Muslims in Britain

[ScottSA]

Exceptionally good article/analysis of Muslims in Britain.

...The fundamental problem is this: There is an asymmetry between the good that many moderate Muslims can do for Britain and the harm that a few fanatics can do to it. The 1-in-1,000 chance that a man is a murderous fanatic is more important to me than the 999-in-1,000 chance that he is not a murderous fanatic: If, that is, he is not especially valuable or indispensable to me in some way.

And the plain fact of the matter is that British society could get by perfectly well without the contribution even of moderate Muslims. The only thing we really want from Muslims is their oil money for bank deposits, to prop up London property prices and to sustain the luxury market; their cheap labor that we imported in the 1960s in a vain effort to bolster the dying textile industry, which could not find local labor, is now redundant.

In other words, one of the achievements of the bombers and would-be bombers is to make discrimination against most Muslims who wish to enter Britain a perfectly rational policy...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...omment-opinions

[Sulaco]

My issue with this is that the article takes up the paradigm of those who argue for highly liberal imigration policies. It reduces humans into economic units and plays a utilitarian game with them. That might be intended to undermine the stanadrd arguments within the paradigm but to me it seems overly reductionist.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Sulaco

[Bonam]

I'm a bit surprised that something like that got published in a mainstream paper. Not that it doesn't have a point. But it means distrust of Muslims is rising very quickly, quicker than I thought it would actually.

[ScottSA]

I'm a bit surprised that something like that got published in a mainstream paper. Not that it doesn't have a point. But it means distrust of Muslims is rising very quickly, quicker than I thought it would actually.

It's rising on two levels, one for purely safety reasons and the other social.

[M.Dancer]

In other words, one of the achievements of the bombers and would-be bombers is to make discrimination against most Muslims who wish to enter Britain a perfectly rational policy. This is not to say that the government would espouse it, other than surreptitiously by giving secret directions to visa offices around the world. But why should a country take an unnecessary risk without a compensatory benefit?

The problem causes deep philosophical discomfort to everyone who believes in a tolerant society. On the one hand we believe that every individual should be judged on his merits, while, on the other, we know it would be absurd and dangerous to pretend that the threat of terrorism comes from sections of the population equally.

History is full of the most terrible examples of what happens when governments and peoples ascribe undesirable traits to minorities, and no decent person would wish to participate in the crimes to which this ascription can give rise; yet it would also be folly to ignore sociological reality.

All that is needed, then, to deal with the present situation is the wisdom of Solomon.

I agree with the article. It will require quite a bit from us to fight the terrorists and not adopt their mentality.

[Mad_Michael]

It will require quite a bit from us to fight the terrorists and not adopt their mentality.

Way too late for that I'm afraid. It is a done deal. The west has become their own worst enemy and adopting te mentality of the fanatics.

Question is, who are more fanatical or more numerous? The Muslims or those who love to hate them?

Edited July 12, 2007 by Mad_Michael

[JerrySeinfeld]

It will require quite a bit from us to fight the terrorists and not adopt their mentality.

Way too late for that I'm afraid. It is a done deal. The west has become their own worst enemy and adopting te mentality of the fanatics.

Question is, who are more fanatical or more numerous? The Muslims or those who love to hate them?

This kind of multi-culti brainwashed muzzak type of comment is tired and used up. The only reason we're still hearing this kind of hogwash is because Canada hasn't yet been inundated with the serious numbers of muslims and problems that europe has.

[Moxie]

Well Mad the worst most us "Haters" do is express visa vie our words our distrust of Radical Islamists, note the word Radical Mad. We don't strap bombs on our children, or hide under burkas while fleeing innocents we just shot. We try and have dialog regarding the issue of Islamists and their violent savage ways. You can attempt to silence those who choose to speak out about Radical Islam Mad with words like Racists or hater but the FACTS can't be disputed an overwelling number of "So called Moderates" want Sharia Law enacted and they want to live under Tribal Laws that aren't compatable with a civilized society. England is going to hell in a hand basket, it panders to Muslims daily just to keep them happy well dah it's not working. When highly educated people start making bombs in the name of Allah it's obvious they don't hate us for our Policies or our Western lifestyle they are on a quest for Global domination. Snicker if you will but the Radicals are openly admiting a world wide caliphate is taking place. Mosques in England are controled by Radical Wahhabi wanna bees, this man made version of Islam is violent, dangerous, filthy and vile. It's a cult and should be treated in the West as such. It should be illegal, it is not a religion it's a cult and a man made one. It is not Islam, Moderate Muslims fear this version of Islam as much as we infidels.

