Higgly Posted October 11, 2007 Report Posted October 11, 2007 Apparently Singapore is changing its tune. Here is a link to the front page of the Tuesday Singapore Straits Times in which former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew says ""Dumb Myanmar generals cannot last indefinitely". This guy is a very influential voice in South-East Asia. At one time Deng Xiao Peng was calling him up for advice on how to run China and is one of those who told Deng to open the Chinese economy. This is a sea change, if you are into reading tea leaves. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
jbg Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 It would help if your observations were at leats remotely grounded in reality. But your claim that the same people who trumpet the Palestinain cause ignore or even tacitly approve of Chian's occupation of Tibet or Burma's military regime is absurd on its face. It's just another cas eof you repeating a falsehood over and over in hopes it assumes the status of fact (much like your old saw about "Islam gets a free pass fom the media").They don't get a free pass? Really? Slavery, brutality, wars among Islam are barely mentioned, unless the US or Israel's involved somehow. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 They don't get a free pass? Really? Slavery, brutality, wars among Islam are barely mentioned, unless the US or Israel's involved somehow. Let's not bring up the entire history of Europe, shall we? Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
ScottSA Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Let's not bring up the entire history of Europe, shall we? Slavery in Europe? Where? Oh, do you mean the Islamic immigrants? Quote
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Slavery in Europe? Where? Oh, do you mean the Islamic immigrants? I believe it was referred to as feudalism. That aside, and this just in... China is now supporting UN Security Council resolutions critical of Burma. What did I tell you about Lee Kuan Yew? This guy is a key to understanding Asia, yet most North Americans do not even know he exists. Watch now for China to start leaning towards democracy... You heard it on MLW first, folks. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
ScottSA Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) I believe it was referred to as feudalism. That aside, and this just in... Oh, I thought you meant within the last century or eight. Not very relevant to now. Edited October 12, 2007 by ScottSA Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Oh, I thought you meant within the last century or eight. Not very relevant to now. feudalism...that's what then had in Tibet beore the Chinese ended the Theocracy. Religions have had a close relationship not only with violence but with economic exploitation. Indeed, it is often the economic exploitation that necessitates the violence. Such was the case with the Tibetan theocracy. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into manorial estates worked by serfs. These estates were owned by two social groups: the rich secular landlords and the rich theocratic lamas. Even a writer sympathetic to the old order allows that “a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches.†Much of the wealth was accumulated “through active participation in trade, commerce, and money lending.†10Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.†11 Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. 12 Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.†13 In fact. it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs. Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers. http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html I have never bought into the myth of Tibet Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Ladies and gentlemen, I give you thread hijacking in all its glory. If you don't know anything about Burma and SE Asia, then spare us your prevarication. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
M.Dancer Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Ladies and gentlemen, I give you thread hijacking in all its glory. If you don't know anything about Burma and SE Asia, then spare us your prevarication. I don't know about Burma, but the Prime Minister of Myanmar died Today. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 I don't know about Burma, but the Prime Minister of Myanmar died Today. Huh? Cite please. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
M.Dancer Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 Huh? Cite please. yeah, I checked. He's still dead Site Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) yeah, I checked. He's still deadSite An interesting development. "After a long illness" has many meanings in these circumstances, doesn't it? Especially for a guy who was only 59 and is referred to as a "figurehead". Nice find, Dancer. This is a very tastey morsel. Edited October 12, 2007 by Higgly Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
ScottSA Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 An interesting development. "After a long illness" has many meanings in these circumstances, doesn't it? Especially for a guy who was only 59 and is referred to as a "figurehead". Nice find, Dancer. This is a very tastey morsel. Ughhhh. Cannabalism? Quote
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Ughhhh. Cannabalism? Well, as they say in government, thanks for your input. Edited October 12, 2007 by Higgly Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
