July figures for Palestinian Casualites by IDF

[buffycat]

Ummm, Israel controls ALL the borders in the Occupied Territories - both the West Bank and Gaza.

All the borders? How about the one between Gaza and Egypt? Back to the Rafah crossing, why are there 6000 Palestinians "stranded" there? They're stranded there because they want to get out of Hamastan, where they are no longer welcome, due to Palestinian infighting.

Cite reference for this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-G...flict#Ceasefire

Feel free to follow further links to the references within that section if you don't like wikipedia as a citation.

Nothing happens at the Rafah crossing without Israel's say - while yes it is watched over by the Egyptians and and EU contingency - it is still Israel who dictates.

Wiki is NOT a source for anything.

Many of the those who were stranded were in Egypt for medical treatment - since Israel has laid siege to Gaza since her 'withdrawl' two years ago. Get your facts straight - you could start by NOT using wiki as a source - try the link I provided for B'TSelem. Do you even know who they are?[/i]

Even if some radical factions not associated with Hamas did continue (note NO deaths of Israelis involved) how does that relate to Hamas?

Hamas is the dominant authority in the region.

NOT at the time. But they held their ground - and did not fire. Makes no difference to the butchers in charge of the IDF or Shin Bet.

As the government, if it says it offers a ceasefire, than that means not only on behalf of itself (the government), but of all military organisations over which it has jurisdiction.

If the government of Israel offered a ceasefire, but the IDF (a military group associated with Israel) kept attacking anyway, would you accept that as a valid ceasefire? I'd bet no. Why then is your answer different for Gaza. If it's government offers a ceasefire, but a military group within it keeps lobbing rockets, then obviously the ceasefire is not being adhered to.

Ummm the IDF is the Israeli military - it is not simply a group associated with Israel. Now - what of the Settlers - who do attack and kill Palestinians along with destroying their crops, and burning their groves - so how should the PA react to that?

Unfortunately, that's exactly the problem. The Palestinian governments simply can't control the militant groups under their jurisdictions. Whether Abbas, or Ishmael (or whatever that Hamas guy's name is), or anyone else wants to make a ceasefire or a peace with Israel, the rockets will keep landing on Israel anyway, from terrorists that these governments cannot control. And that's precisely why Israel carries out strikes and incursions against these areas - to do the work that the Palestinians themselves should be doing, keeping militants that are acting against the word of their governments in check.

So, then why can the Israeli government not keep any kind of checks on the radical Settler groups? Look up Hebron and see what is going on there. There is plenty of nastiness going on for both sides - but no one can consider them equal, and it is best to realize that the Israelis are the Occupying power - complete with the responsibilities underlined in international law which comes with being that Occupier - none of which she pays any attention to. (ie the illegal settlements).

[Higgly]

Those are the facts of recorded history. Whether you like it or not.

The facts of recorded history, B. Max, are that the Jews who created Israel were Europeans who never lived in the area and who waged a terrorist campaign against the British until they left. They then declared the nation of Israel and started a campaign to drive out the Palestinian Arabs who were living in the region and many of whom had legal title to the land they were living on in order to create the state of Israel. The facts of recorded history, B. Max, are that much of land under the Israeli settlements, including over 80% of the land under Ma'ale Adummin, is owned by Palestinians who have legal title to the land. The facts are, B. Max, that the Geneva Conventions (which Israel is almost alone in refusing to acknowledge) say that an occupying force must respect the land registry.

The facts are, B. Max, that the Jews who created Israel were terrorists and interlopers and that they have created, and continue to create, their country by illegally conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the people who have lived there for centuries.

The facts are, B. Max, that the First Zionist Conference sent 3 rabbis to Palestine to invetigate whether this might be a suitable home for the Jews and that those Rabbis sent a telegram which said "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."

The facts are, B. Max, that Zev Jabotinsky, the founder of Likud, developed a strategy called "The Iron Wall" which meant the use of overwhelming military force to take land and suppress the resident Arab popluation until they finally gave up in futility and agreed to accept the state of Israel. The facts are that successive Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion, Meier, Shamir, Netenyahu and the psycopath Sharon have followd that strategy to the letter, with the help of the United States of America.

Those are the facts of recored history, B. Max.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Bonam]

So, then why can the Israeli government not keep any kind of checks on the radical Settler groups?

It can, and when it promises to, it does, as in the pullout of all settlers from Gaza, for example. If Israel promised a ceasefire in the West Bank, and militant settler groups continued attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank, then I agree with you that Israel would be in violation of the ceasefire.

