The Bible

[betsy]

Have you ever stepped outside of your own little world? Others speak of their feelings, their beliefs, too. There's a whole world out there. You obviously have access to the internet, so perhaps you should use it to educate yourself if you honestly have no knowledge of life outside of Baptists and/or Christianity.

I've been outside most of my life, so I know about the outside world. The irony of it....when I was on the outside, I was caged by all the trappings. But when I went in, I feel free. (I don't know how exactly to describe it).

At any rate, from what you are now saying, "Christians" actually means "Baptists;"

Eh? I said no such thing!

I was trying to answer your question:

AM:

So how can you be sure that other Christians have experienced the same thing? - surely you can't hold their feelings in your hand and measure them.

I can relate with Baptists, because of the testimonies in our service...when some fellow Baptists share.

Betsy:

Have you ever attended a Baptist service? We share testimonies, and/or something we wish to thank for.

A fellowship follows after service (some churches have potluck lunches, or snacks) the purpose of which is to share with one another. Born again Christians usually freely talk with fellow-Christians about their epiphany or spiritual experiences. We understand one another...what we mean when talking about spiritual experiences.

But of course, we cannot compare the EXACT measurement of our fulfillment/emotions

I also can relate with my co-workers - who belong to different denominations - because they share with me. But again, I cannot possibly compare the EXACT measurement of their emotions with mine...even though they shared it with me. I can only imagine, by basing it with my own.

Anyway, where are you going with this? Why such pre-occupation with the comparison of feeling EXACTLY the same way?

you are sure that other Baptists have felt what you feel - because you evidently can hold their feelings in your hand and weigh them.

I said no such thing either. Better scroll back and re-read.

So you can't "understand" anyone outside of your little Baptist circle? Is that what you're saying?

What happened here? We seem to have a little dis-connect. How did you come up with that?

So are you now saying that you aren't "sure" that others have felt the same thing you feel? As I said, you seem to be dancing all over the issue.

Re-read my post. I have the feeling you're forcing me to go to the direction you want me to go....

So you can imagine that Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists have felt what you feel?

A direct answer to the question would be most appropriate, but I have the feeling you're going to continue your dance - which tells me all I need to know.

Do they feel pain? Joy? Sadness? Disappointments? Elation? All other emotions any human being feel? Of course they do.

But do we feel EXACTLY THE SAME LEVEL OF EMOTION? Like handing over the responsibility to another, thus having a heavy burden lifted off one's shoulders....I could only imagine basing it on what I, myself feel....but of course I wouldn't definitely know if what she feels is exactly the same level as how I feel. I don't know. Do you?

Can you say that you feel exactly the same level of emotion with another woman - like as an example, the joy of having your first baby, or vice versa? I'd like to hear you say you do.

Edited July 30, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

But do we feel EXACTLY THE SAME LEVEL OF EMOTION? Like handing over the responsibility to another, thus having a heavy burden lifted off one's shoulders....I could only imagine basing it on what I, myself feel....but of course I wouldn't definitely know if what she feels is exactly the same level as how I feel. I don't know. Do you?

Can you say that you feel exactly the same level of emotion with another woman - like as an example, the joy of having your first baby?

One. More. Time. You said that you know that other Christians have felt the same way you do. When I asked if you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists et al feel the same way when embracing God, you said you can't say because you can't hold it in your hands and measure it, or some such thing. I then asked if that meant you actually don't know that other Christians have felt what you have, and you then went on about how in your Baptist Church you talk about such things and are open about it - you didn't claim not to know what they are feeling because you can't hold it in your hand and measure it. By the same token, if you're out in the world at all, I would assume that you've experienced hearing how people from other religions feel too. So seems to me, if you know how other Christians feel you should also know how Jews, Muslims, Buddhists et al feel - or else not know how anyone feels. But you never directly confirm or deny knowing how everyone feels.

At any rate, you've danced around it for at least half a dozen posts - which tells me all I need to know (after wasting way too much time on what was a very simple question - but at least I now know what I wanted to know).

[betsy]

One. More. Time. You said that you know that other Christians have felt the same way you do.

Yes. But not EXACTLY.

