Returning from Iraq, the Damage Done

[fcgv]

There'd be no damage done if they'd had stayed home in the first place

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/03/03_100.html

[ScottSA]

There'd be no damage done if they'd had stayed home in the first place

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/03/03_100.html

Is there a point to this? Wars produce casualties. That's the nature of war. Posting a casualty as proof that the war is wrong is like posting a traffic accident and claiming cars are wrong. There is no correlation, even if you dress it up in pink and make it shout silly slogans.

[geoffrey]

I think fcgv missed a key part of his story:

I want to go back to the military. I want my old job back. I was infantry. We blew things up. I felt like my heart was in the right place over there.

All of his suffering, all of his loss, and he still feels like his work was worth something over there. What does that mean? How dare you second guess this man's ability to decide if his suffering is worth it. How are you qualified to make that statement?

I've never been to war. So I'll take these guy's words when they say they want back in the fight and they feel like they accomplish more than what their suffering cost them.

What a champ. This guy is a real deal hero.

[Michael Hardner]

How dare you second guess this man's ability to decide if his suffering is worth it.

Geoffrey,

This is a forum, wherein we discuss thoughts and ideas. There wouldn't be much point in a forum where we continually challenged each other for questioning someone else's deeply held beliefs.

[geoffrey]

I have no issue with someone questioning the war in Iraq or otherwise.

I have a huge problem with someone using images like this as a display against the war, when the solider's own words support his work. It's an insult to him and his injuries to do so. This thread is based on pure filth.

fcgv has no right at all to question this guy's judgement on how he compared his suffering to the good he was doing over there. He has absolutely no basis to do so.

Disgusting.

[Army Guy]

I'll second that Geoffrey, it is disgusting, there was no debate offered just a ugly statement.

What do you tell a family that has lost a member to a drunk driver, what do you tell a victim of rape, what do you tell the family of a police officer killed in the line of duty....

"they would be alive today if they'd just stayed home in the first place"

[moderateamericain]

I'll second that Geoffrey, it is disgusting, there was no debate offered just a ugly statement.

What do you tell a family that has lost a member to a drunk driver, what do you tell a victim of rape, what do you tell the family of a police officer killed in the line of duty....

"they would be alive today if they'd just stayed home in the first place"

Every single day, every day, I want to wake up and throw on my BDU's and hump my rifle around. But I know its not gonna happen, it doesnt make that feeling go away.

[Army Guy]

moderateamericain:

Every single day, every day, I want to wake up and throw on my BDU's and hump my rifle around. But I know its not gonna happen, it doesnt make that feeling go away.

There are somedays when i do question WHY even bother, when some tree hugger, makes a comment .....but until they've walked in my boots, and understand why i do what i do, i say #### them, feed em rice. i don't owe those pricks anything...

To those that have served, those are the ones i owe.

[Higgly]

moderateamericain:

There are somedays when i do question WHY even bother...

If you are here, maybe you bother because you think it might be possible to state your case so convincingly that you might convert somebody to your viewpoint.

This is the core of democracy and it's best weapon: free speech.

[Guest American Woman]

I have no issue with someone questioning the war in Iraq or otherwise.

I have a huge problem with someone using images like this as a display against the war, when the solider's own words support his work. It's an insult to him and his injuries to do so. This thread is based on pure filth.

fcgv has no right at all to question this guy's judgement on how he compared his suffering to the good he was doing over there. He has absolutely no basis to do so.

Disgusting.

I question his judgement. He is just a mortal, after all. And a young mortal at that. So anyone has the right to question his judgement. I wonder if he'll think 'getting to blow things up' was worth it in the long run. I wonder if he'll reaize what the consequence of 'blowing things up' was-- that it resulted in the death of so many innocents. I'd like to hear what he has to say ten, fifteen, twenty years from now.

I found the comments of these wounded vets so upsetting that I refrained from commenting in this thread up until now. But most of these troops were quite young, and it's all too obvious at least some of them hadn't had the best life before Iraq, so I find it very bothersome that they think going there, and suffering these injuries, was 'the hightlight of their lives,' 'opportunities no one else would have,' etc.

I feel for these young men. I feel for them so much it hurts. But I feel for all the innocent Iraqis who have died, too. All the little babies who have suffered. All the children who lost parents. All the parents who lost children. And a 21 year old generally just hasn't experienced enough of life to know if he's doing the right thing or not. They very likely could see things differently down the road. Like I said, I'd like to ask these same people how they feel a few years from now.

Furthermore, I know that eveyone who served in Iraq doesn't feel the same way. I know that some young men are having a very difficult time dealing with the death of innocent Iraqi civilians, knowing they played a part in it, knowing that we went to war on false/exaggerated information. Would you question them? Would you question their judgement?

Edited September 25, 2007 by American Woman

[Army Guy]

Higgly:

If you are here, maybe you bother because you think it might be possible to state your case so convincingly that you might convert somebody to your viewpoint.

