cannuck

Capitalism is not in any way a "scam" of any kind, it is simply the use of private and/or public capital resources to run the economy, instead of state-owned control of the means of production (finance and monetary). What IS the scam is what I call "Casino Capitalism" wherein the change of value of assets is used to redistribute wealth without the bother of having to add any value whatsoever. That is 99% scam. A Wall Street financier is no different from a government welfare programme: the wealth of the taxpayer is simply redistributed to the beneficiary with no value added. There is ONE difference, though: on the Street most of the benefit goes into a very few hands. What few seem to understand is that when the greed of the Street(s) must increase the money supply to fill financiers' pockets, the growth of that is a direct liability to the taxpayer. The vast majority of that money being printed is NOT going into the taxpayers' hands, but it IS a residual inflationary force that will ultimately devalue (or even crash) the value of their everything.

Have to agree with RtoL: we will live in a very different economic world in a few months. The real question will be if there is ANY leadership with the brains and balls to seize the opportunity and rebuild the economy with value being added instead of returning to the phoney Casino Capitalist and drawers of water, huers of wood. But: since Canada is notoriously short of such leadership, it will be the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks - paid with another trillion in debt.

This was a topic of constant discussion at least 6 weeks ago with prison workers. Our #2 SIL is a max security worker and explained how their inmates behave very differently under confinement. He/they are worried about full scale riots as the inmates can feel helpless and hopeless due to the psychology of confinement. It is a whole notch higher up the concern scale than just infection from the Wuhan Virus.

This is where it gets into the technicalities. Unless it is a sealed mask, properly fitted (and then is not a mask but a respirator), it does next to nothing (as flow will bias towards the leaks that can augment inhalation of contaminant). A lesser mask performs even poorer - and the majority of what is here is counterfeit crap from China. I have been looking at some FFP3 Euro masks and find that to reach the Type IIR level, the delta P across the filtration medium is much greater - thus will leak much more as a mask. It's not a matter of half the bullets vs. none, but the false sense of security means half of a thousand times more shots being deflected. Do the math.

All bringing us back to what I have been saying about Dr. Tam. She no doubt is far more aware of the issues and complexities than we untrained boobs dabbling in someone else's back yard. This was the most telling sentence from the link above: ""It is important, therefore, to understand that such masks are not necessarily protective for the wearer in terms of preventing inhalation of the residual droplets in the air, which enter from the sides unfiltered, but they can provide a way to reduce the range of contamination from the droplets-laden cloud.”"

Yeah, it does if distancing is thus ignored. BTW: ran across this today: Full article at https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/ne...ts/2866340001/Coronavirus might spread much farther than 6 feet in the air. CDC says wear a mask in public."The study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that under the right conditions, liquid droplets from sneezes, coughs and just exhaling can travel more than 26 feet and linger in the air for minutes.Findings such as these may have some bearing on the CDC's recommendation on Friday that Americans wear non-surgical face masks in public — especially in places "where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain."“There is no virtual wall at this 3- to 6-feet distance” says Lydia Bourouiba, the study's author, who specializes in fluid dynamics and is an associate professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. These findings suggest the greatest risk is for health care workers working with infected patients, she says.As seen in this video, shot from different views and posted with Bourouiba's report, the invisible cloud can travel up to 26 feet:"..."A lot goes into how far the cloud and its droplets travel: a person's physiology, the environment, humidity and temperature. “The cloud can reach up to 26 feet for sneezes and less than that for coughs — about 16 to 19 feet,” Bourouiba says.According to a 2009 World Health Organization report, when someone coughs, they can spray up to 3,000 droplets. A sneeze could yield 40,000."""It is important, therefore, to understand that such masks are not necessarily protective for the wearer in terms of preventing inhalation of the residual droplets in the air, which enter from the sides unfiltered, but they can provide a way to reduce the range of contamination from the droplets-laden cloud.”""The start of allergy season could also hasten new infections. Bourouiba warned that asymptomatic carriers could spread COVID-19 through any sneezing and coughing triggered by allergies."

You are crediting Mr Dressup and the Sesami Street cabinet with enough intelligence to be ABLE to be responsible. Any real blame lies with the Canadian voters who put such a band of dolts into parliament, never mind power. BTW: seems that the Canforce medical intelligence bunch were writing papers and screaming their heads off about this around the New Year. Heard on some news cast while working this morning, but can't find a citation.

