Where your federal tax money goes...

[White Doors]

Prove that megacorporations contribute anything to our economy. You may include what their workers contribute to the economy, but must balance that accounting with the profits that go to off-shore tax havens. Prove that there is any residual benefit to the Canadian economy.

Short answer ... YOU CAN'T ... because the profits sucked out, the taxes forgiven, the environmental desecration left behind, etc. all result in a HUGE loss to our economy.

I work for one of the largest corporations in the country.

With me so far?

They pay me. I live in Canada. I have bought a house in Canada.

I pay taxes in Canada. I invest in my corporations shares which are taxed in Canada both on the corporate side and on the personal side. With my income from this MEGAKORPORASHUN I buy all manner of house hold things which I pay taxes on and keep people in business through their sales to me. I also am saving for my retirement by investing in other companies.

There. That is one of the many residula benefits.

let's try and keep the conversation above the kindergarten level shall we?

I have PROVED your assertion.

You are wrong.

period.

[White Doors]

Yes, but not everyone owns stocks. I think the people who believe in corporate taxes are those who don't own stocks (which also are probably poorer people), and those who want to eliminate corporate taxes own stocks.

Everyone pays into the CPP. Therefore everyone owns stocks.

[Posit]

There would be a lot of Canadians without jobs if these corporations didn't exist.

That is a huge myth propagated by your slave masters -The Corporation. The fact is in most of Canada the goods and services offered by these large corps are available from small and medium size businesses. And what isn't readily available such as electronic items would be available if corporations no longer produced them, and the market still demanded them. The fact is that corporations exist now for only on reason - to take in income and investment, turn a profit and hand those profits back to their major shareholders. No one corporation cares about the quality of the products or services they offer except unless it hurts their bottom line. If they can produce crap and sell crap, there is no incentive to make it any better.

If Dot.com corporations got the boot, there is no question there would be mass unemployment. However, those who depend on computers for their livelyhood would likely starve since few of them have an noticeable skills beyond pecking keyboards for a living.

The underground construction economy would rival the total income and profits derived from corporations. Add to that the the overall construction, repair and local services and there is nothing that contributes more to the Canadian economy. Corporations are vampires and all that they pass on into the Canadian economy are their dis-eases, stress and poverty-making ideas.

[White Doors]

Thought I might just pick out some tidbits here.

When you have to resort to language like this, you really should check your sanity.

your slave masters -The Corporation

However, those who depend on computers for their livelyhood would likely starve since few of them have an noticeable skills beyond pecking keyboards for a living.

The underground construction economy would rival the total income and profits derived from corporations

Corporations are vampires and all that they pass on into the Canadian economy are their dis-eases, stress and poverty-making ideas.

One wonders what the meaning on 'eases' is?

Seriously, is this all that the 'new left' has to offer us?

sad comment on the educational system?

Edited August 31, 2007 by White Doors

[geoffrey]

As for corporate taxation ... I think those in the upper middle would like even more to see it increased, to take the disproportionate burden off them that is created by the artificial ceiling for top income tax bracket ... $250,000 taxed the same as multi-millions?? Give me a break!

$250,000 is upper middle?

Prove that megacorporations contribute ANYTHING to the Canadian economy.

Umm... prove that they don't?

Do you have a job, or does money just fall from the sky? Last time I checked, the vast majority of us were paid by corporations. Your retirement, like it or not, will be funded on the profits of these corporations.

Prove that megacorporations contribute anything to our economy. You may include what their workers contribute to the economy, but must balance that accounting with the profits that go to off-shore tax havens. Prove that there is any residual benefit to the Canadian economy.

I'm not arguing accounting and finance with someone that quite clearly understands nothing off the process, but last time I checked, corporations provide the vast majority of employment. That's a big enough contribution. A slip of paper every two weeks that puts food on your table is quite enough, I think.

Corporations are vampires and all that they pass on into the Canadian economy are their dis-eases, stress and poverty-making ideas.

Tell that to the Cubans that flee communism to Florida everyday, with the dream, of maybe one day... working for a corporation.

Edited August 31, 2007 by geoffrey

[jennie]

I work for one of the largest corporations in the country.

With me so far?

They pay me. I live in Canada. I have bought a house in Canada.

I pay taxes in Canada. I invest in my corporations shares which are taxed in Canada both on the corporate side and on the personal side. With my income from this MEGAKORPORASHUN I buy all manner of house hold things which I pay taxes on and keep people in business through their sales to me. I also am saving for my retirement by investing in other companies.