I orginally joined this forum to do just that, believe it or not, but most Canadians have no idea, what our military does in thier name, nor do they want to know. some like to brag and thump thier chests, but most show no interest. What Canadians want to do is piont thier fingers and blame someone or something for our problems or actions, which i'm surprised we have not made it a national sport.

This is the core of democracy and it's best weapon: free speech.

Yes free speech what a wonderful thing, if it is used as it was intended, in this case slander was not the intention...

[Army Guy]

American Woman:

I question his judgement.

, Do you question everyones judgement...perhaps it is not his judgement we should be questioning but the judgement of our countries leaders. we don't question the garbage man about his judgements, or why our land fills are overfilled. do we...

I wonder if he'll think 'getting to blow things up' was worth it in the long run. I wonder if he'll reaize what the consequence of 'blowing things up' was-- that it resulted in the death of so many innocents. I'd like to hear what he has to say ten, fifteen, twenty years from now.

Every soldier knows the consquences of blowing things up. that part is drilled into every soldiers training, what is not drilled into his countrymans brains is the results of deploying thier soldiers into combat...and what all that entails...we have the luxery of debating facts and what if's, all day, soldiers routinely are forced to make split second decisions, every day...and not all of them are going to be good ones...And he will have to live with that for the rest of his life...that is part of being a soldier, living with the nightmares our country has asked us to do...THAT is a fact of WAR, nothing you do is going to change that "with exception of not deploying soldiers".

I found the comments of these wounded vets so upsetting that I refrained from commenting in this thread up until now. But most of these troops were quite young, and it's all too obvious at least some of them hadn't had the best life before Iraq, so I find it very bothersome that they think going there, and suffering these injuries, was 'the hightlight of their lives,' 'opportunities no one else would have,' etc.

Thats because you don't understand the soldiers ethos, in order to live and function in combat, one can not be the guy next door...one has to believe in what they are doing is the best for them, thier families and country...and to most, to be able to serve your country is a honor and privilage , that is not available to all...The military has to enforce this etho's to get men and women to accomplish combat taskings that will end in someone dying.

I feel for these young men. I feel for them so much it hurts. But I feel for all the innocent Iraqis who have died, too. All the little babies who have suffered. All the children who lost parents. All the parents who lost children. And a 21 year old generally just hasn't experienced enough of life to know if he's doing the right thing or not. They very likely could see things differently down the road. Like I said, I'd like to ask these same people how they feel a few years from now.

Let me ask you this question with all your life experiance do you think it would prepare you for combat and events that happen in war. These kids we are talking about have been doing this jobs for thousands of years, it is how man fights.

Nothing we every experiance in normal every day life will prepare anyone for a war zone....so this piont is mout

They will see things differently down the road, because this war experiance will change them more than any other life event will. Again everything a soldier does in combat he will have to live with the rest of his life...another cross they carry for thier country.

Furthermore, I know that eveyone who served in Iraq doesn't feel the same way. I know that some young men are having a very difficult time dealing with the death of innocent Iraqi civilians, knowing they played a part in it, knowing that we went to war on false/exaggerated information. Would you question them? Would you question their judgement?

No, why should they feel the same way each soldier will have different experiances and different reactions to those experiances...And no i would not question them, because they have walked in my boots, and know i would not question there judgement has the have earned thier right to voice thier opinions. all that said and done, they have no right to judge others in a bad light, they can sing all day long about thier exploits, or thier opinions about the war...

[moderateamericain]

American Woman:

, Do you question everyones judgement...perhaps it is not his judgement we should be questioning but the judgement of our countries leaders. we don't question the garbage man about his judgements, or why our land fills are overfilled. do we...

Every soldier knows the consquences of blowing things up. that part is drilled into every soldiers training, what is not drilled into his countrymans brains is the results of deploying thier soldiers into combat...and what all that entails...we have the luxery of debating facts and what if's, all day, soldiers routinely are forced to make split second decisions, every day...and not all of them are going to be good ones...And he will have to live with that for the rest of his life...that is part of being a soldier, living with the nightmares our country has asked us to do...THAT is a fact of WAR, nothing you do is going to change that "with exception of not deploying soldiers".

Thats because you don't understand the soldiers ethos, in order to live and function in combat, one can not be the guy next door...one has to believe in what they are doing is the best for them, thier families and country...and to most, to be able to serve your country is a honor and privilage , that is not available to all...The military has to enforce this etho's to get men and women to accomplish combat taskings that will end in someone dying.

Let me ask you this question with all your life experiance do you think it would prepare you for combat and events that happen in war. These kids we are talking about have been doing this jobs for thousands of years, it is how man fights.

Nothing we every experiance in normal every day life will prepare anyone for a war zone....so this piont is mout

They will see things differently down the road, because this war experiance will change them more than any other life event will. Again everything a soldier does in combat he will have to live with the rest of his life...another cross they carry for thier country.