When I asked if you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists et al feel the same way when embracing God,

I said if they say they feel at peace....or joy etc.. because of their religion....who am I to argue with them and say, "no, you dont'" What's there to argue? They must know their own selves better than I would know them, don't you think? So why shouldn't I accept what they say about themselves.

It's another thing though if someone says "Oh I'm so happy and at peace," yet you could see he's all tense and losing his temper at the drop of the hat, so rudely impatient and always seem to be angry about something.....would you believe him?

So I'd say that action does speak louder than words.

you said you can't say because you can't hold it in your hands and measure it, or some such thing. I then asked if that meant you actually don't know that other Christians have felt what you have, and you then went on about how in your Baptist Church you talk about such things and are open about it - you didn't claim not to know what they are feeling because you can't hold it in your hand and measure it. By the same token, if you're out in the world at all, I would assume that you've experienced hearing how people from other religions feel too. So seems to me, if you know how other Christians feel you should also know how Jews, Muslims, Buddhists et al feel - or else not know how anyone feels. But you never directly confirm or deny knowing how everyone feels.

At any rate, you've danced around it for at least half a dozen posts - which tells me all I need to know (after wasting way too much time on what was a very simple question - but at least I now know what I wanted to know).

I've never talked to a Muslim, or a Buddhist or anyone from another non-Christian religion, about their religion and how they feel. We talked about general things.

Well, you seemed to have avoided my last question....when I asked you the same type of question you're asking me....just so to let you feel how impossible it is to answer. You seem to want me to answer and commit myself to something you yourself cannot do.

And you're right. We're getting too locked in this question - which I've already answered as best as I could - which is actually getting nowhere. So unless you answer that same question....I beg to be excused.

Edited July 30, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Well, you seemed to have avoided my last question....when I asked you the same type of question you're asking me....just so to let you feel how impossible it is to answer. You seem to want me to answer and commit myself to something you yourself cannot do.

Good. God. I asked you - because of the claim YOU originally made. I never made such a claim. a thousand times over.

I swear you would continue to dance around the question til the end of time rather than give a direct answer - which you are obviously trying so hard to avoid doing - which tells me all that I need to know.

[kimmy]

The Persecuted Christians in America thread has kind of veered off-topic into discussing how awesome the Old Testament is. I'd like to transfer that discussion here, so that I can get back to tales of Christians being thrown to the lions in 2012 America. Tim Tebow is suffering as we speak!

To kick-start things a little, I present one of my favorite parts of the Old Testament: 2 Kings 2:23-25, Elisha's road-trip.

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Feel the love! God sends two bears to maul 42 children to death because they called Elisha "bald-head". It's like Stephen Colbert told us, bears really are the #1 threat.

-k

[Melanie_]

Deleted. Discussing anything with Betsy is like beating your head on a wall.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Melanie_

[betsy]

Deleted. Discussing anything with Betsy is like beating your head on a wall.

Yeah I can understand and emphatize with how you must be feeling...especially when you can't respond because you know you got your foot in your mouth!

And it's not the first time either. In Abortion on Christian Grounds....you came in blindly, charging like a raging bull without having your facts straight!! So of course you ran straight smack into the wall!

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21184&st=60

And you're blaming me????

So anyway, just so to give you a chance to respond, it's okay to go off-topic on this note - since it involves a Bible passage anyway.

Yes, Betsy, of course. The daughters got him too drunk to know that he was having sex with his own children. Lot set the standard defense for incestuous fathers everywhere - "no, really, she wanted it!"

And may I also remind you that Lot's story happened prior to Moses - before The Commandments were handed down. Anyway, part of it, if not most is explained.

As for having "set the standard for defense for incestuous fathers," that's really laughable!

If we believe criminals in jail - murderers, dope dealers, terrorists - practically all of them are innocents!

Passing the buck is a standard defense! Go ahead, check out a child's version of events when caught doing something wrong.

Actually, passing the buck is more prevalent now - thanks to the liberal minds! There is no accountability. Look at your statement as an example: trying to pass the buck to a character from thousands of years ago!

Standard my foot. Heck, they now even have an excuse for mothers to execute their own children in cold blood! If you support abortion, don't talk to me about "standards." Relativists have no set standards!

So, what's your story?