Not my opinion, just that of scientists who kind of stick to the facts, not generalizations.

I have no need to understand the virus, only the physical dynamics of what air and water droplets do in and around a mask or any other impediment to flow. Just to be technically correct in a medical sense (this doesn't come from me, but from our children who are both rather accomplished at cellular and genetic level biology) there is no such thing as being "asymptomatic". The mere presence of virus in your breath is in fact a symptom that you are indeed a carrier. It would be far more accurate to state simply that the symptoms are not easily detectable. What we really need to understand (and I suspect Dr. Tam does due to her training as a public health professional) is that it is human behaviour that has to be understood. Just reading through this thread, you can see where people are emotionally attached to conclusions without the bother to understanding the facts. THAT is human nature and I suspect THAT is what she understands and is trying to work around. I think if you could sit down with Dr. Tam, you would find out her answers are perfectly logical - if you could find the whole story behind the decisions she must make.

As I state as a basic rule: I don't get to dictate the laws of physics, I (we) just have to live (or in this case die) by them. When considering the trajectory of an artillery shell, there are THREE forces that make the shape of the curve.s Gravity is but one, aerodynamic resistance is another. However, even for really large particles there is another force that is NOT to be ignored - the collisions with air molecules due to the movement OF the air itself. HERE'S THE KICK: When particles become very small, the mass-to-surface-area ratio changes dramatically and the air can very easily carry said particles aloft...thus why smoke, steam (cloud/fog) and indeed exhailed droplets of moisture from your breathing tract behave more as a part of the airflow pattern rather than an artillery projectile. The leaks of a face mask when coughing or sneezing have very high velocity "jets" of air through those leaks, and (Bernoulli) the low pressure of that airstream will pump not only air within, but some fairly large particles with them. It is called the "Venturi" after its discoverer. It is used to pump cargoes such as grain or cement with nothing but a bit of airflow. Do you think a CoViD virus might be lighter than cement???? Here is an excellent Wiki article to explain in detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect. With all due respect, Dougie is a philosophical thinker and an infantryman, not an artillaryman (or I suspect sniper) or engineer.

Betsy: First of all, please let me appologize. I had not noticed this thread over last while - did not mean to ignore you. I imagine Dr. Tam is reluctant to say you SHOULD wear a mask because of two very important things. - #1: a mask is meant to protect the wearer, but it takes an extremely good mask to even do that. Non-medical masks, or even a med mask not properly fitted are mediocre barriers for inhalation and terrible barriers for exhalation. While masks may be better than nothing for large drops of water, they are NOT by any means a single barrier that is effective - they are only one small part of a barrier system. #2: wearing of masks may make people feel safe, and THAT is the problem. If they feel safe, 2M distancing is gone. Watch videos or look at images of people wearing masks - they are usually crammed right together. See #1 to understand why that is a HUGE problem, and I expect that is what Dr. Tam is very aware of. Finally, the ongoing business of the virus settling when exhaled with water drops and droplets. Dougie in particular seems to think these are big chunks of lead that are going to slam to the ground as soon as you cough them up. MANY studies have shown (sorry, no time to look for citation right now) that it can remain airborne as much as 3 HOURS when exhaled. You see, we CONSTANTLY breathe out water droplets (we cough or sneeze drops, we breathe AND emit in coughs and sneezes very small droplets). Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). They get bounced around by vibrating air molecules in spite of being hundreds of time more dense. You know that smoke that has been mentioned earlier? So damn big you can SEE them. Think you can see a CoViD virus (0.06 to 0.14 microns)? Common Items and their respective particle sizes: Postage Stamp, 1 inch high25,400 microns Eye of a Needle1,230 microns Human Hair40 to 300 microns Oil Smoke0.03 to 1 micron Fertilizer10 to 1000 microns Tobacco Smoke0.01 to 1 microns Coal Dust1 to 100 micronsBeach Sand100 to 2000 microns Mold Spores10 to 30 microns Pollens10 to 1000 microns Typical Atmospheric Dust0.001 to 30 microns If you breathe onto a cold mirror, you can see the water vapour you exhale constantly. From what I understand, virus can hitchike on these very small water droplets (too small to see), but in very low concentration. I assume THIS is what is hang around 3 hours. It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I can endorse wearing a mask ONLY if one maintains their 2M distance.

