dialamah

My "support" for burkas stops at "We don't have the right to dictate to women what they can wear; even if we did, it is not the least bit helpful to women who really are being abused and forced to wear it." I have stated clearly and multiple times that I personally don't like the burka.

They are your words - in all of those news stories, your reaction is "This is what Islam teaches them to do. We don't want these kinds of people in Canada." No benefit of the doubt, no acknowledgement that maybe there's more to it than just "Islam", or that maybe even in some cases, they might not be Muslim at all, but a rare Christian from the same region. Remember that family that was featured on a news story? Girl is going to school, has plans for an education that will provide a good living. Dad is looking for work, but hasn't found any yet. Your assumptions: Girl will be married when still a teenager, and won't be allowed to finish education; Dad's not interested in working, just wants to take advantage of Canadian generosity; Dad is controlling the women (presumably violently); Dad is teaching sons to control women, and to take advantage of Canadian system. You made all those assumptions based only on the fact that they were Muslim, and that the females were wearing hijab. And when I objected to those assumptions, you told me I was wrong, that I was an "apologist" for a misogynistic religion, that my family was so extremely unusual in having their female family members well-educated, because Muslims just don't think women were important beyond baby-making and being oppressed. Instead of supporting a girl with dreams, you put her and her family down only because they are Muslim. Don't flatter yourself that you are the least bit open-minded when it comes to Muslims.

How rare is it, Goddess? It's generally thought that approximately 1.6% of the population identifies as homosexual, and that holds true across all human societies. What percentage of the population of these Islamic countries is in jail for homosexuality? Let's take Egypt as an example; it has a population of about 97 million people. If we cautiously estimate that 1% of that population is gay, there should be close to 970,000 gay people in Egypt. Let's suppose that 50% of those gay people have family and friends that know - that's 485,000 people who will probably be turned in to the authorities, beaten or killed. How many people are in jail for homosexuality in Egypt? That's hard to figure out, but the total population of Egyptian jails is around 106,000. So even if all of them were jailed for homosexuality, there's still 379,000 people available for beating/killing in Egypt. Even if you cut it down to 25% of people being brave enough to come out to family/friends, that's still 160,000 people at risk at any given time in Egypt. Now, I can't determine from the information I can access whether or not 379,000 or 160,000 people were murdered or beaten for being gay; I have no doubt some where, and probably significantly more than would be in a Western country. But I think the protection/tolerance of gay people is a lot less rare than you assume. You only assume it's rare because you only hear about and pay attention to news stories about gays who do suffer mistreatment, whether by the State or by family/friends. Oh, and here's a story about a Christian girl who was killed by her family because she brought shame for dating a Muslim boy. I know you'll think that's rare too - "That's not part of Christianity". Unfortunately, honor killings in the region are cultural more than religious. I expect that the same would be true of mistreatment of homosexuals, although I'm not going to go research it. Disabusing you of your ignorance isn't really my job, after all. Besides, if you really cared about women, misogyny and homophobia among people from this region, you'd already know this stuff and you wouldn't be here doing everything you can to prove to us all how evil and bad Muslims are. Just think I'd like to mention that Islam is a religion that supports misogyny through the Quran, and homophobia through it's Hadiths; Christianity is no different. In the Middle East and in North Africa, religion holds a lot more power over people - especially uneducated and poor people - and it doesn't really matter what the religion is. It is education, wealth and time that will eliminate these things.

Not a lie, then eh? You do support limiting of what people can wear.