Wiki is NOT a source for anything.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but some of its articles provide links to other sources, including the section I cited. Like I said in the post you quoted, feel free to look at that reference, rather than at wikipedia itself, if you don't trust it.

Nothing happens at the Rafah crossing without Israel's say - while yes it is watched over by the Egyptians and and EU contingency - it is still Israel who dictates.

Nothing happens there without Israel's say eh? Then how do you explain all the weapons getting into Gaza?

[Higgly]

Yes, Hamas was the elected government. Hamas pledged a ceasefire. Hamas failed to produce that which was promised, as rocket attacks from the territory that they controlled continued. Thus, they were an ineffective government that could not properly assert its sovereignty. As a result, Israel had to do the work of enforcing the ceasefire (shutting down the terrorists that broke it) for them.

Yeah right. Well I seem to remember an awful lot of ceasefires when Arafat was still alive (and holed up in his compound by the IDF) that were broken by he Israelis (specifically the psycopath Sharon) who would destroy Palestinian homes with bulldozers and use helicopter gunships to kill "militants". Of course we have only Israel's word as to who were the militants who were worthy of extra-judical execution.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Higgly

[buffycat]

Yes, Hamas was the elected government. Hamas pledged a ceasefire. Hamas failed to produce that which was promised, as rocket attacks from the territory that they controlled continued. Thus, they were an ineffective government that could not properly assert its sovereignty. As a result, Israel had to do the work of enforcing the ceasefire (shutting down the terrorists that broke it) for them.

Yeah right. Well I seem to remember an awful lot of ceasefires when Arafat was still alive (and holed up in his compound by the IDF) that were broken by he Israelis (specifically the psycopath Sharon) who would destroy Palestinian homes with bulldozers and use helicopter gunships to kill "militants". Of course we have only Israel's word as to who were the militants who were worthy of extra-judical execution.

Don't forget the use of human shields as a matter of policy with the IDF.

[buffycat]

Although this report is a couple years old, it might enlighten some on this board who deny any wrongdoings on Israel's part:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/images/inf...rief.php?ID=132

excerpt:

Child Prisoners

According to the Palestinian Prisoners Club, 3,000 Palestinian children have been arrested since 2000. Today, there are 300 Palestinian children in Israeli custody. Four percent of the incarcerated children are in administrative detention. The majority, 55 percent, were arrested for throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. According to Israeli military orders, Palestinian children 16 and older are treated as adults and are tried and sentenced by Israeli military courts as adults. Israeli military orders are applied to Palestinian children, even as juvenile legislation defines Israeli children as 18 or younger.

Furthermore, Palestinian children receive the same treatment as adult prisoners. They are subject to torture, solitary confinement, and/or overcrowded cells. They are deprived of sleep, adequate education, medical treatment, family visits, and recreational programs.

Defense for Children International and Save the Children have stated that Palestinian children are being "physically and mentally abused." They confirm Palestinian accusations that children are denied access to their families and legal representation during interrogation and are held in overcrowded and unsanitary conditions.

******

edited to add a link to some good videos wrt Settler violence in Hebron:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Video/200705_Hebron_Index.asp

Edited August 2, 2007 by buffycat

[B. Max]

Those are the facts of recored history, B. Max.

The fact is most of that is bull.

These are the facts.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

[Higgly]

And finally, B. Max, the west has watched and stood silent while a population of simple shepherds, farmers and small business owners has been reduced to a pre-Magna Carta class of serfs with no property rights, no citizenship rights, no right to movement or assembly, in short, B. Max, no bloody human rights at all, while people like you spout meaningless rhetoric to cover it all up and make it somehow look like the proper thing to do.

[B. Max]

And finally, B. Max, the west has watched and stood silent while a population of simple shepherds, farmers and small business owners has been reduced to a pre-Magna Carta class of serfs with no property rights, no citizenship rights, no right to movement or assembly, in short, B. Max, no bloody human rights at all, while people like you spout meaningless rhetoric to cover it all up and make it somehow look like the proper thing to do.

Not meaningless, it's fact. You are on the side of Arab land thieves.

[buffycat]

Got a link for that B.Max?

[White Doors]

Yah, cause targeting children is never done in warfare, (facetious sarcasm)

It is a tactic of demoralization.

So you think that Israel deliberately kills palestinian children?