jbg Posted October 13, 2007 Report Posted October 13, 2007 What did I tell you about Lee Kuan Yew? This guy is a key to understanding Asia, yet most North Americans do not even know he exists.I know of Lee Kuan Yew, even though politically I'm an ignoramus. His and his father's democratic credentials are mixed, to say the least. Can you say "caning"?Watch now for China to start leaning towards democracy...Your inside source? I rather think that China is still, at bottom, a feudal aristocracy with a lot of Emporor-era stuff renamed. Old wine in new bottles. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Higgly Posted October 13, 2007 Report Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) I know of Lee Kuan Yew, even though politically I'm an ignoramus. His and his father's democratic credentials are mixed, to say the least. Can you say "caning"? Singapore is not the kind of democracy we are used to. In fact, it is more like the old style democracy that Mexico enjoyed under the PRE. The Peoples' Action Party (PAP) - founded by Lee Kuan Yew - has held power for a very long time. Ever Since Singapore declared independence. The PAP regularly engages in what I suppose you might call "soft repression". They use smear tactics to destroy their opponents. The people of Singapore ryely joke about "the PAP smear". Singapore is not an ideal democracy. However, that is not what my post was about. My post was about the influence of Lee Kuan Yew. He is widely considered an eminence grise and Singapore is looked upon in Asia as a pilot project. Especially by the Chinese. Note that the first sign of the tide turning against the dictators of Burma came from Mr. Lee. That was no accident. These guys stage manage everything. Your inside source? I rather think that China is still, at bottom, a feudal aristocracy with a lot of Emporor-era stuff renamed. Old wine in new bottles. China under the emporers was more an idiocracy. No doubt I am being carried away by the moment, but I am watching the China Congress and waiting for the tea leaves the party will leave. Will they be patting themselves on the back for the good work they have done to make the Olympics happen or will they be talking about work that still must be done? These old farts are subtle, but they don't bullshit. They don't have to. Edited October 13, 2007 by Higgly Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
jbg Posted October 14, 2007 Report Posted October 14, 2007 China under the emporers was more an idiocracy. No doubt I am being carried away by the moment, but I am watching the China Congress and waiting for the tea leaves the party will leave. Will they be patting themselves on the back for the good work they have done to make the Olympics happen or will they be talking about work that still must be done? These old farts are subtle, but they don't bullshit. They don't have to.I think any free country attending these Olympics is on a par with attending the 1936 Summer Olympics. As far as "idiocracy" Mao's China was little better. He just kept the famines and slaughters out of the news. Now their economic viability depends upon slavery.Still an idiocracy, in my book. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Higgly Posted October 14, 2007 Report Posted October 14, 2007 I think any free country attending these Olympics is on a par with attending the 1936 Summer Olympics. As far as "idiocracy" Mao's China was little better. He just kept the famines and slaughters out of the news. Now their economic viability depends upon slavery.Still an idiocracy, in my book. Oh to be sure. The "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" were terrible times for the Chinese. It it still not a very good place, but it is changing... Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
buffycat Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Taking this thread back into theme, here is an very interesting article about the whole affair - in a perspective which I haven't seen before. Seems our 'friends' at the "National Endowment for Democracy" have some interesting connections to recent events in Burma (recall these are the same folks who have sponsered rather unpopular changes in South America as well). The Geopolitical Stakes of the Saffron Revolution Some excerpts: First it's a fact which few will argue that the present military dictatorship of the reclusive General Than Shwe is right up there when it comes to world-class tyrannies. It's also a fact that Myanmar enjoys one of the world's lowest general living standards. Partly as a result of the ill-conceived 100% to 500% price hikes in gasoline and other fuels in August, inflation, the nominal trigger for the mass protests led by saffron-robed Buddhist monks, is unofficially estimated to have risen by 35%. Ironically the demand to establish "market" energy prices came from the IMF and World Bank.The UN estimates that the population of some 50 million inhabitants spend up to 70% of their monthly income on food alone. Ahhh, how nice of the IMF and World Bank eh? Imagine my (complete lack of) surprise! The major actorsThe tragedy of Myanmar, whose land area is about the size of George W Bush's Texas, is that its population is being used as a human stage prop in a drama scripted in Washington by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the George Soros Open Society Institute, Freedom House and Gene Sharp's Albert Einstein Institution, a US intelligence asset used to spark "non-violent" regime change around the world on behalf of the US strategic agenda. Some more familiar faces. Not pleasant ones either... In fact the US State Department admits to supporting the activities of the NED in Myanmar. The NED is a US government-funded "private" entity whose activities are designed to support US foreign policy objectives, doing today what the CIA did during the Cold War. As well, the NED funds Soros' Open Society Institute in fostering regime change in Myanmar. In an October 30, 2003 press release the State Department admitted, "The United States also supports organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy, the Open Society Institute and Internews, working inside and outside the region on a broad range of democracy promotion activities." It all sounds very self-effacing and noble of the State Department. Is it though?In reality the US State Department has recruited and trained key opposition leaders from numerous anti-government organizations in Myanmar. It has poured the relatively huge sum (for Myanmar) of more than $2.5 million annually into NED activities in promoting regime change in Myanmar since at least 2003. The US regime change effort, its Saffron Revolution, is being largely run, according to informed reports, out of the US Consulate General in bordering Chaing Mai, Thailand. There activists are recruited and trained, in some cases directly in the US, before being sent back to organize inside Myanmar. Well, these are the sorts of folks who like to keep their own riegns on things - and their economic ideals are those