It's not that I'm pathetic; it's that you cannot stop yourself from painting all Muslims with the same brush - if one murders a schoolgirl, well they'll all murder schoolgirls because "Islam". If one exposes himself in a swimming pool, well they'll all expose themselves because "Islam". If extremists throw a gay person of a rooftop, then Muslims want to kill gays. Do you know that Middle Eastern and African men often hold hands? And that African men will engage in gay relations, but consider themselves heterosexual? Or that disapproval of homosexuality and punishment for it actually became entrenched in the Middle East while they were occupied by the British? That the Ottoman empire declared gay sex legal in 1858, but that was changed as a result of Christianity's influence? Did you know that Mohammed invited "third gender" people into his home, or that there are many stories of love stories between both men and women in Arab/Muslim culture, dating from the 10th century? The issue of homosexuality in Islamic countries is a lot more interesting and nuanced than "Muslims must kill gays because Islam demands it". You really can't read, can you. Why, just in my very last post I quoted you saying: "They are abused, threatened and tortured by their family and friends. They are jailed and lashed unmercifully. They are killed by their families. " And I responded with "True". From that, you get that I think gays in these Islamic countries are treated no differently than gays in Western countries. Amazing! Do you lie this much to your friends and family, or is it just us on this board that are treated to your alternate version of reality?

There might not be punishment spelled out in Quran, or whatever, but it is very true that too many Islamic countries punish gay people. Not a lie; the Quran does not address homosexuality at all. States that have punishments for homosexuality use certain Hadiths. Perhaps Marocc rejects the Hadiths that detail punishment for Quran - who knows? Oh wait - you know, right? All Muslims hate homosexuals and will kill them if given a chance. I forgot you are an "expert" (snicker) on Islam, so you know what they all think, believe and how they will all behave.

I didn't say that. Can't you read? True. They are also ignored, tolerated and even hidden by family and friends. Perhaps you need to educate yourself on both sides of the issue, instead of just one. I look at the source of these stories, namely you, and guess that at the least its overstated, probably exaggerated or possibly an outright lie. But I did a quick search anyway, just to see what I might have been missing - and found a story about two couples being attacked during Pride in August of 2019. Neither of the attackers were identified as Muslim. I couldn't find much else, other than some discussion about a rise of anti-immigrant, anti-gay, nationalistic and populist sentiment. Of course, I skipped the actual propaganda websites, relying instead sources that present facts with minimal 'emotional' bias; no doubt that was my "mistake", as far as you are concerned. Does this mean I also think that Muslims never beat up on gays, even in Western countries? Nope, not at all. But if one news stories involving two couples becomes "Muslims are attacking gay people daily" that's propaganda. Yes, I've already noted that capital punishment or being jailed for being gay is most common in Muslim-majority countries. This is why I have the idea that Muslims think the government should be punishing gays, not citizens. Why are you endlessly repeating stuff I've already acknowledged? It's not like I disagree with you. You blame Islam for some guy shooting up a gay nightclub. Maybe that's legit; on the other hand, maybe it's not. To my mind, he's not any different than a non-Muslim guy shooting up a movie theatre, or shooting into an LA concert from a hotel room. Or any number of non-Muslim teenage boys shooting up a school. None of those killers say anything about the millions of Muslims or non-Muslims who don't kill anyone, regardless of their personal feelings. The vast majority of people, regardless of religion or race or ethnicity or country of origin to not murder, rape, torture or kill anyone. If you are so worried about the "personal safety" of people, you're better off addressing the social issues that lead to this murder, rape and torture, rather than focusing whether or not it was a Muslim committing the crime. I've called such behavior "murder" and note that it's illegal in the lands where it's been done. I support these weird things like "laws" to address terrorism, rape, murder, etc., along with not "innocent till proven guilty" value, even when it's a Muslim person. I completely fail to assume a women in a hijab is either a victim or a fanatic, or that a man from Pakistan is itching to kill himself some gays/beat up women. You are the one who gets all excited about denying people the right to wear certain clothing and about judging Muslims as guilty before they've even done anything - that they are Muslim is enough for you to assume guilt or at least guilty intent - that's what I'd call "throwing actual human rights under the bus". Calling people out on their Islamophobia isn't the same as 'defending' Islamic fundamentalism. But I understand you have to pretend I'm defending Islam, otherwise you might have to face your own ugly and demeaning attitudes towards Muslims.