Are you serious? You hate Jews that much that you believe that?

wow.

[White Doors]

Can we rename this thread the anti-semite thread please Charles?

[kuzadd]

Can we rename this thread the anti-semite thread please Charles?

can we rename your post, inane and pointless?

I see when facts come your way, you reduce yourself to a namecaller.

Edited August 2, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Yah, cause targeting children is never done in warfare, (facetious sarcasm)

It is a tactic of demoralization.

So you think that Israel deliberately kills palestinian children?

Are you serious? You hate Jews that much that you believe that?

wow.

the weak, smear.

Edited August 2, 2007 by kuzadd

[B. Max]

Got a link for that B.Max?

Of course. http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php

Here is another for good information.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

[buffycat]

Rather one sided site, both of them.

Thanks but I'll stick with B'TSelem, Gush Shalom, ICAHD and other Israeli sites who REALLY do promote peace and understanding instead of the obviously biased and agenda driven goobledegook on those two sites!

You may want to read some stuff by Ilan Pappe, or perhaps even Benny Morris - who don't continue to perpetuate the lies wrt the Nakba and the ethnic cleansing of BM Palestine and the pfledgling Israeli state.

Thanks though for providing the source of your '20' propoganda points!

[Bonam]

Lol it's great how you condemn any source with the opposing point of view as "biased". Perhaps you'd like to point out which of the listed facts is wrong or misleading?

[B. Max]

Rather one sided site, both of them.

The facts always are.

[Rue]

Got a link for that B.Max?

How about going to Higgly's link for making the absurd comment that Israel was created by Europeans.

[Rue]

In response to Buffy advising the forum to "read stuff" and go read Benny Morris may I suggest she go to;

http://www.meforum.org/article/466

The fact that you quote him Buffy at all says volumes about your absolute and utter lack of awareness as to what it is you are professing.

Mr. Morris has no credibility with anyone Buffy. There is a reason for it. Perhaps you should find out.

And by the way Buffy if you did bother to read, you would realize he is personna non grata with the anti-semites and anti-Zionist world as well now. Perhaps you should find out why.

[Rue]

Higgly stated the following subjective opinions which are not based on historic fact as if they were and I quote;

1-The facts of recorded history, B. Max, are that the Jews who created Israel were Europeans who never lived in the area.and who waged a terrorist campaign against the British until they left.

2-They then declared the nation of Israel and started a campaign to drive out the Palestinian Arabs who were living in the region and many of whom had legal title to the land they were living on in order to create the state of Israel.

3-The facts are, B. Max, that the Jews who created Israel were terrorists and interlopers and that they have created, and continue to create, their country by illegally conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the people who have lived there for centuries.

4-The facts are, B. Max, that the First Zionist Conference sent 3 rabbis to Palestine to invetigate whether this might be a suitable home for the Jews and that those Rabbis sent a telegram which said "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man."

5-The facts are, B. Max, that Zev Jabotinsky, the founder of Likud, developed a strategy called "The Iron Wall" which meant the use of overwhelming military force to take land and suppress the resident Arab popluation until they finally gave up in futility and agreed to accept the state of Israel. The facts are that successive Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion, Meier, Shamir, Netenyahu and the psycopath Sharon have followd that strategy to the letter, with the help of the United States of America.

6-Those are the facts of recored history, B. Max.

All the above comments posted by Higgly are not referenced. They also are his personal subjective political opinions presented as histroic facts.

This is precisely why I now tell people on the forum I find Higgly to be intellectually dishonest.

He presents his subjective opinions as if they are historic fact.

I simply will state this-anyone can go on the inter-net and easily find out the actual historic facts and find out for themelves why what Higgly has presented is in fact subjective fabrication and personal opinion being presented as something it is not.

For me its not worthy of a response unless someone other then Higgly asks me to.

[buffycat]

Hello Rue,

wrt Morris, I understand his shortcomings - but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

At the very least he admits the ethnic cleansing did occur - as many other Israeli historians have now also done.

Since, however, I do not belong to the 'anti-semite' camp (and I really wish folk would stop throwing that stupid term around) I really couldn't care less what those people might think or not (they are rather undefinable anyway - since to some fanatics anyone even saying a single thing wrt Israel's behaviour is labelled as one - either that or self-hater - IMO useless debate tactic meant to stop all discussion).