We need to wake up and stop allowing the left and the left/left to make us cower in fear lest we offend, I don't care if I'm a racist fear mongering hater. If my words help erradicate just one percent of the filth called Radical Islam well I'm a happy gal. Violent animals should be put to sleep, to ensure the protection of the majority. Radical Islamists are animals to me not humans, rabid animals who kill without conscience. They do not feel or mete out mercy why should we?

[ScottSA]

I don't care if I'm a racist fear mongering hater.

We need everyone to stand up and say that. The left has created a climate of McCarthyite fear so enervating that no-one will say anything lest they be called a racist. The only difference between being called a 'racist' and being called an 'anti-American' is 5 decades.

[Hollus]

Except now if you don't 'stand up and say that' you will be called anti-American.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Hollus

[ScottSA]

I don't care if I'm a racist fear mongering hater.

We need everyone to stand up and say that. The left has created a climate of McCarthyite fear so enervating that no-one will say anything lest they be called a racist. The only difference between being called a 'racist' and being called an 'anti-American' is 5 decades.

Except now if you don't 'stand up and say that' you will be called anti-American.

When you say really really stupid things like this, do you expect a response? Just wondering.

[Hollus]

Well Scott, watching the mainstream news (especially Fox) the past few years, I've witnessed countless occasions where people expressing opposition to the handling of the terrorist threat have been labelled anti-American. In fact the Bush admin straight out said your anit-American if you don't support what they do. And I think it's quite reasonable to say that the handling of the terrorist threat has only exacerbated the problem. I cannot recall any instance in the mainstream media where someone has been labelled a racist for condemning radical Islam. Maybe its happened, but certainly not to the extent that people have unjustly been labelled anti-American

So I think my post is valid.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Hollus

[Charles Anthony]

There is useless extraneous quoting going on in this thread.

Check out these threads:

Using the [ Quote ] Feature: Avoid using more too many quotes!

Trim Your Posts and Quotes -- Don't just hit "Reply"

which go through details on how to tidy up the formatting.

Some of you should go back and edit your posts.

Sulaco,

repeating the entire Opening Post is objectively wrong. You are the very first reply. There can not possibly be any doubt that you are replying to the Opening Post. Delete your quotation.

Hollus and ScottSA,

you two are creating a scroller-coaster eye-sore out of this thread. Go back and get ride of your repetitive quoting.

----

Some of you might find this previous thread Clerics at Mosques in England, Showing surprising tolerance to the west interesting.

[ScottSA]

Well Scott, watching the mainstream news (especially Fox) the past few years, I've witnessed countless occasions where people expressing opposition to the handling of the terrorist threat have been labelled anti-American. In fact the Bush admin straight out said your anit-American if you don't support what they do. And I think it's quite reasonable to say that the handling of the terrorist threat has only exacerbated the problem. I cannot recall any instance in the mainstream media where someone has been labelled a racist for condemning radical Islam. Maybe its happened, but certainly not to the extent that people have unjustly been labelled anti-American

So I think my post is valid.

There are a great number of people on the left who don't want anything done about the terrorist threat, because the sooner the US is brought down, the happier they'll be. We see it here on this very forum. Check out Drea on the thread about the "death throws" [sic] of the American "empire". Naked gloating. Many of them even deny that it exists, like the 911 truthers and a whole slab of leftists of various stripes. All of them say "that the handling of the terrorist threat has only exacerbated the problem" for one reason or another, so people can be forgiven for thinking when someone stands up and claims they don't like the way the problem is being handled, and yet has no solution themselves, that they are indeed being anti-American.

[Drea]

Alas! You and your black and white thinking. Sheesh.

One can liken the USA to the bully in the school yard. The bully needs to be taken down (not killed doughhead, just taken down a notch or two).

Just because I revel in the bully's demise does not mean I am a "terrorist sympathizer". Get a grip.

You have fallen hook, line and sinker for the propaganda coming out of the mouths of the Bush administration. They have you quaking in your boots in anticipation of a "terror attack".

There has never been a terrorist attack in North America that wasn't perpetrated by Americans themselves (or their govt).

The Bush admin is currently warning everyone that they are about to do it again before the next US election.

You are absolutely dilusional if you believe cave dwelling muslims have the capacity to attack the big ol US of A.

Your tinfoil hat must be on waaay too tight. Hug your teddy bear and you will be safe. Oh, and don't forget to pick up some duct tape....

Ha ha ha

Edited July 13, 2007 by Drea

[ScottSA]

Alas! You and your black and white thinking. Sheesh.

One can liken the USA to the bully in the school yard. The bully needs to be taken down (not killed doughhead, just taken down a notch or two).

Just because I revel in the bully's demise does not mean I am a "terrorist sympathizer". Get a grip.

You have fallen hook, line and sinker for the propaganda coming out of the mouths of the Bush administration. They have you quaking in your boots in anticipation of a "terror attack".