The one I'm most familiar with is that they are 'taking over' - monetary systems, the government, the world with a 'secret agenda'. Part of that agenda is to flood the US/the West with foreigners. When there was a caravan of SA migrants heading to the States a while ago, some guy decided to kill him some Jews because he believed they were behind this migrant caravan. Similar claims are made against Muslims, I've seen it here many times.

The nuance in those reports means that the claim "90%" of Muslims support death for adultery, blasphemy and apostasy is exaggerated, as we've discussed before. Misrepresenting a poll to make Muslims look worse than they are is one of the things I object to and consider propaganda and fear-mongering. Even so, it's a valid point that these kinds of beliefs are pretty common in Muslim majority countries and should be condemned. I condemn those ideas, just as you do. The question is - does this mean that Muslims generally pose a particular risk to Canada and Canadians? I do not think so, for the following reasons: Muslims expect their government to carry out these punishments, since murder is forbidden; Along with praying 5 times a day and doing good works, Muslims are instructed to obey the laws of the land in which they live; Very few Muslims think Sharia or Sharia punishments should apply to non-Muslims; Immigrants tend to be more open, social, and less tied to custom and family than non-migrants; The people we are getting from these countries are self-selecting for being open to new experiences, more accepting of differences, more tolerant, less tied to custom and tradition than the people they leave at home. And in saying this, I'm not claiming they magically become "progressive" when they cross the Canadian border; I'm saying that even though they are generally more conservative-thinking than Canadians, they aren't actually the extremists you like to portray them as. I am speaking specifically of Muslims in Western countries, as I thought you were when you started talking about importing flaming refrigerators. The vast majority of Islamic terror attacks take place in the Middle East against Muslims and that has been decreasing since 2014, when ISIS began to lose ground. From "Our World in Data": Seeing a someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and figuring they are a biker is reasonable and realistic. Seeing someone in a Hell's Angel jacket and assuming they are a murderer is neither reasonable nor realistic. Seeing someone in a hijab and assuming they are Muslim would be reasonable and realistic. Seeing someone in a hijab and assuming they are 1. a victim of a fanatic who wants to kill gays, apostates, stone adulterers and force Sharia law on everyone or 2. a fanatic in their own right, is unrealistic and Islamophobic.

Refrigerators, eh? Ok, so I suppose what I'd start with is finding out if the "1 out of 3" was true. I'd find out it wasn't - it was really more like 3 out of a million. I'd also notice that while the brand in question got lots of news coverage in other countries, the tendency to 'burst into flame' in Canada and other western countries was almost non-existent - perhaps the importation standards had something to do with that. Than I'd look to see if Canadian-made or western-made refrigerators were any more or less likely to burst into flame. And I'd see that while the reasons for the flames might be different, Canadian and western-made refrigerators could also burst into flame. I might also notice that the foreign-made refrigerators operated a little differently than Canadian or western made ones - but they still kept the food fresh and didn't actually burst into flame nearly as often as claimed. I'd likely conclude that the risk inherent in refrigerators was about the same, regardless of where they came from. I might be curious about the idea being spread that certain brands of refrigerators were inherently more dangerous than other brands, even though the evidence was lacking. I'd discover that the 'danger' of foreign refrigerators was spread and amplified by certain organizations and people who didn't want foreign refrigerators. I'd find out that they'd exaggerate and even lie about the foreign refrigerators that blew up, and that if one foreign refrigerator blew up, they'd immediately claim that all similar refrigerators were likely to blow up. If a Canadian or western-made refrigerator blew up, however, they'd claim it was an aberration, or different because "the reason was different", or "expected, because you know - refrigerators blow up sometimes." I suppose if the "no foreign refrigerator" people didn't exaggerate and even lie so much, but instead were reasonable and rational in their objections, it would be a different conversation. Also, we are talking about people here, not refrigerators. I don't really care if we bring in more or less people from the countries you love to hate; I do care that they be treated with respect when they arrive. I care that innocent people - who come to Canada because of it's freedoms and a chance to escape oppressive regimes - aren't tarred with the same brush as extremists and fanatics. You, for instance - if you saw my neighbor out and about you'd consider her a 'fanatic'. You'd not know that she could care less about the stuff you claim Muslims hate, in 'Western society'. You'd not know that she and her family celebrate Christmas "because we're in Canada now, and that's what Canadians do". You'd not know that she loves the lack of "rules" here, that she embraces the freedoms Canadians have. You'd not know that when I showed her the "woman only" swimming times at the pool in case she'd be more comfortable there, she shook her head and said - "I don't care about that", or that when I asked her how strict her husband was (because she wears hijab at his request), she said "Not strict at all - I can shake hands with men, you know, whatever, it's all ok. He's a really nice guy." You'd not care that in her history, she's exhibited a strength and conviction to fight against oppression that you could only dream about. You know why you'd neither know nor care? Because she wears hijab when she's out, and from that you'd assume she's a "fanatic" with views that are antithetical to western society. And that, for me, is a huge problem with people like you. You look at someone and you make assumptions - very negative assumptions - without knowing a single fucking thing about that person except what they look like. That is wrong. That is not a "Canadian value". And that is my objection to you and people like you.