Speaking of which - this thread which I started was to illustrate that there is much which both the IDF and the Israeli Admin should be answering for wrt treatment of Palestinian civilians, both in the West Bank and of course Gaza, which is litterally under siege. I would appreciate if you stay on topic and not attack other posters in my thread. If you want to have a "higgly" thread - go ahead and start one. If you would like to discuss the human rights violations in the Occupied Territories perpetrated by the IDF and Fanatical Settlers fine - stay and discuss. Afterall - that is the thread topic - not your love affair with Higgly.

Thank you.

[Rue]

I am going to keep my further response to Buffy short.

Buffy what you have done is to deliberately post articles presenting one side of a conflict. You have done so because you have a preconception that there is a bad guy and a good guy in the Middle East and you have it all figured out so will come on this forum and lecture people about the bad guy and go so far as to lecture people on who they should read.

I have news for you Buffy, there is another side of the story and until you make an intellectual effort to discuss it and instead simply come on to this forum and present one side of a conflict I can not take you seriously.

I definitely can not take you seriously when you lecture people to refer to an academic who is even discredited by anti-zionists but you obviously have not taken the time to find out why.

Buffy there were 700 Hamas rocket attacks as of July 12,2006 since Hamas began launching them. Since that time each day they launch an estimated 5-50 rockets.

On April 24, 2007, on Israel's Independence Day, Hamas bragged about launching 80 missiles.

Buffy you have zero credibility and I will tell you why. You sit without any missiles being shot at you. Yes its easy for you to criticize Israel from the security and peace you take for granted.

But there is no doubt in my mind if someone was shooting missiles at you, you would want your government to do something about it.

As for your comment that the IDF uses children as shields, those of us who bother to read, understand that there was a context to why that was being done, a context you do not understand and I would be glad to explain but at this time Buffy you have made it clear you are not interested in anything but information that backs up your opinion so I will not waste my effort.

I will tell you this Buffy, if you have any semblance of intelligence perhaps you may want to ask Higgly when he was in fact in Gaza and whether the story he presented was fabricated.

I can tell you Buffy having almost died in Gaza, the story Higgly posted in my opinion just does not add up. For starters Buffy, I know people who live in the Gaza and they do not cower from the IDF. For someone to write that shows they do not understand how in fact Palestinians react to the IDF. It was a tell-tale mistake to me and indicates to me someone who wrote something trying to get sympathy and present a Palestinian as a victim in need of Higgly's help.

Its absurd Buffy when we get to the point where someone like Higgly has to try portray himself as a hero of Palestinians. Is that the level you want to lower yourself to?

[buffycat]

Lol it's great how you condemn any source with the opposing point of view as "biased". Perhaps you'd like to point out which of the listed facts is wrong or misleading?

Well, to be frank IMO allmost all of the 'points' are rather misleading and certainly myopic.

For instance the standard LIE that Arab leaders told the people to leave - that has been completely discredited, even Vad Yashen now acknowledges the Nakba.

No comment though on B'TSelem? Gush Shalom? ICAHD? Ilan Pappe? The fine humans who are associated with these organisations, and of course Pappe himself are the true brave ones, they see both sides, they see the truths and do not shrink from them, instead they try, hard as it is to make peace and inroads so that this mess can finally end - whether it's a two state solution as advocated by Averney (Gush Shalom) or a one state as advocated by Pappe.

You might find this debate rather interesting:

Two States or One State

Here is Ilan's site - in case you would like to check him out, unlike the 'middleeastfacts' site there is NO demonisation on Pappe's site:

http://www.ilanpappe.org/articles.html

[buffycat]

Rue,

You are free to start your own thread wrt Hamas (or other factions) lobbing of rockets into Southern Israel (which BTW I certainly do not condone, no matter how you might want to spin it.

As stated the purpose of this thread was to present a side of the conflict that is NOT mentioned in our media here in NA, if it is it is often without context.

There ya go - a REALLY short response unlike your verbal ramblings above. I really don't care whether you take me seriously or not - couldn't really give a hoot. Sorry if that hurts your feelings - but really I care not.

Now, I provided Israeli sources for the other side of this conflict, which as I have stated does not get the airplay it should in order to understand what some of the problems are.

If you would like to discuss the wrongs of the IDF and Israeli Admins fine, continue to post on my thread - if you are simply here to hurl insults and character assassinations then kindly butt out.

edited to add:

Settlers Attack UN Personell in South Hebron Hills

and this:

IDF censures ex battalion chief over shooting of innocent Palestinian

*sigh*

Edited August 3, 2007 by buffycat