betsy

The Sumerians lived in Mesopotamia... LOL Ancient Sumerians A site about religious tolerance... Earth History (ancient) Secrets of Sumer Its not irrelevant. Those men who wrote your bible simply copied (bastardized actually) older texts in their primitive effort to explain life... LOL Another one for yah... You don't have to go to Meospotamia to see flood mythology. Virtually every primitive culture has had the "great flood" mythology. Also pestilence and plagues. These are actual events that occurred in the time of these peoples. Most didn't keep historical records, so stories from their elders seem like ancient history. The difference is the interpretations of these events. What caused them. Do they believe the flood was the result of the gods urinating from above? Or is there a more sophisticated cause such as the events described in our Bible? Whether you believe in either one is of little concern to anyone. Oh and btw, I've read all the ancient history 101 texts.

As and atheist/agnostic person, I can tell you there is no seperation of church and state. I was brought up with out religion, but was taught good morals and respect for others. Religion cannot teach me anything my parents have not already taught me. Athiests should know the seperation better. Everywhere I go, relgion is there, news, media, government, big buisiness, ect. So to say we are bigoted (maybe only to others who shove a religion on us) and ranting fanatics, (see any member of parliment in any country) is shortsightedness and ignorant of you. GostHacked, I said "There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot." That's not even close to saying that all atheists are bigots, or fanatics, or ranters. I'm not talking about all atheist. I'm talking about ranting bigoted atheists. Surely you're not suggesting there are none of those. I have many friends who are atheists, if you'll excuse the cliche' and all of them are fine moral people. (if you have any friends at all in this day and age, it will be difficult not to have at least some atheist friends. LOL.) Morality is not exclusive to Christians. Nobody is suggesting that. But I believe that morality is derived from the Words of God (the Ten Commandments, etc.,) That you don't believe in God does not alter the fact that your moral standards don't derive from the same source as mine. Unless of course you're a member of the modern atheist secular society that imagines morality comes from within the Self. That moral relativism is not a standard at all. It's just: I'll do what I want.

Did you know that the original and true story of creation in the Hebrew Bible was adapted from mesopotamian sources? That the seven days of creation ( on the first day God created heaven and earth) correspond to seven babyloinian gods? The syncretic truth is, we can only hope that our truth is better than their truth but more likely we aren't particulaly close to the truth at all. That is interesting and I'm not a scholar on ancient cultures. I wish I knew more. I am aware, however that all cultures in history, and from what we've been able to gather in pre-history as well, have developed their own mythology as an effort to explain their world. As time goes by we've naturally evolved into more sophisticated explanations. It's enormously interesting and involved area....mythology is. That having been said, the Christian religion goes beyond the simple mythologies of mankind....while God gave prehistoric and early man the ability to rationalize his own position in his environment, probably originally to alleviate fear, the Word of God through the Hebrew Bible and the Coming Of Christ clarified for humankind the truth of the Creation and man's purpose on earth. I don't want it to seem that I think it can be explained in a paragraph. Suffice it to say, as a Christian I believe that the Word of God explains to us what previously was only imagined in mythology. But that's not what we're talking about here. I'm just simply refuting the nonsense that Allah is our god! Allah is the god of Islam....and Islam should not be compared to Christianity in a favorable way.

What's the Summerians got to do with it? That's irrelevant! I said, The Muslims copied it from the Hebrew Bible. That the Summerians got a creation story got nothing to do with it. Like I said, who didn't? No, no,no. You got it wrong, girl...just like they do! They're praying to my God but just got His name wrong. Furthermore, that's not the only name they got wrong! Mohamed was really Moe and Ed. They lived together in the early 7th century AD. One was an Arab and one was a Jew. Moe got mad and left Ed. And started Islam. That was the great schism in Judeo-Arab relations. The Jews continued, inspite of Ed, but Moe couldn't face it. He even had to take Ed's name. Now you know him as Mo-ham-Ed. Makes no more sense than your stories. Does it?