just cleaning up my mess...isn't there a delete post function??.

oops

Betsy: First of all, please let me appologize. I had not noticed this thread over last while - did not mean to ignore you. I imagine Dr. Tam is reluctant to say you SHOULD wear a mask because of two very important things. - #1: a mask is meant to protect the wearer, but it takes an extremely good mask to even do that. Non-medical masks, or even a med mask not properly fitted are mediocre barriers for inhalation and terrible barriers for exhalation. While masks may be better than nothing for large drops of water, they are NOT by any means a single barrier that is effective - they are only one small part of a barrier system. #2: wearing of masks may make people feel safe, and THAT is the problem. If they feel safe, 2M distancing is gone. Watch videos or look at images of people wearing masks - they are usually crammed right together. See #1 to understand why that is a HUGE problem, and I expect that is what Dr. Tam is very aware of. Finally, the ongoing business of the virus settling when exhaled with water drops and droplets. Dougie in particular seems to think these are big chunks of lead that are going to slam to the ground as soon as you cough them up. MANY studies have shown (sorry, no time to look for citation right now) that it can remain airborne as much as 3 HOURS when exhaled. You see, we CONSTANTLY breathe out water droplets (we cough or sneeze drops, we breathe AND emit in coughs and sneezes very small droplets). Ever see fog? those are HUGE water droplets (so big you can see with the naked eye). They get bounced around by vibrating air molecules in spite of being hundreds of time more dense. You know that smoke that has been mentioned earlier? So damn big you can SEE them. Think you can see a CoViD virus (0.06 to 0.14 microns)? Common Items and their respective particle sizes: Postage Stamp, 1 inch high25,400 microns Eye of a Needle1,230 microns Human Hair40 to 300 microns Oil Smoke0.03 to 1 micron Fertilizer10 to 1000 microns Tobacco Smoke0.01 to 1 microns Coal Dust1 to 100 micronsBeach Sand100 to 2000 microns Mold Spores10 to 30 microns Pollens10 to 1000 microns Typical Atmospheric Dust0.001 to 30 microns If you breathe onto a cold mirror, you can see the water vapour you exhale constantly. From what I understand, virus can hitchike on these very small water droplets (too small to see), but in very low concentration. I assume THIS is what is hang around 3 hours. It IS right to fear the big drops, and they will settle much more quickly and become a major touch hazard. I can endorse wearing a mask ONLY if one maintains their 2M distance.

There are a number of vaccines in trials now (one from the company that works with IIRC Laval University guys and gals. They are the same company that developed the Ebola vaccine, and the Wuhan Virus vaccine is done the same way (innoculating agro bacteria that is picked up in plants). Essentially, the genetically engineer a clone of the OUTSIDE of the Corona Virus, but there is no genetic material INSIDE to infect the host.

Only if someone is listening. One of the big problems with data collection is that in several jurisdictions (US in particular) there is a shortage of testing capacity, so many deaths are not being recorded as Wuhan Virus, since nobody is testing the corpse. Thus: dead men may tell no lies, but neither do they always reveal their truth.

Tried to argue with that, thought of every country I could (knee jerk reaction to being conditioned to think mr Dressup is the second coming by the media)...comes back to the same place. Have to agree.

If you wish to read some technical stuff, this will let you know HOW dangerous this can be: Nervous systemhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/jmv.25728Heart damage?https://khn.org/news/mysterious-hear...-patients/amp/This virus is becoming a 'piece of work' if you know that expression.

As I said, giving him no break. There was no acceptable excuse.

I think the mental challenges of silver spoon mr dressup don't prevent him from FEELING like he is well intended, but obviously leave him incapable of THINKING about the consequences of his action and/or inactions. The hell of it is: he has surrounded himself with like-minded individuals.