Edited August 29, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Yes, Betsy, of course. The daughters got him too drunk to know that he was having sex with his own children. Lot set the standard defense for incestuous fathers everywhere - "no, really, she wanted it!"

Melanie, I've been thinking about your comment above. Let's look at the scenario again about Lot and his daughters. You seem to have problems discerning.

Gen 19: 31-35

“Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.” So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.”

Given the circumstances how the girls practically drugged their father so to have their way with him, and yet in your view, it is still somehow Lot's fault!

Today, we can put Lot in the shoes of date-rape victims. They were drugged (same as Lot). The effect of the date-rape drug given to women, and the wine drank by Lot are the same. Women claim they had no conscious knowledge of the rape - same with Lot.

By your own logic or judgement of events/evidences - it's only logical to assume that you view

date-rape the same way. That it's not really rape? That date rape victims only played, "hard-to-get? or really wanted to have the sex anyway?"

I wanna see how a feminist relativistic mind contorts around this one.

Are you going to answer....or are you just a one-quip, hit-and-run wonder? A quip quip here and a quip quip there, everywhere a quip quip....

Edited August 29, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

The Persecuted Christians in America thread has kind of veered off-topic into discussing how awesome the Old Testament is. I'd like to transfer that discussion here, so that I can get back to tales of Christians being thrown to the lions in 2012 America. Tim Tebow is suffering as we speak!

To kick-start things a little, I present one of my favorite parts of the Old Testament: 2 Kings 2:23-25, Elisha's road-trip.

Feel the love! God sends two bears to maul 42 children to death because they called Elisha "bald-head". It's like Stephen Colbert told us, bears really are the #1 threat.

-k

Posted my reply in the new topic, "Questions, Misconceptions, Objections."

Edited August 29, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

deleted. wrong post.

Edited August 29, 2012 by betsy

[Melanie_]

Betsy, the story of Sodom is used consistently by Christians to say that consensual homosexuality is wrong. You even have gone so far as to say that raping young girls is the lesser evil. I will never agree with you on that, but I also recognize that you are far too entrenched in your beliefs to see why anyone else might find that repugnant.

As for Lot and his daughters, I know how the story goes. I just don’t buy that an old man is capable of getting so drunk that he doesn’t know that he is having sex with his own daughters, particularly when they are living in a cave, and haven’t seen another soul in a long time. I also don’t buy that 2 young girls are so worried about procreation that they decide to use their father as a stud. Far more likely that Lot was an incestuous old boot, living in a patriarchal society, who already had so little regard for his daughters’ bodies that offering them to strangers or taking advantage of them himself was all the same.

Just to be clear, I don’t believe any of this is real. But I do object to people taking ridiculous stories like this, and using them to justify discrimination against homosexuality today.

[betsy]

Betsy, the story of Sodom is used consistently by Christians to say that consensual homosexuality is wrong. You even have gone so far as to say that raping young girls is the lesser evil. I will never agree with you on that, but I also recognize that you are far too entrenched in your beliefs to see why anyone else might find that repugnant.

Like I said - as seen through the eyes of a non-believer. Of course I'm not forcing you to agree with me.

As for Lot and his daughters, I know how the story goes. I just don’t buy that an old man is capable of getting so drunk that he doesn’t know that he is having sex with his own daughters, particularly when they are living in a cave, and haven’t seen another soul in a long time.

That could also have been said about date-rape victims - if we follow your rationalization.

Why would you buy the story of an adult woman not only getting drugged - but also having been so careless, what with all the news media about this - thus finding herself in a position of having had sex without even knowing about it? C'mon....you gotta be kidding me.

The parallel is quite clear and precise - only the reversal of gender. Your feministic ideology is blinding you....

Anyway, are you an authority on drugs and alcohol?

Why? Have you ever imbibed the drug that you'd know for a fact they're truly out-of-it?

I don't know anyone who'd gone through date-rape - so I can't say for sure if they're truly out of it or not......BUT I've seen some who got so drunk and acted so foolishly and yet has no recollection of it the next day, whereas I know of some too, who had vague recollections of what had transpired. So I guess it depends on the individual how alcohol affects them.

I also don’t buy that 2 young girls are so worried about procreation that they decide to use their father as a stud. Far more likely that Lot was an incestuous old boot, living in a patriarchal society, who already had so little regard for his daughters’ bodies that offering them to strangers or taking advantage of them himself was all the same.