There has never been a terrorist attack in North America that wasn't perpetrated by Americans themselves (or their govt).

The Bush admin is currently warning everyone that they are about to do it again before the next US election.

You are absolutely dilusional if you believe cave dwelling muslims have the capacity to attack the big ol US of A.

Your tinfoil hat must be on waaay too tight. Hug your teddy bear and you will be safe. Oh, and don't forget to pick up some duct tape....

Ha ha ha

Talk about black and white thinking.

[Mad_Michael]

Well Mad the worst most us "Haters" do is express visa vie our words our distrust of Radical Islamists, note the word Radical Mad. We don't strap bombs on our children, or hide under burkas while fleeing innocents we just shot. We try and have dialog regarding the issue of Islamists and their violent savage ways. You can attempt to silence those who choose to speak out about Radical Islam Mad with words like Racists or hater but the FACTS can't be disputed an overwelling number of "So called Moderates" want Sharia Law enacted and they want to live under Tribal Laws that aren't compatable with a civilized society. England is going to hell in a hand basket, it panders to Muslims daily just to keep them happy well dah it's not working. When highly educated people start making bombs in the name of Allah it's obvious they don't hate us for our Policies or our Western lifestyle they are on a quest for Global domination. Snicker if you will but the Radicals are openly admiting a world wide caliphate is taking place. Mosques in England are controled by Radical Wahhabi wanna bees, this man made version of Islam is violent, dangerous, filthy and vile. It's a cult and should be treated in the West as such. It should be illegal, it is not a religion it's a cult and a man made one. It is not Islam, Moderate Muslims fear this version of Islam as much as we infidels.

We need to wake up and stop allowing the left and the left/left to make us cower in fear lest we offend, I don't care if I'm a racist fear mongering hater. If my words help erradicate just one percent of the filth called Radical Islam well I'm a happy gal. Violent animals should be put to sleep, to ensure the protection of the majority. Radical Islamists are animals to me not humans, rabid animals who kill without conscience. They do not feel or mete out mercy why should we?

I'm way more worried about, or scared of, people like you than any Muslim.

[Mad_Michael]

It will require quite a bit from us to fight the terrorists and not adopt their mentality.

Way too late for that I'm afraid. It is a done deal. The west has become their own worst enemy and adopting te mentality of the fanatics.

Question is, who are more fanatical or more numerous? The Muslims or those who love to hate them?

This kind of multi-culti brainwashed muzzak type of comment is tired and used up. The only reason we're still hearing this kind of hogwash is because Canada hasn't yet been inundated with the serious numbers of muslims and problems that europe has.

Bemused giggles.

The reason Canada doesn't have the same Muslim problem as is common in Europe is because our government doesn't treat Muslim immigrants like second-class citizens as they do in Europe (though our xenophobic Muslim-haters here in North America are working hard to re-create the European Muslim problem here).

But don't let any real facts get in the way of your rant - it is much more fun and entertaining as it is.

Btw, what is a "muzzak type comment"???

Edited July 13, 2007 by Mad_Michael

[ScottSA]

Bemused giggles.

The reason Canada doesn't have the same Muslim problem as is common in Europe is because our government doesn't treat Muslim immigrants like second-class citizens as they do in Europe (though our xenophobic Muslim-haters here in North America are working hard to re-create the European Muslim problem here).

What supercillious twaddle. Britain bends over backwards to accomodate Muslims. Obviously you make no distinctions between the countries of Europe, which has, I suspect, a lot to do with the fact that you don't know there are any.

[M.Dancer]

Britain isn't a good example of Europe what with common law and habeas corpus and such. Instead look at France and Germany for examples of thenormal immigrant welcome mat.

[Argus]

It will require quite a bit from us to fight the terrorists and not adopt their mentality.

Way too late for that I'm afraid. It is a done deal. The west has become their own worst enemy and adopting te mentality of the fanatics.

Question is, who are more fanatical or more numerous? The Muslims or those who love to hate them?

Fanatic? You don't know what the word is. Fanatic is when the Taliban raid an elementary school, pull the girls out and behead them to punish they and their parents for daring to educate girls. Fanatic is when Al Quaeda insinuates itself into a group building a girls school in Iraq, putting large gas tanks and explosives into the walls and floors so that they can blow the place up when it's filled with little girls.

You are comparing us to that?

[kimmy]

There has never been a terrorist attack in North America that wasn't perpetrated by Americans themselves (or their govt).

The Bush admin is currently warning everyone that they are about to do it again before the next US election.

You are absolutely dilusional if you believe cave dwelling muslims have the capacity to attack the big ol US of A.

