Derek 2.0

My point exactly.......as it says in the article: furthermore: Off ramps such as deciding in the defense review that we're out of the warship business, and that our needs could be met by an equal number of cheaper and less complex cutters.......or better yet, if proven successful, another batch of AOPS vessels awarded to the shipbuilder in lieu of frigates..........the shipbuilders make money, the workers still have jobs, the GoC "saves money" and the navy becomes a coast guard.

Right, but far more telling: If some programs are going to soar upwards of 181% of cost (for simple Coast Guard vessels) how are they going to contend with a similar increase for the frigates? How does a Justin Trudeau Government gain support for building "guided missile style battleships" at ~$26 billion, let alone ~$70 billion?

Then what have you been arguing? As I've clearly stated, the Trudeau Government will not be purchasing new frigates inside this mandate, through to the end of this decade. How is Irving going to select the warship designer and combat systems integrator in 2017 when the requirements will be mandated by the Trudeau Government's defense review? Said review could very well find, based on our past actual use of our frigates, combined with the Trudeau Government's own stated strategic priorities: That we don't need ~15 guided missile destroyers and frigates to conduct said priorities, as every mission our current frigates have conducted, since they entered service, could have been done with an equal number of cutters. Vessels such as these, even on the high end such as the USCG's large National Security Cutters, could be had at nearly half the price, with a reduced lifetime operating cost and could have done each and everyone of the tasks our navy has done in the last ~25 years at a reduced cost. If "stealth first strike fighters" don't fit into this Government's plans, why would large "American style, first strike guided missile battleships"? 2014 procurement guide, written in 2013, by the previous Government......prior to it funding a Hornet life extension program, that will see the Hornets serve until ~2025.......There will be no contract awarded inside this Government's mandate unless they add billions in new spending to their outlined fiscal plan.......... To paraphrase Gus Grissom: "No bucks, no Buck Rogers"........ What really makes you think this Government is going to spend 10s of billions of dollars (if ever), money they don't currently have budgeted, before conducting a full review of our nation's defense requirements? That, in itself, is putting the cart before the horse, as said review could determine we have no need to spend 10s of billions of dollars on a first or second rate combat capable force, when there are no real direct threats to our Nation.

The annual defense budget, under this Government or the one previous contained no new funds for new frigates and fighters. The new Liberal Government, as per their own fiscal plan have no new money for said new ships or fighters. Irving shipbuilding, doesn't have the capacity to build new frigates inside this mandate of the Trudeau Government, as they will be building the already funded AOPS vessels through 2020. Hence your baseless claims that the new Trudeau Government will be procuring new frigates inside this mandate is absurd.

Not in the time frame you suggest the Liberals will, since the Liberals haven't funded said new programs. The Liberals aren't using the same budget numbers as the Conservatives. I never said that, nor do I think the Liberals would cancel programs, like the AOPS, that have already been funded by the previous Government. Who said that? I've no doubt they will continue with the contracts already paid for by the previous Government. Apples and oranges, as the Liberals aren't tabling a like budget as the previous Government had projected. If true, good.........but didn't you just suggest above the Liberals wouldn't take work away from Liberal riding(s) on the East Coast? Except for their four year fiscal plan.........hard to build ships without any money Smallc refuses to support his claim that the Liberals will fund new shipbuilding, inside this mandate, despite the Liberal's own fiscal plan not containing any new money for new ships.

Huh? I never suggested that they would........if a contract was signed in the 2020-2021 fiscal year, that would align with an out of service date for the Hornet in 2025....... I can and did, numerous times with Waldo in the previous F-35 thread. Canada, never once, intended to purchase the F-35 outside of full-rate production.........full rate production doesn't begin until 2020, hence we wouldn't have purchased aircraft prior. Under the timeline set by the previous Government, none the less, assuming the Trudeau Liberals maintained the timelines of the previous Government, 2017 doesn't equate to a final contract, as one can't contract for something that has yet to be designed........hence, once the contractors were selected, for the Government to sign a contract for new frigates inside this mandate, the contractor would be required to submit a final design to the Government inside of two years..............something that all of said designers biding on this program, haven't done with any of their previous programs........so, like I've been saying, this, combined with the fact the new GoC doesn't have money budgeted, confirms my point that no new frigates will be bought inside this mandate. I provided proof ........proof that includes such small budget items as $60 million to do away with National park fees or $28 million over four years to reopen VAC offices............yet no money, in the 10s of billions, for new ships of fighters. Perhaps to you, but inside several weeks, this new Government has already reversed several promises they made during the election............now I could be wrong, and the Trudeau Liberals decide to add upward of $40 billion dollars of new spending inside this mandate for new ships and frigates.........I stand to be corrected. Well no, you didn't, as said plan doesn't include new money for the navy or CCG..........unless you're suggesting the Liberals have ~$40+ billion hidden for new military purchases inside this mandate

No it wasn't, if it were, the then Government would not have sought an additional Hornet life extension in that period, starting after the USN/USMC program was completed in 2017-2018. Your proof is in countless cites in the previous F-35 thread. Can you demonstrate, from within the Liberal's own fiscal plan, where said money is to come from? When is the "designer and combat intergrator" set to be selected? As to proof, of a direct contradiction, your own link above, which quotes a Government source stating some programs are going to require far more money (that the Liberal don't have budgeted) or will be canceled. I never stated either was signed, and under this Government, I doubt they will be inside this mandate...........previous milestones mean nothing to a different Government......or a party in an election.......how many Syrians are to be brought in by the end of the year now? Evidence

Again you are quoting a null and void document, as the previous Government had no intention of purchasing the F-35 until it reached full rate production, in the 2020+ timeline......hence why they budgeted a Hornet life extension program to keep them in service until ~2025. Under the Conservatives, there would have been no F-35s bought, hence no money "flowing" in 2017-2018, as they had no intention of purchasing the F-35 outside of full rate production. As to ships, outside the vessels already in production or paid for, the only contracts to be signed inside this mandate, by the Tories, would have been the for the interim AOR (in 2015) and the new production AORs in the 2016-2017 fiscal year.......which is a moot point since they are no longer Government and the Liberals will not table a Tory budget, as they have clearly different spending plans (as they outlined in their public fiscal plan). Hence, despite your baseless claims otherwise, there will be no new ships or fighter purchases, inside this mandate, unless the new Liberal Government adds additional money to their fiscal plan. I will be surprised if they select and sign a contract for FWSAR........likewise, if they don't cut any current capabilities.

There is no new procurement money for frigates or fighters in said budget, nor does the Liberal's own fiscal plan or election platform indicate said money will be forthcoming within this mandate.

Exactly, furthermore, by not reacting, Putin gains political capital with the West and likely concessions on a Assad regime staying in place.

Why? NATO didn't kick out Turkey or Greece over their conflict in Cyprus.

No, you didn't........you provided an out of date guide, not a budget, since the Tories didn't release any spending plans past next year. The Liberals also stated 25000 Syrian refugees by the end of this year.............how'd that work out?

The Conservative's have signed production contracts, which have already started on both coasts, in addition to the interim AOR lease........to date the new Liberal Government has punted the interim AOR lease, and in this recent "leak" is how the Liberal attempt to get out in front of a bad news story........Since this Government doesn't have new money budgeted in its fiscal plan, coupled with said leak suggesting they will have to add additional money (that isn't budgeted) or cancel programs, the writing is on the wall.

Where is the money? You've been asked countless times to support this claim, a claim that is easily countered by the Liberal's own fiscal plan.........This "leak" is government speak for punting those vessels not already under contract into the next mandate (if ever).........

This is not in doubt, and is eerily similar to what PET did to the navy (military) on entering office, retiring our last aircraft carrier (despite just finishing a refit that would have allowed her to serve into the 1980s), reducing the destroyer program down to four and cancelling the destroyer escort replacement program (guided missile frigates) in the late 60s...... The Coast Guard vessels will get built, the AOPS for the navy have already been paid for, but I'll predict our last destroyer will go next year and the subs won't be too far behind. If they decide to purchase a converted AOR (be from Davie, Irving or Seaspan), the navy will be lucky to get a second one, and that will be it for the purpose built AORs, likewise, the navy will be lucky to keep all 12 of the frigates, but I wouldn't be surprised if some are put into "reduced operating status" (like PET did with a portion of our old destroyer escorts in the 70s) as the AOPS come online.

What money? The Liberals don't have $35 billion+ built into their four year spending plans, this will be their excuse to "reexamine" the requirements of the GoC and punt the program, outside those vessels already paid for by the Harper Government (The several CCG and AOPS vessels).

Except your link doesn't suggest that, stating in the case of Seaspan: The same company you linked to above, that they state they can build an interim AOR, like Irving, cheaper than Davie..........which begs the question, why can't Seaspan or Irving build the billions of dollars worth of vessels contracted to them? The Coast Guard will get theirs, the navy, not a chance..........

Right, but thankfully they didn't ban single gay males (a group at risk in any Muslim country)......my question, if a member of ISIS was trying to sidestep this "security measure", couldn't they just say they were gay?

No, you said he was keeping his original promise made during the election.....clearly he is not, furthermore, by excluding single males, he's not even keeping the promise made by the NDP. And the only fault that I find in this move is if the remaining 10k that will be brought in, will also have their screening process rushed.

How is he keeping his word? He promised 25k by the end of the year, and the cost (excluding costs to the Provinces and cities) will be three times more than he said earlier. Not that I care that he is slowing down the process.

Odd that, since the Russian Government has confirmed they know one Marine and one of the Su-24's pilots was killed.

From Russian media.......this report says one Russian Marine was killed.

Right, and it sounds as if several of the SAR helicopter crew members were killed also. Sure, but compared against countless incidents during the Cold War, in my opinion, there is no reason to run to the fallout shelters yet..........but I imagine the cost of oil and gas in Turkey, which depends on Russian energy imports, will soar.

Exactly, but such sour grapes and Government do-overs aren't only found in Canada....see KC-X program.......but in this case, there is no logical reason for it, as neither the Tories or NDP would have made a stink over it if the Government had of followed through....it makes zero sense, other than Irving is found within the Liberal dominated East Coast and/or the Government has other spending priorities..