But this is not about what you buy or not. Yours, then, is just an opinion - and therefore shouldn't be taken as a serious argument.

To you, this is about gender.

Just to be clear, I don’t believe any of this is real. But I do object to people taking ridiculous stories like this, and using them to justify discrimination against homosexuality today.

Whether the story of Lot is true or fiction - the parallel with date-rape is still there.

Well, true or not, ironically what you're saying is that your feminist stance which is hinged on relativism - has no set standard at all! Therefore, your "indignation" over your so-called "discrimination" is plain ridiculous, and quite hypocritical.

You're the one who discriminates.

You think that under the same circumstances, Lot (being a man) should be held accountable for the "crime" committed by two females, and yet you wouldn't consider the same on date-rape cases. So you're either very confused (taken in by all the hype of feminism and naivete)...or blinded by your feminist ideology! Talk about reason!

Edited August 29, 2012 by betsy

[guyser]

That could also have been said about date-rape victims - if we follow your rationalization.

Why would you buy the story of an adult woman not only getting drugged - but also having been so careless, what with all the news media about this - thus finding herself in a position of having had sex without even knowing about it? C'mon....you gotta be kidding me.

The parallel is quite clear and precise - only the reversal of gender. Your feministic ideology is blinding you....

Pretty sure our resident feminist granny has an idea or two on male female anatomy and the workings of same.

I suggest you grab material, medical book, porn whatever, and study the workings because the 'parallel is NOT quite clear and precise.

A woman can have sex without being conscious , a man cannot.

[Guest American Woman]

A woman can have sex without being conscious , a man cannot.

A man can have an erection when unconscious, so why couldn't he have sex?

[guyser]

A man can have an erection when unconscious, so why couldn't he have sex?

From my understanding the mans dream states would dictate it, and if unconscious his stimulation would have to come from the mind (impossible to manipulate for the woman)not externally.

[Guest American Woman]

From my understanding the mans dream states would dictate it, and if unconscious his stimulation would have to come from the mind (impossible to manipulate for the woman)not externally.

But if a woman took advantage of a man's dream states sexually, wouldn't that constitute rape?

Edited to add:

I found this example of a woman having sex with a man while he was passed out and the woman got pregnant and sought child support:

-S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186 (Ala. Civ. App. 1996). In that case, the father testified that he went to a party at the mother's house. He had been drinking for several hours before he arrived, and had in fact gotten sick on the way to her house. At the mother's house, the father continued to drink, and the last think he remembered was getting sick again and his brother putting him in bed at the mother's house. The next morning, the father awoke in that same bed with only his shirt on. The father did not remember having sex with the mother, and he did not knowingly and purposely have sex with her.

The father's brother testified as to the same facts. A friend of both the mother testified as to the same facts, plus the fact that about two months after the party, the mother said she had sex with the father while he was "passed out" and that it saved her a trip to the sperm bank. Another friend testified that the mother had said she had sex with the father, "and he wasn't even aware of it."

A physician testified that it is possible for a man who is intoxicated to the point of losing consciousness may nevertheless have an erection and ejaculate; they are not conscious, voluntary activities.

link

Edited August 30, 2012 by American Woman

[BubberMiley]

A physician testified that it is possible for a man who is intoxicated to the point of losing consciousness may nevertheless have an erection and ejaculate; they are not conscious, voluntary activities.[/indent]

Then that's very obviously what happened. I didn't realize the bible included a pornography section though.

[Melanie_]

Ok, it seems it is possible. Probably incredibly rare, as this seems to be the only case Google can find, but still possible.

[Melanie_]

Like I said - as seen through the eyes of a non-believer. Of course I'm not forcing you to agree with me.

That could also have been said about date-rape victims - if we follow your rationalization.

Why would you buy the story of an adult woman not only getting drugged - but also having been so careless, what with all the news media about this - thus finding herself in a position of having had sex without even knowing about it? C'mon....you gotta be kidding me.

The parallel is quite clear and precise - only the reversal of gender. Your feministic ideology is blinding you....

Anyway, are you an authority on drugs and alcohol?

Why? Have you ever imbibed the drug that you'd know for a fact they're truly out-of-it?