No idea. It makes me pretty sad, though, that they're hated for no reason other than lies and propaganda.

I'll continue to respond to you here when you try to put forward the idea that everybody on this thread is only talking about "the bad ones", or that they aren't deliberately demonizing all Muslims as being just like the bad ones.

Then please ... the next time I post about some Muslim family or friend assert their disapproval of wife beating, forcing religion, forcing hijab/niqab, gay killing, murder in general and terrorism in particular, and Argus, DoP or Goddess jump in to tell me they are lying and don't really mean what they, perhaps you could explain to me just how they aren't accusing all Muslims of bad behavior and not "just the bad ones". I've acknowledged plenty of times that because Islam is a patriarchal and conservative religion, it is more prone to misogynistic and oppressive practices than a secular society. I have also acknowledged that Islamic terrorism is an issue, that anti-Semitism is an issue. I've acknowledged that FGM, honor killings and homophobia is an issue. But when I recognize some of these practices are more cultural than religious and Christians as well as Muslims and others behave similarly is unacceptable to certain people here - they continue to insist its just a Muslim thing. The people who work in those countries to eradicate these cruel practices tell us all the time its lack of education and poverty are more related to these specifically female-oppressive practices than religion. But of course, you Argus, DoP, Goddess ignore all of that - its much easier to accuse me of protecting "bad" people when I call out specifically anti-Muslim rhetoric on this thread.

I'm not lying about your agenda; your actions prove it daily. Also, I have no interest in proving Islam meritorious; it isn't. My interest is in calling out people who make the world a worse place by spreading misinformation, fear and hatred against Muslims - or anyone. Here, it just happens to be Muslims. Perhaps if i rewrote your posts, substituting Jews for Muslim, people would clue in.

This is only because you refuse to see the demonization Muslims as played out on this thread. I haven't seen anyone here argue that mosogyny, anti-semitism or terror is acceptable "because they're Muslim". I have seen people argue that painting all Muslims as the same as the worst of them is wrong. I have agreed with many posters here that Islam needs modernization, and pointed out that progressive Muslims exist and are working to make Islam more progressive, both in Western countries and in Muslim countries. I have said that Islam serms to be about 50 years behind Christianity in terms of modern progressiveness, that change is coming to Islam - albeit slowly. I've been attacked as an apologist for suggesting that change is happening and we should welcome, encourage and talk about that, instead of dismissing it as "not enough" or irrelevant. It really makes me angry when I point out, from my personal experience, Muslims who are tolerant of differences, condemn wife-beating, or killing gays/unbelievers only to be told that "they are lying, because Muslims lie to us to hide their true agenda". How is that not painting all Muslims with the same brush - even the "good" ones are lying about what they believe and will do, given the chance. But you just skip on past that stuff, and then vacuously say "oh but they are only talking about the "bad ones".

