and others believe that it belongs to all of the country. Until that basic belief is addressed, this type of battle will continue without end. The rest of the comments that follow with this type of conversation are simply semantics.

Our oil is not dependant on anything in the east. The Alliance pipeline goes south and then east, and if Canada doesn't buy it, America will gladly use it up. The "dirty oil" BS doesn't mean a thing when gas goes from $1.99 in Washington State to $3.50 a gallon. They couldn't care less where the product comes from, as long as it keeps coming. There are more than enough industries and vehicles in the States to use up every last drop of oil we produce. California alone would gladly purchase every single last CF of natural gas we produce as well, and that would just be to run their air conditioners. Alberta does not need to rely on a damn thing from eastern Canada. Neither does BC. Neither does Saskatchewan. Without us you'd be hurting. Not the other way around.

When I worked for a huge multi-national based out of Texas (O&G), even THEY didn't understand what break-up was. I had to drive around in the Chinchaga (Northwestern Alberta) with their head engineer for a week before he realized why rig counts drop at that time. The company that I work for just laid off about another 1300 workers (approx. 600 are in our drilling-related divisions) and when things pick up in late May or June, they'll be back. The extreme resentment in Alberta for the east is quite real. Depends when you ask and what the person's financial status happens to be. There are so many non-Albertans working in this province that it's hard to get a true picture, but when you've lived here all your life and "the east" takes a huge portion of the paycheck that's meant for your family and gives it to another province - then you'll see resentment if not true hatred surface. The non-Albertan workers tend to be the first ones laid off, and if they haven't made the choice to move here (families and all) then they're actually just travelling workers that go back home when they lose their jobs. The ones that have made the move hold no resentment towards the ROC (generally speaking) until finances hit the rocks. Then they'll even talk down about their home provinces being "leeches". The "polls" that were held are accurate only so far as the time and place they were held. Was everyone working when asked the questions? The hatred is not for people, it's for areas of the country that take out money and the government that gave it to them. Personally, I don't know enough people currently living in the east to have made a decision on whether of not I love them, hate them or anything else. I do, however, have an absolute disgust for the province of Kwebek and their financial take-take-take attitude. This is all about money. Why do people from all over the country move to Alberta? Because we have the best weather? Because they want to be sent up north to live in a camp in the Birch Mountain Project? Bitscho Lake project? They like living in a buddy's basement for three years? No. They move here for money to better their lives and the lives of their families. It's all good until someone takes that money. Whether or not you choose to believe it, that "resentment" you sense, hear and read about is reality. You probably wouldn't see it too much on a one week trip, but it's alive and well. You think I'm "extreme"? I'm normal in the majority of coffee rooms in this province (the NDP city of Edmonton exempted). Just stroll in and mention that the feds are increasing equalization payments from Alberta to wherever, and watch the anger get real big, real quick.

I used to love those bikes back in the 80's. They're so cute when they're that size...

Employer already did the math (for salary purposes) and it's amazing how much less I pay (net - my portion) for top-notch coverage compared to the tax reduction of leaving Canada. I have the option of continuing Alberta Health Care as long as I maintain ex-pat status and return to Alberta at least every six months for a short time. HMO for our family with everything is $485/month with co-pay. When you compare that to the income tax savings for my wife and I, it's a drop in the bucket.

If the CHT is per capita for "have not" provinces, why does Alberta receive it? Why are we even on the chart under "Per Capita"?

You're bang on with Harley. It was mainly their Financial division that got them in a world of crap (very similar to the sub-prime issue). They were approving far too many people that should never have qualified. I paid cash for both of mine and I'm glad I did when I did. HD is announcing lay-offs and I don't think they've hit bottom yet. They have begun to cut production, raise prices and have already applied for federal funds should they need them. Good thing too. They're much too hard to ride when you're dead.

I am remarkably "loyal" to Alberta, but I cannot stand by and watch it go down the drain with the rest of Canada. Better to leave it than to have to watch it die slowly. As for Canada, it can kiss my ass.

Smallc, I see that you're right. Equalization is paid on a per capita basis. And, oh, what an equitable system it is (kind of like Health Transfers). Alberta - $508 per capita Everywhere else - $more

So equalization isn't about ensuring that all Canadians have access to the same basic services at comparable tax rates (as you said), it's about "sharing the wealth". Glad we cleared that up. Ontario will be especially happy to grab $347 million of "shared wealth" this year because, as we all know, the province is a "one trick pony with an economy based on a couple of auto manufacturers and not much else".

So you're offering to pay the extra $20,000 that people in other parts of the country aren't required to pay? Excellent. As for love it or leave it, as soon as my employer signs that little "sponsor" form, I'm gone. US bound. Unfortunately, time runs slow on the US-Canada work visa application process.

Only I get to add $20,000 to my tax bill (in real money) and you get to deduct a certain amount (due to federal benefits in). Well then, why don't you pay my additional share? Should we contact the feds and make the arrangements? What do you say? So now your paycheck is a resource that collectively belongs to all of us? Okay comrade. One other note: According to your beloved federal documents, the resources of Alberta belong to Alberta. Not all of "us". Yes, as a matter of fact. I earned it, not you. Nor anyone else in this wannabe "country". If you want communism, move to a communist country. I have no doubt you'd "whine like a jet engine" if you were in my place. Of course you'll deny it because you're not, and prattle on about "the resources of Canada".

So because my wife and I make more than people in other parts of the country, that gives the feds the right to take more of my money than yours? Call it what it is....a higher federal tax rate for Albertans. If people are unemployed in other parts of the country and refuse to move, it's just tickity-boo for them to steal my hard-earned money to keep them in "the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed"? Were we married at some point that I don't remember?

You and I can disagree on this all year long. I have no delusions that Alberta will remain part of Canada, but a man can dream, can't he? This country was never founded on "equalization". Never. If people in PEI need and want (rightfully so) the same BASIC services as the rest of Canada and don't feel like paying 98% of their salaries in taxes to support it........move. They have the right to mobility. I hire them all the time. Where this becomes a problem is when the taxpaying public has to pay for these people because they WANT to stay where they are by choice. The basic fundamental belief of people like me is we will help out, but we will not continually support your lazy ass. I wouldn't do it for my kids, so why should I do it for someone else's? A county with actual pride (like the US or Italy) is about people. Canada's only symbol of patriotism is "Roll Up the Rim".