There. That is one of the many residula benefits.

let's try and keep the conversation above the kindergarten level shall we?

I have PROVED your assertion.

You are wrong.

period.

How does the money put into the country balance with the money taken out of the country and the cost of environmental cleaup? That is my question. You have answered only one part of it.

I am curious whether anyone has this information.

Edited September 1, 2007 by jennie

[Michael Bluth]

The fact is in most of Canada the goods and services offered by these large corps are available from small and medium size businesses. And what isn't readily available such as electronic items would be available if corporations no longer produced them, and the market still demanded them.

The market demands lower prices that lead to the likes of wal-mart flourishing while mom and pop type outlets struggle.

Of course there is a place for SMEs in our economy. But they couldn't replace the large corporations in a number of areas with very high costs of entry.

If Canada outlawed the large corporations, heaven forbid, the small manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete against international competition.

Would that be the next step? Banning trade with large corporations from foreign countries?

[Posit]

How does the money put into the country balance with the money taken out of the country and the cost of environmental cleaup? That is my question. You have answered only one part of it.

I am curious whether anyone has this information.

That's the fundemental problem with whitedoor's POV. They forget that everything has a cost and are apt to put what is out of sight, out of mind. The environmental cost to raping the earth for minerals and resources to make the ~things~ whitedoors likes to play with has long been forgotten. Not only do we have the environmental damages from production but also the pollution those ~thing~ produce and the waste stream the packaging, and the end product go. Then we have noise pollution as well. As of the present few corporations have ever been taken to task at repairing that damage....and if they were there would be little in ht e way of profits for his investment schemes. Rather houses that are built because they are newer than the older ones, developments, commercial plazas and office buildings trying to entice people and businesses away from their present lodgings and the vehicles used to go from one place to another all damage the environment, steal good farm land and contaminate water sheds that support streams and rivers and eventually our drinking water.

Add it all up whitedoors and then see if we are profiting from your narrow POV or if your net is simply a numbers magic act.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Posit

[Posit]

The market demands lower prices that lead to the likes of wal-mart flourishing while mom and pop type outlets struggle.

Of course there is a place for SMEs in our economy. But they couldn't replace the large corporations in a number of areas with very high costs of entry.

If Canada outlawed the large corporations, heaven forbid, the small manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete against international competition.

Would that be the next step? Banning trade with large corporations from foreign countries?

Hypothetically speaking, if the government banned large corporations, it would have to include international ones as well.

However, the "market" doesn't demand low prices. They demand "fair prices" and most people who go to farmers markets, or shop at downtown personal service shops are willing to pay a little more than the supermarkets and department store prices for local and better quality items PLUS they recognize the bonus in shopping close to home with people who are your neighbours. All the imported crap should never have been allowed in this country IMO and those things that meet the standards should be tapped with a duty that helps maintain a competitive market with Canadian products. I am well aware that this won't happen - not because it isn't viable or reasonable, but because it interferes with those investment profits whitedoors cherishes. And presently because corporations are protected by politicians like sacred cows it is difficult to change their eating habits. They continue to milk this country and bottom entry investors for everything they can.

I buy local and support my local farmers. I freeze, can and dry my own produce for winter months. Dollar for dollar, my methods are about 25% less expensive than using the energy to drive to the supermarket, to purchase chemically enhanced and fertilized produce that have been trucked thousands of miles. Plus I have the bonus of knowing where all my food comes from be it the organically raised beef we eat, to fresh same day picked eggs and corn, to maple syrup and honey. Even paying a little more for the product is still less than it would cost to drive to the store for the same items.

Small manufacturers would quickly fill the needs of society and if one wasn't able to commit to the demand, another and another would start up to produce the same things. They would be employing locally and profits of the company stay locally. That is what drives a community's (and ultimately the provinces and Canada's) economics - money staying local and profits redistributed locally.

The investment schemes operated by large corporations is slight of hand pyramid scheme. Profits keep leaving the company and the only way for a company to survive such an output is to receive a greater than equal input on the other side. This is done by encouraging new investors by showing that the company is doing well. And when the company reaches its epic, they report losses that gives upper level investors the opportunity to sell high while causing millions of dollars in losses for the lower end investors. Then when the market value of the stock falls to with a reasonable value, those high end rollers re-invest causing the whole pyramid scheme to start all over again.

