There is no apparent resolution of the Israeli situation

[Guest Peeves]

There are those that naively speculate that if Israel did..(_-____--__-------- and _ ____-_, and ---------))........ there would then be a peace with it's neighbors, its ENEMIES. Just look at those historically (since conception!) that have attacked Israel in the past and the agenda of those ENEMIES today for any conclusion.

I suggest there is no offer that Israel can make, no effort or move, that will be acceptable to Israels enemies and Muslim states or neighbors.

To consider any reasonable response the crux of the problem must be considered. That is,the declared enemies and other detractors,will not accept the existence of any but a Muslim country in the geographic region occupied by a Jewish state.

Their mandates, their charters Hamas-Hezbollah, their overt declarations on agenda..Iran.

In New York, defiant Ahmadinejad says Israel will be "eliminated"

http://www.reuters.c...E88N0HF20120924

(Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Monday Israel has no roots in the Middle East and would be "eliminated," ignoring a U.N. warning to avoid incendiary rhetoric ahead of the annual General Assembly session.

I have been a observer of this Middle East Israel situ since 1948. There was an offer then to form an Arab state same as that offered the Jews, it was turned down.

Actually what was really UNACCEPTABLE THEN as it is now, is/was the creation of a non Muslim state on Muslim land-- considered as never to be acceptable. Wasn't then...Israel was attacked on all fronts... and isn't at ANY TIME SINCE.

There is verily, no factual evidence, proven by the history and actions of Israel's avowed enemies, NO concession that Israel could make that would be acceptable to its enemies.

Those suggesting that "If ONLY Israel .would ...yada yada...there would be peace" are flummoxed naive innocents that are so bemused by rose colored non-solutions that they choose to ignore the reality. No concession(s) would appease Israel's enemies...ever!

Now think!

Surrounded by those that have and will attack them, Arabs, Turks, Persians and confronted in the media by a billion plus Islamic followers most if not all being taught that Israel is illegitimate and certainly a biased U.N. the Islamic countries are satisfied to simply wait. They have nothing to lose and all the time in the world. They have allies in both time and in the anti-Semites - anti-Israelis, anti-Zionists and the fact that a death by a Muslim in jihad becomes a martyr.

Israel is but a sliver of a land, a democracy where human rights prevail.

Islam, well, Islam is not.

You ignore reality and history if you think a one state solution..(Israel destroyed by numbers) or a 2 state solution...,( Israel destroyed by continued attack by radicals and extremists )THAT WILL NEVER ACCEPT any legitimacy of Israel on Islamic lands are viable choices.

Israel has literally no control, no solution, no means or method of appeasing those enemies that seek nothing less than the return of Muslim lands to Islam. PERIOD! Israel can react, respond, and that always serves those claiming the response is too severe.inappropriate...

All Israel can do is to insure no mistakes and maintain it's security and survival. Israel cannot afford to make a mistake.

Its enemies are counting on that opportunity.

Iran's missiles cannot be stopped by Iron Dome. Iran's capability of a nuke device is only a year or so in the future. Would Iran sacrifice a few million Arabs in the Middle East to annihilate the state of Israel? What do you think?

http://www.iris.org..../new_jersey.gif

Israel could fit in a Canadian 'Great Lake.'

http://www.sizeofisrael.com/

[wyly]

what bs....israel is a sliver land boo hoo, it should be allowed to ethnically cleanse the west bank of semites because it's a sliver of land....repeat sad story over until someone believes it...israel population density 347/km2, singapore population density 7,315/km2...when are you going to get on the singapore bandwagon and promote singapore ethnic cleansing of malaysia...

singapore can manage to make due with just a few islands 710sqkm but israel can't make due with 20,000sqkm? no it has to steal land from an occupied people...poor poor israel with it's sliver of land, hey maybe we can offer Israel toronto we have so much land it won't be missed we can move the locals somewhere else they won't mind, they have the rest of canada, usa, austrailia, uk, new zealand and any other english speaking country to move to...

[DogOnPorch]

what bs....israel is a sliver land boo hoo, it should be allowed to ethnically cleanse the west bank of semites because it's a sliver of land....repeat sad story over until someone believes it...

Well, hang on here. What's going to happen to the Jewish settlers* if/when the Arabs get their state going in the WB?