Did you know that the story of Allah and the "creation" were adapted from the original and true story of the Creator from the Hebrew Bible (which of course is part of the Christian Bible, although I'd put money on the fact that you didn't know that), by the Muslims in the 7th Century? It must be copycatstevens. Anyway, so what! What tribe doesn't have a creation story! Even liberals think Canada was created at the time of Trudeau! Of course liberal's history doesn't go back beyond their own grandfathers, who they believe were Adam and Evan. LOL!

as this thread is about religion, lets stick to that shall we? And what do you think this is? Not religion???? LOL! "MCC president and founder get another death threat Extremist says, "I will slaughter all of you" An extremist, swearing in the name of Allah, has threatened MCC president Farzana Hassan and founder Tarek Fatah, promising to "slaughter" them along with all members of the Muslim Canadian Congress. Toronto Police are investigating the death threat, which was left as a message on the telephone of MCC secretary general, Munir Pervaiz. Here is the full text of the warning: "This is a warning to Tarek Fatah and Farzana Hassan and to all the members of your Munafiq (Apostate) organization. Wa Allah al-Azeem (In the name of God who is great), I swear… on all 99 names of Allah, if you do not cease from your campaign of smearing Islam...Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, (by God, by God, by God), I will slaughter all of you." Click here to listen to the actual recording of the death threat If you recognize the voice on this threatening phone message, please contact Toronto Police, 51 Division, at (416) 808-5100 http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/ THIS is the religion that you actually are referring to, Drea! Yet you continuously to deftly flip your flop, targetting the wrong group at every opportunity you get! Your irrational tirade against Christian religion which tantamounts to no more than just plain christian-bashing squashed whatever credibility you have to say when it comes to RELIGION, WOMEN's RIGHTS, and OPPRESSION! Why should we take your opinion (and Catchme's words of wisdom), seriously...and not tongue-in-cheek? At least we've got some comic relief...if it's any consolation for us whose time had been wasted reading your barbs. Lol. You're just one extremist waging a bigoted war against Christians!

Oh no, you can't just squirm out of it.... he-he-he Sorry to disappoint you Ms Dominionist (is that your new handle btw?), but it ain't no myth, hon. Tadaaaaa! "MCC president and founder get another death threat Extremist says, "I will slaughter all of you" An extremist, swearing in the name of Allah, has threatened MCC president Farzana Hassan and founder Tarek Fatah, promising to "slaughter" them along with all members of the Muslim Canadian Congress. Toronto Police are investigating the death threat, which was left as a message on the telephone of MCC secretary general, Munir Pervaiz. Here is the full text of the warning: "This is a warning to Tarek Fatah and Farzana Hassan and to all the members of your Munafiq (Apostate) organization. Wa Allah al-Azeem (In the name of God who is great), I swear… on all 99 names of Allah, if you do not cease from your campaign of smearing Islam...Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, Wa Allahi, (by God, by God, by God), I will slaughter all of you." Click here to listen to the actual recording of the death threat If you recognize the voice on this threatening phone message, please contact Toronto Police, 51 Division, at (416) 808-5100 http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

What edit? I quoted your whole statement but highlighted the offending parts. Even if you read it as a whole, the message is still the same! Of course, you don't understand that! And it's not just your message...it's also the tone! The nerve to say that as a woman I cannot say what I think of men! Or anybody else for that matter! Edited: I'm back. Well, about the Muslim women in Canada, believe me that's no myth. It was in the news not too long ago (maybe 3 months or so)...and somebody posted a copy of that threat letter. I think it was Kimmy (not sure). Anyway, I haven't the time to search for it. So, let's skip that then. But what about the plight of the Indo-Canadian women (also in the news). Actually I've given you that very same thing in another thread (I think somewhere in the Kissing thread). Since somehow these two threads touches on the same argument....so I ask you about it again. Edited (again!): Here! This one! http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...1103?hub=Canada