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I do not disagree entirely, I just don't really see a lot of difference between repressive regimes, whatever religion they're based on, or even if they're based on no religion at all. Blaming oppression/barbarity on Islam when there are current and hostorical examples of equally oppressive and barbaric behavior among non-Muslims seems to me to be completely illogical. Its the people here - Argus, Goddess, DoP and some others who specifically tar all Muslims with the same brush. They offer lip service to "not all Muslims", but they don't really mean it. DoP constantly tells us that Muslims must act violently against non-believers and apostates or they aren't following.the dictates of Islam. Any less violent interpretation of the Quran is met with denial. Even those verses speaking directly against violence he dismisses. Goddess takes every instance of a Muslim behaving badly as proof of the evil of all Muslims, and Argus regularly refers to Muslims as barbaric, ignorant, violent, misogynistic and unable to change. You seem to miss all this, but regularly challenge me when I call them put on their obvious hate and fear-mongering. You are unable and unwilling to differentiate propaganda from the truth. Argus, DoP and Goddess spread anti-Muslim propaganda. Otherwise they would not attack me, nor accuse me or my relatives of lying when I point out that while disapproval of gays, Jews, apostates, dressing scantily, premarital sex, whatever else, most of them aren't willing to take their disapproval to hatred and violence and disapprove of those who do. If they weren't interested in painting all Muslims as evil, they wouldn't attack me for pointing out that misogynistic practices are just as rampant among non-Muslims as among Muslims in the Middle East and Africa. Christians and Christian churches support plural marriage (for the man), FGM, honor killings, killing/jailing of gays. But god forbid that "truth" be discussed here because it might suggest that Muslims are just about the same as everyone else from that region and not a monolithic block of violent and barbaric killers.

Yes, Islamic extremists also attack Jews, and right wing extremists attack both Jews and Muslims. You can't claim one as a problem while dismissing the other. Two of my links below discuss anti-Semitism in Europe, from both Muslims and right-wingers. I highlight the right-wingers because otherwise you'll deny it. From the Atlantic, 2015: "Renewed vitriol among right-wing fascists and new threats from radicalized Islamists have created a crisis, confronting Jews with an agonizing choice" In Hungary, a leader of the right-wing Jobbik party called on the government ... to draw up a list of all the Jews in the country who might pose a “national-security risk.” In Greece, a recent survey found that 69 percent of adults hold anti-Semitic views, and the fascists of the country’s Golden Dawn party are open in their Jew-hatred." From DW, 2019: "Wednesday's attack on a synagogue and two passers-by in the area by a self-confessed far-right extremist in the east German city of Halle is just the tip of the iceberg." Most cases of anti-Semitic harassment were registered in Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium, according to the FRA. The EU agency registered the fewest such incidents in the UK, France and Italy. ... European anti-Semitism is the result of European societies becoming increasingly intolerant, adding that "there of course exists a link between growing right-wing populism in Europe and anti-Semitism." ... Last year, for example, a far-right extremist stormed into a US synagogue and killed 11 worshipers." And from the Times of Isreal, an article about Jews facing threat from multiple sources: All over the world, far-right, far-left and Islamist fanatics are stoking the flames of Jew-hatred,” Gideon Falter, chief executive of Britain’s Campaign Against Antisemitism group, told JTA. That's the problem with singling out a group as "the worst"; left unchecked, it leads to violence and the death of innocent people. When people on this thread present Muslims as evil and unable to chage, they are fanning flames of hatred and fear and are no different than a Muslim who denounces Jews as evil and unable to change.

1. ISIS throws gays off roofs, not Muslims; 2. Their religion does not demand it. 3. If it's reported as "Muslims throw gays off roof because their religion demands it" isn't "reporting", its propaganda.