Your tinfoil hat must be on waaay too tight. Hug your teddy bear and you will be safe. Oh, and don't forget to pick up some duct tape....

Ha ha ha

uh, whose tinfoil hat needs adjustment?

Muslims don't all live in caves, Rita. Some of them have houses, even jobs. The ones in the UK this month were doctors, in fact.

Britain isn't a good example of Europe what with common law and habeas corpus and such. Instead look at France and Germany for examples of thenormal immigrant welcome mat.

And yet it was Britain that had the attempted terror attacks this month.

-k

[ScottSA]

Britain isn't a good example of Europe what with common law and habeas corpus and such. Instead look at France and Germany for examples of thenormal immigrant welcome mat.

I thought the unhappiness was Iraq's fault, since that is so often trotted out as a reason for terrorism. Now we learn from MM that the real reason is that immigrants are not made to feel welcome enough, and so must either seethe loudly or explode in anger, sometimes literally. And KO2 assures us that it's the fact of religion itself is to blame for all violence everywhere and always. I'm having a hard time keeping track of these leftist "root causes."

[Drea]

uh, whose tinfoil hat needs adjustment?

Muslims don't all live in caves, Rita. Some of them have houses, even jobs. The ones in the UK this month were doctors, in fact.

Ever stop to think WHY an educated person would even want to be involved in terrorism? Frig, there must be a reason an educated person would do this. Please tell what you believe their motivation is.

Where are those doctors and intellects that were involved in 911 then? They were not there because muslims did not "knock down" the buildings.

The American govt did it. Fully, completely, entirely. There were no highjackers, only explosives planted by the US govt.

There WILL be another attack on the USA before the election. It WILL be perpetrated by none other than your beloved Republican leaders so that they can continue their false "war on terror".

Don't believe it? Talk to me in November '08. The Republicans CANNOT win another election UNLESS their country is "attacked" and they are "at war".

Go to the Democratic Underground -- there you will find out how the majority of Americans feel. How they believe Bush and his cronies murdered 3,000 people, how they have led the American populace down the "garden path" regrading all this fake terrorism.

I just spent the last four hours chatting with my friend in Iran. She is asking if the US is going to attack Iran. I said "probably" because there is a big "hate-on" for muslims right now. Poor kid I hope she is ok. Not that you would care -- she's muslim so therefore considered a terrorist in your narrow mind.

[kimmy]

Ever stop to think WHY an educated person would even want to be involved in terrorism? Frig, there must be a reason an educated person would do this. Please tell what you believe their motivation is.

Anger?

Desire to strike back at the Western Imperialists for injustices they believe had been done to their people or their religion?

The promise of heavenly rewards if they die in the service of their religion?

Brainwashing-like effects of cult-like devotion to religious-like leaders?

Some combination of the above?

Doesn't that seem likely?

Where are those doctors and intellects that were involved in 911 then? They were not there because muslims did not "knock down" the buildings.

The fact that there were no medical doctors among the hijackers proves that 9/11 was a frame-up?

I'm at a loss.

You've outdone yourself this time, Drea. I can only assume that your enthusiasm for your "special" tobacco has finally caused you some sort of permanent impairment.

The American govt did it. Fully, completely, entirely. There were no highjackers, only explosives planted by the US govt.

Good grief, we have a 2175 post thread devoted to that nonsense. Why don't you go there and make it 2176?

There WILL be another attack on the USA before the election. It WILL be perpetrated by none other than your beloved Republican leaders so that they can continue their false "war on terror".

Don't believe it? Talk to me in November '08. The Republicans CANNOT win another election UNLESS their country is "attacked" and they are "at war".

I'm sure that the Republicans will do their best to exploit public fears about safety to improve their election chances.

It's a big leap from trying to spin current events to your advantage to actually going out and committing murder and mayhem against your own people.

Go to the Democratic Underground -- there you will find out how the majority of Americans feel. How they believe Bush and his cronies murdered 3,000 people, how they have led the American populace down the "garden path" regrading all this fake terrorism.

Democratic Underground? If I want to make myself ill, I'll just visit "PrisonPlanet". At least his garbage journalism is entertaining.

I just spent the last four hours chatting with my friend in Iran. She is asking if the US is going to attack Iran. I said "probably" because there is a big "hate-on" for muslims right now. Poor kid I hope she is ok. Not that you would care -- she's muslim so therefore considered a terrorist in your narrow mind.

I don't believe that all Muslims are terrorists. I don't think that very many at all are, in fact.

I have a Muslim friend on the internet too, and I don't believe she'd ever blow up herself or anybody else. I had many Muslim co-workers when I was in my tech-support job, and they all seemed like nice people too.

But I haven't let any of that blind me to the fact that there are some within the faith who really are angry enough to kill and die over it.

-k