No, why should they feel the same way each soldier will have different experiances and different reactions to those experiances...And no i would not question them, because they have walked in my boots, and know i would not question there judgement has the have earned thier right to voice thier opinions. all that said and done, they have no right to judge others in a bad light, they can sing all day long about thier exploits, or thier opinions about the war...

Nobody I know that saw combat sings about there experiences.. I've never once metioned mine here nor will I ever. Other than the fact that I did serve.

[Rue]

There'd be no damage done if they'd had stayed home in the first place

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/03/03_100.html

Yes it was a perfect country. Full of harmony between all its peoples. No problems at all. Perfect. Utopia. Yes I remember the days of Sadaam (Papa) Hussein. Ah the trains ran on time and so did those Kurds when we shot at them. Ah the good old days.

Damn those allies. Had they stayed at home and let Hitler do what he wanted things would have been swell. You know guys with funny mustaches and bad hair cuts and who are into gas and mass murder oh say like Adolph, Joe, Sadaam, why can't they be just left alone. Things were fine.

Kurds Ukrainians, Jews, who the f..ck cares. Things were just fine.

Bah. Go away.

[Rue]

"being a soldier, living with the nightmares our country has asked us to do..."

..and it is precisely because of that I bloody well will listen TO YOU

Edited October 3, 2007 by Rue

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman:

, Do you question everyones judgement...perhaps it is not his judgement we should be questioning but the judgement of our countries leaders. we don't question the garbage man about his judgements, or why our land fills are overfilled. do we...

Army Guy,

First I want to clarify that I most definitely do not question these soldiers' judgement regarding being at war; I most definitely reserve that judgement for my country's leaders, as you said. What I question is their judgement saying it was worth it, worth their injuries; I question their judgement saying they'd go back if they could. That's why I said I'd like to know how they feel 5, 10, 15 years down the line.

Every soldier knows the consquences of blowing things up. that part is drilled into every soldiers training, what is not drilled into his countrymans brains is the results of deploying thier soldiers into combat...and what all that entails...we have the luxery of debating facts and what if's, all day, soldiers routinely are forced to make split second decisions, every day...and not all of them are going to be good ones...And he will have to live with that for the rest of his life...that is part of being a soldier, living with the nightmares our country has asked us to do...THAT is a fact of WAR, nothing you do is going to change that "with exception of not deploying soldiers".

I understand all that you are saying. That's why I believe war should be only a last resort. It's why I believe our military should only be used for defensive purposes. It's why I don't believe in starting wars. It's why I don't believe in cluster bombs or daisy cutters or dropping bombs on civilians.

Thats because you don't understand the soldiers ethos, in order to live and function in combat, one can not be the guy next door...one has to believe in what they are doing is the best for them, thier families and country...and to most, to be able to serve your country is a honor and privilage , that is not available to all...The military has to enforce this etho's to get men and women to accomplish combat taskings that will end in someone dying.

I think the military takes advantage of the young. That's what I was saying. I think that's why such a large percentage of our troops is so young. They can be more easily swayed into believing what an honor it is to serve; they are more likely to be naive and believe all that their government tells them; they are more likely to look at the money/opportunities offered and believe that nothing will happen to them-- youth tends to believe they are invincible, that bad things happen to others. I think you sort of agree with what I am saying since you said "the military has to enforce this etho's to get men and women to acopmplish combat taskings that will end in someone dying" (emphasis mine) So it's a very conscious thing the military is doing, "getting them" to do what they want them to do, and I believe these young injured soldiers are still in that mindset. What happens when they lose that frame of mind? How will they feel then? That's why I question their judgement.

Let me ask you this question with all your life experiance do you think it would prepare you for combat and events that happen in war. These kids we are talking about have been doing this jobs for thousands of years, it is how man fights. Nothing we every experiance in normal every day life will prepare anyone for a war zone....so this piont is mout

No, nothing would prepare we for being in a war. I never said otherwise. So I agree with you here.

They will see things differently down the road, because this war experiance will change them more than any other life event will. Again everything a soldier does in combat he will have to live with the rest of his life...another cross they carry for thier country.

It's not necessarily "for their country." I believe it's sometimes "for those who make the decsion to go to war without having any loved ones there themselves" because "they" profit/benefit from the war. I'm not benifitting from the war in Iraq one little bit. These troops are not fighting for me. Sadly, and it truly does pain me to say this, I don't think they are "fighting for our country."

No, why should they feel the same way each soldier will have different experiances and different reactions to those experiances...And no i would not question them, because they have walked in my boots, and know i would not question there judgement has the have earned thier right to voice thier opinions. all that said and done, they have no right to judge others in a bad light, they can sing all day long about thier exploits, or thier opinions about the war...

Of course they've earned the right to have an opinon. I'd never so much as suggest otherwise. But I have the right to question their judgement, too, and that's the idea that I was responding to.

Edited October 3, 2007 by American Woman