Drivel. Anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim attacks are carried out by White Supremacists. Islamic extremists attack everyone.

In France, Austria, Belgium, a few other European nations and now Quebec, people are not free to wear what they want. In particular Muslim women are targetted by limitations on how they are allowed to dress. Even without these laws, Muslim women are attacked physically and verbally in many Western countries. We here might understand that the attackers are not the standard by which all Westerners should be judged, but ISIS will still use these things as propoganda against the West. True - Muslim women are attacked; Western milirary action results in dead Muslims. Propaganda - Westerners want to destroy Islam and eliminate Muslims. In some ME country, ISIS extremists threw gay people off a roof. I don't know if this happened once or twice, but it was in the very specific context of ISIS behavior. Never mind that even in countries where there is a state imposed death penalty, gays are actually rarely killed, or that if a private citizen kills a gay person its still murder. True: people were thrown from a roof as an Islamic-inspired punishment for being gay. Propaganda (repeated here pretty regularly) - Muslims want to, and will, kill gay people at will by throwing them from a roof. Another fact vs. propaganda example: Pew research confirms that the vast majority of Muslims disapprove of homosexuality and do not believe that one can be both Muslim and homosexual. Some smaller amount believe capital punishment (administered by the State or by Allah because murder is both religiously forbidden and illegal) is an appropriate punishment. Propaganda: Muslims murder gays at will by throwing them off roofs because their religion demands it.

I can't really think of anything especially redeeming about Christianity, either. Its homophobic, misogynistic and violent teachings are overcome by the best of people and indulged in by the worst of people, much like the teachings of Islam are used by Muslims. Non-believers also run the gamut from very good to very evil. But at least they decide for themsleves instead of needing a sky fairy to tell them how to behave, who to kill, who not to kill.

When ISIS uses scantily clad women, support for gay rights and Western media stories about about rape, murders, children being abused/abandonned, anti-niqab/hijab laws and Muslims being attacked (on the street by individuals or in ME countries by Western military) to prove how evil Westerners are, and how we want to destroy Islam and kill all Muslims, its propaganda. Some or even most of the stories are factually true, but the way its presented and spun is a lie deisgned to whip up hatred against Westerners. Anything positive about Westerners is dismissed, ignored, belittled - essentially not allowed. Same here on this thread, by some commentators. Some of the people on this thread use sites like "Religion of Peace" that claim to tell the truth about Islam, but everything posted there and repeated here is very one-sided, often deliberately misleading with occasional outright lies. They'll also post the same news stories several times to make Islam/Muslims look more violent. Anything positive that might be said about Muslims is attacked as lies, unimportant, "aplogist", etc - essentially not allowed. That's propaganda, no different than the propaganda used by ISIS.

Why not? Perhaps if Arabic discussion threads discussed normal Jews, instead of just the bad ones, there'd be less anti-Semitism in the Middle East. Perhaps if the humanity and normalcy of most people were highlighted, instead of making the claim that this group or that group was "the worst" - barbaric, cruel, backward, ignorant, immoral - there'd be more humanity in the world. It takes propaganda to hate others, and the propaganda of ISIS is no different than the propaganda found here. I agree it hasn't reached the levels of violence that ISIS ultimately engaged in, and I hope (assume) it never will, but it is - at its core - no different.

I remember years ago, before Google, reading that throughout history, adherence to more fundamental religious practices was tied to how threatened humans felt. Natural disaster, plagues, political unrest/war results in people trying to appease God, often through barbaric practices visited upon others. In a related note, has anyone else noticed more JW's out proselytizing lately? I see them almost daily at my busstop, after years of not seeing them, and got them knocking on my door after two decades of no visits. I believe this is directly tied to the world's political climate and climate change fears and makes them think we're in the "end times" now (again). Also, Christians are no doubt thrilled to be the most persecuted group (true or not), a clear sign of Jesus' imminent artival.