as this thread is about religion, lets stick to that shall we? And you've just explained how stupid religion is (and unknowingly how woman ARE oppressed LOL) -- women being stoned etc. Shameful, pathetic human beings would do this to one another in the name of an invisible entity that may or may not exist. Simply pathetic IMO. Stalking my foot! Let's face it, whether we're talking religion or women's rights....you're bringing the same baloney reasonings into the topic at hand. Same cookie-cutter responses. Another Example: Catchme's "Dominionist" that I see littering various topics! So don't give me that bull! And your response is typical. Sweeping statement without thinking again! I'd say yes, some religion are stupid and some religion really oppress women (treating them like chatels and no different than a goat...in this day and age!). By mentioning "stoning and oppression of women", what you are actually saying is the Islamic religion is stupid. And some other religions (which I can't think of at this moment) that burns or maim etc.., So never mind this sweeping statement...you know what you actually want to say, but you just don't want to say it. You don't want to be precise because you are biased!

Nah! I'm done with you in that discussion (21st Century Male Role). Your last two demand only proved clearly why talking to you in that topic was a waste of time: you don't even have a clue what the discussion was all about! Your demand was already given somewhere in that thread! But of course, you didn't recognize it! Well that's not my problem anymore! What can I say? If you don't get it, you don't get it! LOL You are exactly like "the other"....moulded and baked from the same cookie-cutter, like a lot of other women who got duped and so easily brainwashed by the rad. fem. Why? Simply because you don't THINK! You both don't seem to understand what you are supposed to be fighting for! Especially you! I expected more from you! If you do understand what you are fighting for, heck you'd be on Catchme like a rabid starving flea on a dog! For telling me that "as a woman I had no right to say what I think!" LOL! Hell, there's too much confusion in this world already....and I surely don't want to get dragged by you into that! There is no discussion with someone who just automatically answers everything by spouting off the same mantra....chanting the same incantations. Anyway, enough. So now you know why I'm done with you in that topic. Kaput. But my question to you here is legit. Because you've made this statement: So I ask, what do you say to this? "Indo-Canadian women in B.C. gathered together this week for a ground-breaking forum on domestic abuse, sharing stories about a cycle of violence often kept hidden behind closed doors. The forum was prompted by a rash of violence against South Asian women in recent weeks. He said there is a deep rooted inequity ingrained in South Asian culture that needs to be addressed. Quite simply, women and men are not treated equally -- he cited the dowry system, where women are treated almost as property, as an example." http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...1103?hub=Canada And the recent issue of Muslim women in Canada being threatened by Taliban members/supporters (also here in Canada) of violence and death, if these women don't follow the strict rules of their religion...and continue to pursue the freedom available to all women in Canada. This is not just some "swooping kiss!" Anyway, if you can't wear shorts in Iran....why should they wear bourquas in Canada? So get back to the REAL ISSUE now and let us know what your opinion is about this.

"He got out of his seat, and responded angrily" maybe because the woman flight attendant, was being rude? presumptious? Whether the flight attendant was being rude or presumptous....or maybe the attendant was just envious....or having her mood swing...or just plainly being cranky....or obnoxious.....etc...these are all just assumptions you make of the scenario. That "he got out of his seat, and responded angrily" is a fact (that is based on the news account you've relayed to us). From here we can assume that maybe the man made a threatening gesture when he got up....abusive language...threatening words....his reaction made passengers really agitated, not to mention the attendant...etc. But then that's just what these are: assumptions. They'll sort that out later....during investigations. But the man did cause a public disturbance. So like Sharkman, I agree that it's his unwillingness to adhere to rules and his actions, that got this man into trouble!