I don't know anyone who'd gone through date-rape - so I can't say for sure if they're truly out of it or not......BUT I've seen some who got so drunk and acted so foolishly and yet has no recollection of it the next day, whereas I know of some too, who had vague recollections of what had transpired. So I guess it depends on the individual how alcohol affects them.

But this is not about what you buy or not. Yours, then, is just an opinion - and therefore shouldn't be taken as a serious argument.

To you, this is about gender.

Whether the story of Lot is true or fiction - the parallel with date-rape is still there.

Well, true or not, ironically what you're saying is that your feminist stance which is hinged on relativism - has no set standard at all! Therefore, your "indignation" over your so-called "discrimination" is plain ridiculous, and quite hypocritical.

You're the one who discriminates.

You think that under the same circumstances, Lot (being a man) should be held accountable for the "crime" committed by two females, and yet you wouldn't consider the same on date-rape cases. So you're either very confused (taken in by all the hype of feminism and naivete)...or blinded by your feminist ideology! Talk about reason!

Interesting how you've made huge assumptions about my position on so many things! You're jumping to conclusions here, based on what you think I would say, rather than on anything I actually said.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Melanie_

[betsy]

Ok, it seems it is possible. Probably incredibly rare, as this seems to be the only case Google can find, but still possible.

What's rareness got to do with it? Just because it happened to only 1 man, does that somehow lessen the crime (especially since the rape was done to a MAN and not the other way around)?

You probably envision a world ruled by amazons!

Seriously, Feminists like you do more harm to the sensible feminists fight for equality! Not only that, it's an insult to all sensible women! This kind of mentality only perpetuates the misconception that women are airheads!

That's why I'm so against your type of feminism! And I try to ridicule this kind of feminism that claims to speak for all women! You don't speak for me, or for others who think like me.

Phooey! You go out screaming bloody equality when you don't even have a clue what equality means.

Edited August 30, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

I've opened a new topic for the on-going discussion related to date-rape/Lot in Moral/Ethical section, titled, "Equality" according to Feminists.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21324

The discussion between Melanie, AW and others is getting quite interesting that I feel it deserves a section on its own. The string of discussion is re-posted in the new topic.

Edited August 30, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Betsy, the story of Sodom is used consistently by Christians to say that consensual homosexuality is wrong.

Speaking of Sodom....I think I'd posted a fact somewhere here that archeology had found what they believe was Sodom and Gomorrha.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/the-discovery-of-the-sin-cities-of-sodom-and-gomorrah.aspx

Edited August 30, 2012 by betsy

[Melanie_]

Oh goodie, another thread. Have fun over there.

Betsy, you’ve twisted what I’ve said to suit your purposes, but I expect that of you. My skepticism regarding the story of Lot was not based on a disregard for a man being sexually assaulted, but rather on my (apparently mistaken) belief that it was physically impossible for a man to perform sexually when he was blind drunk and passed out. American Woman has shown otherwise, and I’ve conceded the point. And yes, I still think it is a rare thing for a woman to use an unconscious man to become pregnant, but if it happens it is wrong.

[Melanie_]

Speaking of Sodom....I think I'd posted a fact somewhere here that archeology had found what they believe was Sodom and Gomorrha.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/the-discovery-of-the-sin-cities-of-sodom-and-gomorrah.aspx

Many Biblical places can be found on a map today... but that doesn't justify discrimination against homosexuals.

[bleeding heart]

Oh goodie, another thread. Have fun over there.

Betsy, you’ve twisted what I’ve said to suit your purposes, but I expect that of you. My skepticism regarding the story of Lot was not based on a disregard for a man being sexually assaulted, but rather on my (apparently mistaken) belief that it was physically impossible for a man to perform sexually when he was blind drunk and passed out. American Woman has shown otherwise, and I’ve conceded the point. And yes, I still think it is a rare thing for a woman to use an unconscious man to become pregnant, but if it happens it is wrong.

Rare?

That's putting it pretty generously...though your concession to pedants' arguments is appreciated and fair, your point is generally true, obviously. A handful of exceptions doesn't change that.

And daughters taking sexual advantage of their fathers?

That's about as rare a sexual crime as anyone is likely to find, anywhere.