Anyone notice none of this has to do with the production, the cost of goods or the costs of employment. All of this is done electronically with a machine moving or an employee screwing a bolt? That's why corporations do none of us any good. They are leeches on society and are more apt to corrupt and backrupt us than they are to contribute to our well-being.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Posit

[GostHacked]

Here is something for you all to look into. The Bank of Canada is a privately owned corporation. The Government of Canada borrows money from this private bank, with interest owed to the bank on the money borrowed.

The National debt is the loan plus interest. The National debt is owed to a private corporation.

Your taxes are paying the interest on a loan to a private banking corporation.

[geoffrey]

Your taxes are paying the interest on a loan to a private banking corporation.

What are you talking about? The vast majority of Canada's debt exists in bonds issued to individual and institutional investors (investing on individuals behalf) with Canadian interests.

At least get the facts right before you manage to twist them.

[Pliny]

Hypothetically speaking, if the government banned large corporations, it would have to include international ones as well.

However, the "market" doesn't demand low prices. They demand "fair prices" and most people who go to farmers markets, or shop at downtown personal service shops are willing to pay a little more than the supermarkets and department store prices for local and better quality items PLUS they recognize the bonus in shopping close to home with people who are your neighbours. All the imported crap should never have been allowed in this country IMO and those things that meet the standards should be tapped with a duty that helps maintain a competitive market with Canadian products. I am well aware that this won't happen - not because it isn't viable or reasonable, but because it interferes with those investment profits whitedoors cherishes. And presently because corporations are protected by politicians like sacred cows it is difficult to change their eating habits. They continue to milk this country and bottom entry investors for everything they can.

I buy local and support my local farmers. I freeze, can and dry my own produce for winter months. Dollar for dollar, my methods are about 25% less expensive than using the energy to drive to the supermarket, to purchase chemically enhanced and fertilized produce that have been trucked thousands of miles. Plus I have the bonus of knowing where all my food comes from be it the organically raised beef we eat, to fresh same day picked eggs and corn, to maple syrup and honey. Even paying a little more for the product is still less than it would cost to drive to the store for the same items.

Small manufacturers would quickly fill the needs of society and if one wasn't able to commit to the demand, another and another would start up to produce the same things. They would be employing locally and profits of the company stay locally. That is what drives a community's (and ultimately the provinces and Canada's) economics - money staying local and profits redistributed locally.

The investment schemes operated by large corporations is slight of hand pyramid scheme. Profits keep leaving the company and the only way for a company to survive such an output is to receive a greater than equal input on the other side. This is done by encouraging new investors by showing that the company is doing well. And when the company reaches its epic, they report losses that gives upper level investors the opportunity to sell high while causing millions of dollars in losses for the lower end investors. Then when the market value of the stock falls to with a reasonable value, those high end rollers re-invest causing the whole pyramid scheme to start all over again.

Anyone notice none of this has to do with the production, the cost of goods or the costs of employment. All of this is done electronically with a machine moving or an employee screwing a bolt? That's why corporations do none of us any good. They are leeches on society and are more apt to corrupt and backrupt us than they are to contribute to our well-being.

The gummerment oughtta do sumpin about that.

[jennie]

The market demands lower prices that lead to the likes of wal-mart flourishing while mom and pop type outlets struggle.

Of course there is a place for SMEs in our economy. But they couldn't replace the large corporations in a number of areas with very high costs of entry.

If Canada outlawed the large corporations, heaven forbid, the small manufacturers wouldn't be able to compete against international competition.

Would that be the next step? Banning trade with large corporations from foreign countries?

Who said ban?

I think some 'size' controls are in order though. Too much concentration of wealth in too few hands is not a healthy economy.

I think we should maybe start with the media.

Edited September 2, 2007 by jennie

[Pliny]

What are you talking about? The vast majority of Canada's debt exists in bonds issued to individual and institutional investors (investing on individuals behalf) with Canadian interests.

At least get the facts right before you manage to twist them.

I believe Gosthacked is correct. Bonds are not the vast majority of Canada's debt. The national debt, somewhere around 600 billion dollars, is owed primarily to the Bank of Canada. Investor's buying bonds are banking on the stability of the nation and it's government. Bonds, from my understanding, are more or less collateral for the government to borrow money from the Bank of Canada today. People buying bonds are basically paying off what the government has borrowed. Since the government does not make money and has none of its own where else can it get it? It gets it by borrowing it and using it's ability to commit future production of the nation to the repayment of what the government spends, with interest I might add. Hopefully, what the government can collect in future taxes will pay for what it borrows.