Having worked back and fourth to China for many years, I have a fair understanding and appreciation of what works for them. Some of those things are abhorrent to Westerners, but compared with where it was in the Mao years, the whole world after Deng was a better place. BUT: since the West was far too naive and understanding of Chinese culture, we left ourselves wide open for the resulting assault on our economies, our intellectual property and our politics. I obviously can't speak for the tens of thousands of Chinese immigrants who are here, but I can relate the story of my best friend in China who, after years of our frequent exchanges in China and around the world, chose to move his family here from Beijing simply because he had learned enough from me to know how he wanted his son raised - as a Canadian, not as a Chinese or even a Chinese-Canadian. He was co-top-dog of a government owned enterprise with 80,000 people under him, so certainly enjoyed the benefits of being one of the star performers in his field. He walked away from that to become a small businessman in SK so his son could be a Canadian. When we contemplate or negotiate doing anything within China, he resolutely steers the whole process AWAY from anything to do with government. I can say with absolute certainty, the government of China is not "controlling" him in any way, nor could they. While he may have turned his back on the country for his family's sake, that doesn't mean he has become their mortal enemy, but it does mean we have an extremely valuable asset in this country that FULLY understands everything there is to know about how government and business there works - ESSENTIAL if we are going to be able to deal with managing that relationship to our mutual benefit as we go forward. The idea that we as a major resource nation can somehow ignore the fact that China is now the largest producing/manufacturing nation and now THE largest player in business finance is ludicrous. Dealing with them from a point of ignorance, arrogance or complacency is similarly a very bad idea. To do this effectively, we need to exploit the relationships with those who choose to be here, not to shun them from mistrust of their former homeland. BTW: I say all of this thinking back to how incredibly xenophobic Canada was in years gone by. From IIRC 1918 to 1947 we had something called "the Exclusion Act". My former business partner (now deceased, very sadly) was borne in the '30s to a Canadian father and Chinese mother. His Father was unable to bring his wife and child here until 1952 (yes, took 5 more years after repeal of the Act). He was able to do business with China all through the Mao years, mostly providing food from around the world after private farms were nationalized (and possibly over 100 MILLION Chinese were starved to death over nothing but ideology). If we ever expect or want to grow up and behave like a mature state, we need to be nationalistic where it matters but not exclusive where it also matters. Oh: after 3 years my friend's son has no hint of a Chinese accent and in pretty much every immaginable way is just like ever other Canadian kid you see every day.

IIRC it hit right between or straddling Chretien and Martin, and neither did diddly squat about it. By Harper's time, it was all forgotten but I can't give him a break on this one. Once the LPC came back to power, the drama queen spent all of our tax dollars signalling virtue, but delivering nothing but misery and embarrassment to the nation. After the little Tur...TRUdeau crashed the economy by allowing a tiny pair of "ancestral chiefs" simply walk all over the elected chiefs and council to shut down the entire Canadian rail system for weeks, it only seems logical that he would pay zero attention to what was obvious as the New Year started was a disease problem that WOULD spread out of China. We lost two months before his band of half-wits in cabinet even started to think about doing something to isolate Canada from the stream of Iranians, Europeans and Egyptians who simply stepped off of their planes unchallenged and unquestioned - to get the infection deeply seeded in Canada.

Yes it is amazing how easily the media swept under the table the weeks of foreign flights from hot spots landing in Canada without a single question being asked, never mind any kind of physical evaluation coming through customs. Seems South Korea, Taiwan, Germany all managed to have adequate testing available with the first few cases turned up. We, on the other hand, were busy doing what???? As far a Chinese immigration, or any other for that matter, I reiterate it is not about the country of origin, it needs to be about the individual. I don't think ANY immigrant becomes a "real Canadian", but their children generally are. Given the choice between a Chinese businessman who will bring not only his "immigrant entrepreneur" money (or whatever they are calling it today) but his business connections back to the largest real economy in the world (yes, stick the US BS where the sun don't shine: their economic measure is based largely on speculative value, not wealth creation) and the usual "economic refugee" who will not likely ever contribute diddly squat, but who WILL cost us a small fortune or the usual drug dealer from the Caribbean who will certainly be a busy little entrepreneur with all of our rich kids to sell to - and you can guess which one I will pick. No, I don't like the politics of the Chicom Party, but I do recognize and appreciate that they have avoided becoming a closed society by trading with the rest of the world - that we in the developed West allowed and invited. What I DO regret is that we did so diplomatically, but did NOT do anything in trade relations to protect OUR economy while turning China loose on a world that had no idea what was coming at them.

I should explain that we have a child who is rather expert in matters of cellular biology. She explains that the reason you can test positive is that you ARE symptomatic, just that for many people, those symptoms are not recognized or even recognizable. But, if you test positive, you ARE technically symptomatic. Sunday dinner around here is like Big Bang...think of me as Sheldon's Dad but Sheldon is two sisters, not fraternal twins.