of the old 'Chicago Boys' style. We need only look at some of the puppet regimes in South America to see the usual results. A few of which, thankfully have been tossed out their petards and rightfully so. The question is, what would lead to such engagement in such a remote place as Myanmar?Geopolitical control seems to be the answer - control ultimately of the strategic sea lanes from the Persian Gulf to the South China Sea. The coastline of Myanmar provides naval access in the proximity of one of the world's most strategic water passages, the Strait of Malacca, the narrow ship passage between Malaysia and Indonesia. The Pentagon has been trying to militarize the region since September 11, 2001 on the argument of defending against possible terrorist attack. The US has managed to gain an airbase on Banda Aceh, the Sultan Iskandar Muda Air Force Base, on the northernmost tip of Indonesia. The governments of the region, including Myanmar, however, have adamantly refused US efforts to militarize the region. A glance at a map (click here) will confirm the strategic importance of Myanmar. The Strait of Malacca, linking the Indian and Pacific Oceans, is the shortest sea route between the Persian Gulf and China. It is the key chokepoint in Asia. More than 80% of all China's oil imports are shipped by tankers passing the Malacca Strait narrowest point is the Phillips Channel in the Singapore Strait, only 1.5 miles wide at its narrowest. Each day, more than 12 million barrels in oil supertankers pass through this narrow passage, most en route to the world's fastest-growing energy market, China, or to Japan. If the strait were closed, nearly half of the world's tanker fleet would be required to sail further. Closure would immediately raise freight rates worldwide. More than 50,000 vessels per year transit the Strait of Malacca. The region from Maynmar to Banda Aceh in Indonesia is fast becoming one of the world's most strategic chokepoints. Who controls those waters controls China's energy supplies. That strategic importance of Myanmar has not been lost on Beijing. I think this is a valid point wrt the US' interests in the region. Gas export today is Myanmar's most important source of income. Yadana was developed jointly by ElfTotal, Unocal, PTT-EP of Thailand and Myanmar's state MOGE, operated by ElfTotal. Yadana supplies some 20% of Thai natural gas needs.Today the Yetagun field is operated by Malaysia's Petronas along with MOGE, Japan's Nippon Oil and PTT-EP. The gas is piped onshore where it links to the Yadana pipeline. Gas from the Shwe field is to come on line in 2009. China and India have been in strong contention over the Shwe gas field reserves. I find it interesting that many other news sources seemed to ignore completely the influence of Burma's gas resouces. Certainly this must also play a role. US-backed regime change in Myanmar together with Washington's growing military power projection via India and other allies in the region is clearly a factor in Beijing's policy vis-a-vis Myanmar's present military junta. As is often the case these days, from Darfur to Caracas to Yangon, the rallying call of Washington for democracy ought to be taken with a large grain of salt. This part is interesting - since India seems now to be backing out of her nuclear deals with the US. Is she perhaps concerned about fulfilling all of the fine print wrt favours for the US? Quote "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" ~ Ghandi
Sulaco Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 feudalism...that's what then had in Tibet beore the Chinese ended the Theocracy.http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html I have never bought into the myth of Tibet Yes - Tibet's history has been whitewashed. Tibet was not the pretty place that we are currently being sold. On the other hand - The Han have a voracious apetite for land - and for assimilating other cultures via invasion and Hanitization. Quote Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who learn from history are doomed to a lifetime of reruns.
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 Further to BuffyCat's post... The US has had a military "place" at Sembawang Wharves in Singapore for some time. Note the conscientious use of the word "place" rather than "base" Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
capricorn Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 MPs vote to make Aung San Suu Kyi honorary citizen http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...017?hub=QPeriod Good on our politicians! Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Higgly Posted October 17, 2007 Report Posted October 17, 2007 I think it's great too, and I give Harper credit for referring to it as "Burma" in the House. But this is just flag waving, isn't it? More needs to be done. China has wavered. More pressure needs to be put on there. Especially before the Olympics. Singapore has come out balls-on against the junta and they are key. The rest of ASEAN is grumbling. Thailand must be feeling pretty lonely right now. Now is the time to move. More needs to be done. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
jbg Posted October 20, 2007 Report Posted October 20, 2007 feudalism...that's what then had in Tibet beore the Chinese ended the Theocracy.http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html I have never bought into the myth of Tibet Not that the Tibetans are better off under Communist feudalism than monkish feudalism. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Higgly Posted October 25, 2007 Report Posted October 25, 2007 BBC news reported tonight a televised meeting between Aung San Suu Kyi and the newly appointed junta liaison. They showed the two in the meeting and it looked like Suu Kyi was giving him a piece of her mind - it was evident that she was doing all the talking. At the end of the meeting, the two were shown standing side by side and it seemed that the guy was looking a little uncomfortable . The BBC reported that there was "quiet satisfaction in Beijing" over this development. How they would know that, I don't know, and they didn't clarify. This could be going somewhere. Quote "We have seen the enemy and he is us!". Pogo (Walt Kelly).
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