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist. Yep! True!Atheism is a religion - it's a polytheistic religion. The gods of atheists are the Self. Each atheist sees himself as a universe unto himself. There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot who doesn't have an inkling of the importance, let alone the meaning of the separation of state and church. *clap* *clap* *clap* WTG betsy, you go girl, keep on setting up that emotional straw man discription of what you believe an atheist to be, or at least spoon fed pap, about what they are supposed to be...And to say they do not know the impotance of separation of church and state, nor the meaning of it. Well, that is even a bigger strawman that you built to kick down. You provide no evidence, no substantive example, no juxposition, well, no anything actually, and yet you want to people to just suck it up as if it is the truth, because you say so. And to boot you label them as bigots, all the while espousing absolute bigotry erroneous strawmen perspectives. Like as if I need evidence to express an opinion. Especially following such utter nonsense coming from the clones? LOL! Anyway, I edited the other post above. You should go take a look...

So what about these Muslim women in Canada, who claim to have been threatened by Taliban members/supporters with violence (including death) if they insist on practicing their freedom? That whether these women like it or not, they are bound by the strict rules of their religion! So where do our feminist poster duo and ranting Christian-bashing twins stand on this issue? They seem to be bent on spewing their venom this way when in fact their help is desperately needed that way. Edited: Baloney! Catchme, if you slowly read what I wrote and try your darndest to understand....those muslim women I mentioned above are right here in Canada. And yes, they're talking beheading! And what about the Indo-Canadian women I mentioned in the previous post? Yeah...yeah...you can say "well they didn't cut their hands"....but I'd re-butt and say burning you and stabbing you to death is one deadly capital punishment. No matter what, the outcome is being dead! LOL! Never mind "negative and harm to body parts." LOL! Well I'll say it again, being sisterly and all you know....THINK,GIRL! Watch what comes out of that mouth!

You don't know how arrogant it is to proclaim there is a God without any credible proof, do you? Nobody can prove the existence or non-existence of God!

Really? What was all that stuff about animism and the great spirit and stuff? Not to mention immigrants from India bringing their culture/religion into Canada - abusing and even murdering their women! How, I wonder would Drea respond to that....being a feminist and all! "Indo-Canadian women in B.C. gathered together this week for a ground-breaking forum on domestic abuse, sharing stories about a cycle of violence often kept hidden behind closed doors. The forum was prompted by a rash of violence against South Asian women in recent weeks. He said there is a deep rooted inequity ingrained in South Asian culture that needs to be addressed. Quite simply, women and men are not treated equally -- he cited the dowry system, where women are treated almost as property, as an example." http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...1103?hub=Canada

The separation of church and state was a founding tenet of the U.S. constitution, written up in part by Christians who saw the faults of the British Government, and wanted none of the same. why should you, an athiest, have any idea at all where theism belongs. Hey, aren't you the one who said that religious extremists should have their tongues removed and their hands mutilated? That makes YOU and extremist. Yep! True! Atheism is a religion - it's a polytheistic religion. The gods of atheists are the Self. Each atheist sees himself as a universe unto himself. There's no greater fanatic than a ranting atheist bigot who doesn't have an inkling of the importance, let alone the meaning of the separation of state and church.

Kuzadd and Guyser, I don't want to get into the marriage debate...I've been in a lot of it in this forum, and I'm just sickand tired of it. Everything I have to say about it had been said numerous times in those debates. The only reason I mentioned it was to point out to Kuzadd that indeed, she also made assumptions about me.

Did I mention gun control? You did. But to be honest, I was surprised to hear you don't approve of the gun registry. So yes, that part would've been "assumptions". Which you also do, assuming my "bias on SSM lies in my religious belief and indoctrination." But you see, I've always maintained in this board from other gay-related threads that it is not for me to judge about the sins of others. That is for God. My resentment towards SSM is not about the union of homosexuals, but the changing of the traditional definition of marriage. I've also pointed out that there was a group of homosexuals who had taken out an ad, opposing this change and had expressed support for upholding the true definition of marriage! I salute those folks! I guess they understood only too well the importance of this definition to a lot of people. There wouldn't be so much open resentment now if gays had only decided to coin their own word for such a union, acknowledging with grace and fairness that the word "marriage" is already taken. That is only common sense to me.