If you research the ownership of the corporation of the Bank of Canada you will find there is a single share owned by a single shareholder held in trust by the Government of Canada. Unlike the Federal Reserve in the United States which has several private shareholders. It is mostly owned by private banking interests. The Bank of Canada's single share is owned by a single interested party. Who might that be?

[Pliny]

That's the fundemental problem with whitedoor's POV. They forget that everything has a cost and are apt to put what is out of sight, out of mind. The environmental cost to raping the earth for minerals and resources to make the ~things~ whitedoors likes to play with has long been forgotten. Not only do we have the environmental damages from production but also the pollution those ~thing~ produce and the waste stream the packaging, and the end product go. Then we have noise pollution as well. As of the present few corporations have ever been taken to task at repairing that damage....and if they were there would be little in ht e way of profits for his investment schemes. Rather houses that are built because they are newer than the older ones, developments, commercial plazas and office buildings trying to entice people and businesses away from their present lodgings and the vehicles used to go from one place to another all damage the environment, steal good farm land and contaminate water sheds that support streams and rivers and eventually our drinking water.

Add it all up whitedoors and then see if we are profiting from your narrow POV or if your net is simply a numbers magic act.

Uhhh....his narrow POV allows for future generations to exist in whatever future they can create. Your POV allows for us to quietly make our exit from the earth and generally just f off.

[Michael Bluth]

Who said ban?

I think some 'size' controls are in order though. Too much concentration of wealth in too few hands is not a healthy economy.

I think we should maybe start with the media.

Banning is the logical conclusion to your suggestions.

If it's market be damned, then follow it to the end.

Once Canadian korporayshuns are out of the game the multi-nationals would step in unless they were banned...

[geoffrey]

I believe Gosthacked is correct. Bonds are not the vast majority of Canada's debt. The national debt, somewhere around 600 billion dollars, is owed primarily to the Bank of Canada.

No.

Investor's buying bonds are banking on the stability of the nation and it's government. Bonds, from my understanding, are more or less collateral for the government to borrow money from the Bank of Canada today. People buying bonds are basically paying off what the government has borrowed. Since the government does not make money and has none of its own where else can it get it? It gets it by borrowing it and using it's ability to commit future production of the nation to the repayment of what the government spends, with interest I might add. Hopefully, what the government can collect in future taxes will pay for what it borrows.

So we give the government cash as collateral for some mysterious loans from the Crown corporation that is the Bank of Canada (completely owned by the government that is borrowing money using it's own cash from itself as collateral)?

Pass me some of what your smoking tonight my friend.

The Bank of Canada's single share is owned by a single interested party. Who might that be?

It's the Ministery of Finance.

[Pliny]

delete

Edited September 2, 2007 by Pliny

[Pliny]

No.

So we give the government cash as collateral for some mysterious loans from the Crown corporation that is the Bank of Canada (completely owned by the government that is borrowing money using it's own cash from itself as collateral)?

Pass me some of what your smoking tonight my friend.

It's the Ministery of Finance.

Suit yourself.

No. The Ministry of Finance is wrong. Guess again.

The government has no cash of it's own. If it were borrowing money using its own cash from itself as collateral why would it borrow it with interest? Seems odd it would charge us interest on money it doesn't borrow? In fact why would it borrow and how does it figure it has a debt? Where does the interest go, nowhere? And if it receives the interest on the debt we would soon be able to pay off our national debt just by paying ourselves the interest. It isn't the governments debt in the first place. It is the taxpayers debt. The lender is the shareholder in the Bank of Canada.

[GostHacked]

geoffry

So we give the government cash as collateral for some mysterious loans from the Crown corporation that is the Bank of Canada (completely owned by the government that is borrowing money using it's own cash from itself as collateral)?

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/are.html

The Bank was founded in 1934 as a privately owned corporation. In 1938, it became a Crown corporation belonging to the federal government. Since that time, the Minister of Finance has held the entire share capital issued by the Bank. Ultimately, the Bank is owned by the people of Canada.