* A weaselly buzz word if there ever was one. Welcome to Canada, "settler"...stop stealing my land...lol.

[dre]

Well, hang on here. What's going to happen to the Jewish settlers* if/when the Arabs get their state going in the WB?

* A weaselly buzz word if there ever was one. Welcome to Canada, "settler"...stop stealing my land...lol.

They are Israeli Citizens. They can either live in Israel, or try to immigrate to the new state. It will be up to the new government there to decide if they can get legal permanent resident status there or not, just like its up to the US government to decide if a mexican can, and just like its up to the Israeli government to decide if a Palestinian is given legal residency or citizenship in Israel.

This is a stupid question with a self evident answer.

[DogOnPorch]

They are Israeli Citizens. They can either live in Israel, or try to immigrate to the new state. It will be up to the new government there to decide if they can get legal permanent resident status there or not, just like its up to the US government to decide if a mexican can, and just like its up to the Israeli government to decide if a Palestinian is given legal residency or citizenship in Israel.

This is a stupid question with a self evident answer.

That's right. We both know that there will be no Jews allowed in this new state. And what's that going to entail? Correct...ethnic cleansing. Christians next. What's left of them, that is.

Now...as you know, I'm an atheist...but, even I can see there MUST be some sort of motivation for these "settlers" to be in what once wasn't called the West Bank of the Jordan River. You can too, I imagine. While some are no doubt dyed-in-the-wool Likud types or hyper-orthodox types...I'm sure that can't account for all the "settlers" who often started these small towns as kibbutzes back in the 60s or 70s.

As I mentioned earlier in another thread...y'all are pretty easy on the uprooting folks and moving them, yerselves.

It's called anything BUT ethnic cleansing then.

[Bonam]

They are Israeli Citizens. They can either live in Israel, or try to immigrate to the new state. It will be up to the new government there to decide if they can get legal permanent resident status there or not, just like its up to the US government to decide if a mexican can, and just like its up to the Israeli government to decide if a Palestinian is given legal residency or citizenship in Israel.

That doesn't make any sense. When you found a new state, you can't just decide that some of the people on the land you claim are not gonna be allowed to be citizens and will be deported. Otherwise Israel could just found "Israel 2" in the West Bank and refuse to give citizenship to any Arabs and deport them all.

No, just as Israel gave citizenship to all the Arabs on its territory, so too will any future Palestinian state have to give citizenship to any Jews in the territory it holds, if it has any hope of being legitimate. Of course, whether said Jews actually want to stay there, or would prefer to move back to Israel, will be up to them.

[wyly]

They are Israeli Citizens. They can either live in Israel, or try to immigrate to the new state. It will be up to the new government there to decide if they can get legal permanent resident status there or not, just like its up to the US government to decide if a mexican can, and just like its up to the Israeli government to decide if a Palestinian is given legal residency or citizenship in Israel.

This is a stupid question with a self evident answer.

a palestinian given legal residency in Israel...ya never...israel has abundant empty land to relocate settlers to...

[DogOnPorch]

Of course, whether said Jews actually want to stay there, or would prefer to move back to Israel, will be up to them.

Unless Jews and Christians suddenly don't really take their respective religions seriously, there ALWAYS going to be Jews and Christians wanting to be in that part of the world with borders that are very much part of the 20th century. That Islam put its stamp on the the area going so far as to co-opt their enemy's holy places and figures is the ultimate fly in the ointment. I put the blame Omar...very much a man and not a prophet of Allah or some sort of demi-god...for all this mess ultimately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar

[DogOnPorch]

a palestinian given legal residency in Israel...ya never...israel has abundant empty land to relocate settlers to...

Again...no understanding as to what attracts Jews to that part of the world.

[wyly]

Israel 34th in population density...westbank/gaza would come is 17th...israel has plenty of room it has no need to cleanse the west bank of it's indigenous population... none of those countries with even higher population densities is actively dispossessing the inhabitants of occupied territories...this is a zionist version of lebensraum or apartheid/bantustans take your pick...

and if they must need more room let them move to their other homeland, the USA...

Edited November 29, 2012 by wyly

[DogOnPorch]

Israel 34th in population density...westbank/gaza would come is 17th...israel has plenty of room it has no need to cleanse the west bank of it's indigenous population... none of those countries with even higher population densities is actively dispossessing the inhabitants of occupied territories...this is a zionist version of lebensraum or apartheid/bantustans take your pick...

The 'occupied territories' contain most of the Jewish peoples' holy sites. I think the Muslims might be a tad upset if Mecca was controlled by the Jews. Don't you?

Edited November 29, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Rachel's Tomb in the 'occupied territories'. As you can see, these folks take their religion just as seriously as the Muslims do theirs minus the suicide bombers. It's way older than Islam as you probably know. Islam co-opted elements of both Christianity and Judaism during its evolution in efforts to become dominant over all others.

Edited November 29, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel 34th in population density...westbank/gaza would come is 17th...israel has plenty of room it has no need to cleanse the west bank of it's indigenous population... none of those countries with even higher population densities is actively dispossessing the inhabitants of occupied territories...this is a zionist version of lebensraum or apartheid/bantustans take your pick...

Interesting observation, as Canada is ranked 232nd in population density, but does have indigenous bantustans (reserves).

and if they must need more room let them move to their other homeland, the USA...

They can have both....and do.

[dre]

That doesn't make any sense. When you found a new state, you can't just decide that some of the people on the land you claim are not gonna be allowed to be citizens and will be deported. Otherwise Israel could just found "Israel 2" in the West Bank and refuse to give citizenship to any Arabs and deport them all.

No, just as Israel gave citizenship to all the Arabs on its territory, so too will any future Palestinian state have to give citizenship to any Jews in the territory it holds, if it has any hope of being legitimate. Of course, whether said Jews actually want to stay there, or would prefer to move back to Israel, will be up to them.

This is pure fantasy. Those settlers do not own the land they live on, and they were illegally transfered there as part of the Israeli occupation there... When the occupation ends those settlements will be dismantled by Israel. Those settlements ARE the occupation, and most of the people living there are Israeli citizens that live there under the authorization of the government of Israel which will no longer be valid.

Israel will need to repatriate all those citizens. It will offer them government compensation packages, and land/housing in Israel. The vast majority of the settlers will accept those packages and leave, and the ones that dont will be removed by the IDF.

Heres how it works... We have seen this before.

Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.^[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.^[2] The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.

And it has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing, its about ISRAEL withdrawing temporary authorization it has given to some of its citizens to live and work in the occupied territories.

Now this does not mean any kind of wholesale expulsion of Jews. Theres probably a handfull of Jews there that are not part of the occupation, and are not even Israeli citizens. Israel is not responsible for their removal like it is for its own citizens in its own settlements, and these peoples residency might predate the occupation itself.

If the government in the West Bank tries to round THESE people up and deport them, or if it targets them in any way, they will be violating international law...

The forcible deportation of a population – is defined as a crime against humanity under the statutes of both International Criminal Court (ICC) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY).^[

[Hudson Jones]

That doesn't make any sense. When you found a new state, you can't just decide that some of the people on the land you claim are not gonna be allowed to be citizens and will be deported.

Does your rule apply to the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now Israel?

[Bonam]

Does your rule apply to the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now Israel?

Most of those who left did so voluntarily, at the urging of their leaders (just as many Jews would voluntarily leave the West Bank if a sovereign Palestinian state was founded there). But many chose to remain, and were allowed to do so, and were granted Israeli citizenship, voting rights, etc. In fact, a large portion of Israel's population is precisely those Arabs who remained in 1948 and their descendants, all enjoying better rights and opportunities than their fellows in most other Arab countries.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Bonam

[dre]

Most of those who left did so voluntarily, at the urging of their leaders (just as many Jews would voluntarily leave the West Bank if a sovereign Palestinian state was founded there). But many chose to remain, and were allowed to do so, and were granted Israeli citizenship, voting rights, etc. In fact, a large portion of Israel's population is precisely those Arabs who remained in 1948 and their descendants, all enjoying better rights and opportunities than their fellows in most other Arab countries.

The thing is it wont even come to that... A Palestinian government wont need to evict jews from those settlements because the IDF will do it. And theres a good chance Israel will actually demolish them.

My post on the last page covered this pretty well.

[Bonam]

The thing is it wont even come to that... A Palestinian government wont need to evict jews from those settlements because the IDF will do it. And theres a good chance Israel will actually demolish them.

I don't think the IDF should be in the business of evicting Jews from their chosen homes. If Israel withdraws from the West Bank as it withdrew from Gaza, it should let Jews living in the West Bank make the choice for themselves, of whether to return to Israel or take their chances under the PA. I expect most Jews would return, but for those that really want to stay, I really don't see why it should be Israel's role to tell them that they can't and to remove them by force.

[dre]

I don't think the IDF should be in the business of evicting Jews from their chosen homes. If Israel withdraws from the West Bank as it withdrew from Gaza, it should let Jews living in the West Bank make the choice for themselves, of whether to return to Israel or take their chances under the PA. I expect most Jews would return, but for those that really want to stay, I really don't see why it should be Israel's role to tell them that they can't and to remove them by force.

That depends on what kind of government ISrael has. When they pulled out of Gaza, Sharon wanted to demolish all the settlements, Perez wanted to leave them intact for Palestinians to use.

And the issue is that those settlers have no legal case to keep the land they live on. Any ownership or deeds they might be in posession of are derived from the occupational authority which is no longer valid and which was not legal in the first place. Any legal ownership they have over that land is basically a contract between those settlers and the occupational authority, and the palestinian government would be in no way legally or morally bound to honor any such contracts. They could if they wanted to... but thats up to them.

[Guest Peeves]

Does your rule apply to the Palestinians who were driven out of what is now Israel?

I think the ARABS that left the newly proclaimed Israel that left on the advice of their leaders are for the most part deceased or too old to travel. That was a lifetime ago.

[Guest Peeves]

I don't think the IDF should be in the business of evicting Jews from their chosen homes. If Israel withdraws from the West Bank as it withdrew from Gaza, it should let Jews living in the West Bank make the choice for themselves, of whether to return to Israel or take their chances under the PA. I expect most Jews would return, but for those that really want to stay, I really don't see why it should be Israel's role to tell them that they can't and to remove them by force.

Agreed. If Arabs want a Palestine state there are consequences.

[Guest Peeves]

Most of those who left did so voluntarily, at the urging of their leaders (just as many Jews would voluntarily leave the West Bank if a sovereign Palestinian state was founded there). But many chose to remain, and were allowed to do so, and were granted Israeli citizenship, voting rights, etc. In fact, a large portion of Israel's population is precisely those Arabs who remained in 1948 and their descendants, all enjoying better rights and opportunities than their fellows in most other Arab countries.

I bet it would take one helluva offer of recompense to induce an Arab Israeli to go to most any Islamic country with the benefits they enjoy in Israel.

[Canuckistani]

That doesn't make any sense. When you found a new state, you can't just decide that some of the people on the land you claim are not gonna be allowed to be citizens and will be deported. Otherwise Israel could just found "Israel 2" in the West Bank and refuse to give citizenship to any Arabs and deport them all.

No, just as Israel gave citizenship to all the Arabs on its territory, so too will any future Palestinian state have to give citizenship to any Jews in the territory it holds, if it has any hope of being legitimate. Of course, whether said Jews actually want to stay there, or would prefer to move back to Israel, will be up to them.

Sure, give em citizenship. But since they'll lose the land they stole, doubt too many will want to hang around.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure, give em citizenship. But since they'll lose the land they stole, doubt too many will want to hang around.

I'm sure they're armed.

[dre]

Like I said this whole argument is stupid. The whole point of a two state solution is to put some distance between all these idiots. Why the hell would anyone with half a brain argue for forcing a new palestinian state to keep pockets of the most zealous Israelis scattered throughout the West Bank? Are you that desperate for people to keep fighting and killing each other? This would lead to tension, bad will, and confrontation.

And this is also an argument quite frankly of people that just dont pay attention. We already know what these pullouts look like... Israel wont even leave this up to the palestinians, they will offer the settlers compensation packages and land in Israel to move the vast majority of people out, then send in security forces to evict the nuts that refuse to go. Do any of you really believe for a second that Israel is going to leave the fate of hundreds of thousands of jews in the occupied territories up to the palestinians? Try paying attention.

Jesus freakin christ....

Edited December 1, 2012 by dre