Kuzadd said: "I support women's rights as equals, not necessarily the 'feminist movement'" Mind you, a lot of liberals say the same thing. "I support a woman's right to choose, what goes on with her OWN body, not determined by men." - Yep. Abortion. "I am pro-peace. If I could think of a necessary reason for war from an ethical standpoint, I might even be pro-war, but since wars are fought for control of other people's lands, resources , etc., inc. WW2. " - Who isn't pro-peace among us here, I wonder? If there are no Hitlers or countries like Japan who started invading other neighboring countries? Unless you clarify what exactly you're saying....your statement is plain rubbish! Yep. Anti-war. Afghanistan and Iraq. "Bush is irrelevant to me, so I am NOT anti-bush, but you'll assume nonetheless I am. Example, I did not support intervention in Kosovo, so that must make me anti-Clinton?? "- Oh, it must be Bush's being a Christian then! Silly me! "I DO NOT think to quote your absolute nonsense "Jews had it coming". I think the Jews, along with the Gypsies, homsexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, mentally handicapped were used as scapegoats, to justify all sorts of nonsense. As we see Arab/ Muslims being used now." Yeah? I must've mistaken you for someone else....for I could swear you were on the Palestinians' side and vilifying Israel for protecting itself! "I accept SSM, because it is not my place to decide ,on what two consenting, loving adults, can do, to marry or not. As it is not my place to decide what two consenting heterosexual adults can do also. To marry or not. As consenting adults, they can decide, if they wish to marry or not. They are consenting and they are adults." Well, that's a liberal thinking. "I do not advocate for gun control, either." You don't approve of the gun registry? Yeah, I forgot about that. And the environment too....Kyoto! Do you support Kyoto? I bet you dooooo..... But the key things that liberal thinkers support....you support or condone. But then, there's nothing wrong about that...because that's your belief. You see things differently from me...is all. But reallllly....this Satan issue??? C'mon. It's laughable! It's like listening to 13 year olds trying to win a discussion! Seriously.

All I did was give what I think is the definition of a liberal-thinker. Are you saying there's something shameful about liberal beliefs? That to enumerate what they are is actually an insult? Abusive? Strange....hmmm....I suppose you're a liberal. Lol!

Canada is comprimised of Canadians, that's what makes it Canada. All people who live here, and are born here- or become Canadians, are Canadians. This is a simple fact. I do not know what point you are attemting to make, with quoted statement?? "Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!" Therefore you agree, we should scrap multiculturalism....since it's only fostering division and encouraging segregation! Because it is (to use your word), "COMPARTMENTALIZING" people into various groups! Right?

Now, now, now....when I said "liberal", I didn't mean the Liberal Party. Why do I think you are a liberal thinker? Hmmmm ....Let me see... 1. you support the feminist movement. In fact we had a go at it in another thread (21st Century Male Role). So I know I'm not just imagining that. 2. you therefore support abortion. Am I wrong? I doubt it. 3. you are anti-war. Afghanistan and Iraq....am I wrong? I doubt it. 4. you are anti-Bush. 5. you most probably think the Jews had it coming. 6. you advocate SSM. Those are just the things I can think of at this moment. Well Kuzadd....you know, "if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck....blah-blah-blah!" What impression am I supposed to have about you??? Okay. If you're not a liberal, what are you then???

Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS! You agree that multiculturalism is only making matters worse....fostering division and segregation! Right?

What do you mean by "compartmentalize?" Do you mean identities by groups? by culture? by gender? by sexual orientation? Isn't that what Canada is all about? I'm just trying to be a "true" present-day Canadian....reaching out to you liberal folks who had advocated and encouraged these....divisions. Clarify what you mean!

I have to try very hard not to get angry when I read posts like this. Why does a simple question like this make you angry?