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/history.html

During the first fifty years of Confederation, Canada showed little interest in the establishment of a central bank. It was 1913 before Parliament formally discussed the subject, prompted at that time by W. F. MacLean, MP for South York. His plan, which called for a privately owned national bank subject to government control, was dismissed. Prime Minister R. L. Borden saw "no present necessity" for such a bank.

The Federal Reserve is also a private owned corporate bank. Established in 1913 http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/fract/

[Posit]

Uhhh....his narrow POV allows for future generations to exist in whatever future they can create. Your POV allows for us to quietly make our exit from the earth and generally just f off.

No my POV guarantees that we leave our children and the generations to come a legacy of clean water, clean earth and moderate income. whitedoors suggestions will leave them all in poverty, pollution and destruction. Do you have any idea why city gangs arise out of impoverished neighbourhoods?

[geoffrey]

You guys are clueless on the matter, I don't even know why I'm bothing discussing this with you. Take a course or do some further research, please. A little knowledge is such a dangerous things in the hands of people that think they know better.

Suit yourself.

No. The Ministry of Finance is wrong. Guess again.

Um... your wrong.

"The Bank was founded in 1934 as a privately owned corporation. In 1938, it became a Crown corporation belonging to the federal government. Since that time, the Minister of Finance has held the entire share capital issued by the Bank. Ultimately, the Bank is owned by the people of Canada."

Source: http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/are.html

10 seconds of research. Moving on.

The government has no cash of it's own. If it were borrowing money using its own cash from itself as collateral why would it borrow it with interest? Seems odd it would charge us interest on money it doesn't borrow? In fact why would it borrow and how does it figure it has a debt? Where does the interest go, nowhere? And if it receives the interest on the debt we would soon be able to pay off our national debt just by paying ourselves the interest. It isn't the governments debt in the first place. It is the taxpayers debt. The lender is the shareholder in the Bank of Canada.

Not at all. Very little is borrowed by anyone from the BoC. It's called the lender of last resort. It's in place to bail out banks in the case of a run. Most of the cash raised by the Federal and Provincial governments is in the form of bonds. This is truth.

The BoC issues treasury bills which insures liquidity of the short term money supply. Don't confuse these with government bonds. The complex arrangements there are far beyond the scope of this discussion.

The government has plenty of cash of it's own. When I sign wires for income tax payments at work, they don't go to the Bank of Canada.

Where are you getting this crap from?

geoffry

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/are.html

http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/history.html

The Federal Reserve is also a private owned corporate bank. Established in 1913 http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/fract/

Ya, thanks for proving my case that it's government owned and established not to lend money to the government.

--

Here is the BoC annual report 2006 for you: http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/annual...report_2006.pdf

[Pliny]

No my POV guarantees that we leave our children and the generations to come a legacy of clean water, clean earth and moderate income. whitedoors suggestions will leave them all in poverty, pollution and destruction.

Wrong. your POV will leave everyone in poverty, pollution and destruction. Whitedoors POV will only leave some people in poverty, pollution and destruction.

Do you have any idea why city gangs arise out of impoverished neighbourhoods?

Yes. Public education.

[Pliny]

You guys are clueless on the matter, I don't even know why I'm bothing discussing this with you. Take a course or do some further research, please. A little knowledge is such a dangerous things in the hands of people that think they know better.

Um... your wrong.

"The Bank was founded in 1934 as a privately owned corporation. In 1938, it became a Crown corporation belonging to the federal government. Since that time, the Minister of Finance has held the entire share capital issued by the Bank. Ultimately, the Bank is owned by the people of Canada."

Source: http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/about/are.html

10 seconds of research. Moving on.

Not at all. Very little is borrowed by anyone from the BoC. It's called the lender of last resort. It's in place to bail out banks in the case of a run. Most of the cash raised by the Federal and Provincial governments is in the form of bonds. This is truth.

The BoC issues treasury bills which insures liquidity of the short term money supply. Don't confuse these with government bonds. The complex arrangements there are far beyond the scope of this discussion.

The government has plenty of cash of it's own. When I sign wires for income tax payments at work, they don't go to the Bank of Canada.

Where are you getting this crap from?

Ya, thanks for proving my case that it's government owned and established not to lend money to the government.

--

Here is the BoC annual report 2006 for you: http://www.bank-banque-canada.ca/en/annual...report_2006.pdf

Read the Canada Bank Act section 17 paragraph two re:Shares.

Question: What is a "Crown Corporation"?

[bush_cheney2004]

Question: What is a "Crown Corporation"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporation