How can you believe in religion?

[ScottSA]

My question is, what rational reason do you have to believe in religion? Why do you believe?

Your question is flawed. One doesn't need a rational reason for anything, much less religious faith.

Human beings have a long history of irrational passions. This is human nature.

And since you asked, the vast majority of religious people inherited their religion from their parents/family upbringing. They are religious for the same reason they have manners and speak the language they do.

That explanation - religion or faith is inherited- is more than a bit facile.

I've noticed many people return to their faith or discover faith later in life. They are not inbred hillbillies either, but thinking caring and intelligent people.

There are a couple of explanations for this. The most likely is that as people get older, they tend to move beyond the questions of where the next party might be found.

Right.

And quite remarkably, those older people tend to move to precisely the religion that they were brought up in - or atleast, in over 90% of cases where this phenomena is known to occur.

If your theory was even remotely credible, then these 'older people' might be expected to adopt a variety of different religous views. They generally don't.

You are correct in one respect though. People as they age often do 'come back' to the religion that they 'drifted' away from in their younger days.

Mambership is simple, all that is intially required is to accept the first premise of the religion as fact. With Christianity, there are a couple of them, starting with 'Jesus died for your sins' or 'God created Heaven and the Earth". Once you accept one of those, all the rest fits pretty well.

Picking or choosing amongst a hundred various sects amongst the Christian religion is of course equally simple.

Indeed, in well over 90% of cases, they will magically choose the one that they were brought up with. Remarkable coincidence that.

If you are going to assert that religion isn't inherited from your parents (as is the statistical case of over 90% of Americans who claim to be religious), then you have to offer a more convincing argument.

P.S. Your assertion that my argument here is "facile" is troll bait. I replied politely. I don't always reply to troll bait with such politeness.

Nor are you own troll baits very polite, although the beatings you've suffered ought to eventually tone you down.

Is it possible that people return later in life to the religion of their upbringing because that is the type of spirituality they are familiar with rather than because of some learned response during youth? Isn't it possible that the object is not a return to a specific religion as much as a quest for spirituality? Is it more reasonable for an elderly European or North American grandma who was raised a Presbyterian to seek out spirituality in an ashram or in a church?

The immediate problem you are having is in the facile assumption that religion is the equivalent of spiritualism...one is a method and the other an object. But your larger problem is that facile undergrad philosophy majors learn in a sort of linear modelling that precludes thinking outside the box. Couple that with the arrogance of atheism and all that ever emerges is strawmen. People returning to the religion of their youth is quite natural, and in no way discredits their quest for faith and spirituality.

It is quite likely that some who do beome religious do return to the religion of their family. I guess it is familiar. But - they rejected it once, so they are equally likely to accept whatever seems right at the time their spiritual quest occurs, which is much more likely to be independent at age 28 than at age 8.

It may be natural to return to the religion of childhood, but it is far from preordained.

Indeed, whacko outfits like Scientology and many others count on it.

And I am not talking at all about deathbed conversions, I'm referring to young adults that seek answers in organized religions - and find them. It does not matter so much that the answers may be rote dogma, it matters that they exist and are consistent. People seek simplicity and stability and fellowship and a sense of belonging. Organized religion provides much of that, it is not hard to see why people seek it.

I'm merely pointing out to Mikey that there's more than one reason people tend to return to the faith of their youth rather than to other religions...as a rule. I agree that many people church-shop, but many don't, finding the spirituality they are seeking in more familiar settings. Neither group is evidence of the facile hypothesis that spirituality is a mere customary inheritance...all it's evidence of is that people tend to like tradition.

[Mad_Michael]

It is quite likely that some who do beome religious do return to the religion of their family. I guess it is familiar. But - they rejected it once, so they are equally likely to accept whatever seems right at the time their spiritual quest occurs, which is much more likely to be independent at age 28 than at age 8.

It may be natural to return to the religion of childhood, but it is far from preordained.

Indeed, whacko outfits like Scientology and many others count on it.

And I am not talking at all about deathbed conversions, I'm referring to young adults that seek answers in organized religions - and find them. It does not matter so much that the answers may be rote dogma, it matters that they exist and are consistent. People seek simplicity and stability and fellowship and a sense of belonging. Organized religion provides much of that, it is not hard to see why people seek it.

I don't dispute any of that.

But the simple fact that well over 90% of all people who claim to 'have a religion' have the same one as their parents. This level of co-relation with parents is far higher than voting habits or income status. This suggests that religion is somehow 'inherited'.

If you have actively religious parents, there is a very high likelihood that you will be religious too. If you have non-religious parents, there is a very high likelihood that you will not be religious.

Those that reject their parents religion (or inherit no religion) and yet come to accept some other religion are comparatively very rare (statistically less than 2%).

Indeed, religious status is statistically the easiest (and most probable) thing to predict about any given person - without knowing any detail about that person save the identity, religion, ethnicity and social status of the parents.

On this basis, I don't see how one can just outright reject the idea that religion is inherited. The idea that the overwhelming majority of religious people follow their parent's religion is not a coincidence.

[ScottSA]

On this basis, I don't see how one can just outright reject the idea that religion is inherited. The idea that the overwhelming majority of religious people follow their parent's religion is not a coincidence.

It can't be rejected outright, but there are far simpler, more sensible, and more likely explanations.

[gc1765]

It can't be rejected outright, but there are far simpler, more sensible, and more likely explanations.

Such as?

[ScottSA]

It can't be rejected outright, but there are far simpler, more sensible, and more likely explanations.

Such as?

You are either posting in the wrong thread or haven't bothered to read it.

[Mad_Michael]

It can't be rejected outright, but there are far simpler, more sensible, and more likely explanations.

Such as?

Indeed. Damn good question.

[ScottSA]

It can't be rejected outright, but there are far simpler, more sensible, and more likely explanations.

Such as?

Indeed. Damn good question.

I take it you haven't been reading the thread you've been arguing in either, eh wot?

[Mad_Michael]

I take it you haven't been reading the thread you've been arguing in either, eh wot?

You seem to 'take' things incorrectly quite often. No need to stop doing so now.

[AndrewL]

Hey,

I do not mean this to be insulting at all.

I am agnostic, people who think they have the answer or truth scare me.

I have hindu, muslim, jewish, and christian (among others) friends; I am respectful around them but I cant understand why they would believe. It seems like superstition to me.

My question is, what rational reason do you have to believe in religion? Why do you believe?

I will not ask for proof, as this is stupid.....

But I have never seen any reason why I should believe in anything (which is why im agnostic).

To be frank, it does not make any sense to me why people would not be agnostic.

One has to differentiate between non-rational and irrational. In religious terms:

Non-rational is our belief that life has meaning and human beings are spiritual creatures. In other words, even the non-religious people can seek meaning and spirituality while understanding that these are not absolutes bestowed upon us by a caring and personal god. We can seek meaning and spirituality in our lives because it is "good", not because it has a rational basis.

Irrational beliefs are a belief in magic, prayer, creation science, divine rewards and punishments, the after life, stigmata, suicide bombing, going to war in the name of god, crying statues of the virgin mary, images of jesus in pieces of toast, virgin birth, sons of god, resurrection, and so on.

I think you will find that most people seek religion for the non-rational aspect, leaving the silly irrational aspect of religion on the table.

If you look at it that way, you can perhaps understand why your friends whom you respect seem to believe in religion. I suspect they might just enjoy the comfort of meaning and spirituality. I certainly do (but in a humanistic way).

I wish to redefine the source of the spiritual and meaningful life to be grounded in human terms, recognizing that we are animals uncreated and uncared for by the hand of the abrahamic god. I do this in an attempt to undermine the political and financial power of the fanatics who sit at the top of the churches, synagogues, and mosques.

Andrew

[ScottSA]

Hey,

I do not mean this to be insulting at all.

I am agnostic, people who think they have the answer or truth scare me.

I have hindu, muslim, jewish, and christian (among others) friends; I am respectful around them but I cant understand why they would believe. It seems like superstition to me.

My question is, what rational reason do you have to believe in religion? Why do you believe?

I will not ask for proof, as this is stupid.....

But I have never seen any reason why I should believe in anything (which is why im agnostic).

To be frank, it does not make any sense to me why people would not be agnostic.

One has to differentiate between non-rational and irrational. In religious terms:

Non-rational is our belief that life has meaning and human beings are spiritual creatures. In other words, even the non-religious people can seek meaning and spirituality while understanding that these are not absolutes bestowed upon us by a caring and personal god. We can seek meaning and spirituality in our lives because it is "good", not because it has a rational basis.

Irrational beliefs are a belief in magic, prayer, creation science, divine rewards and punishments, the after life, stigmata, suicide bombing, going to war in the name of god, crying statues of the virgin mary, images of jesus in pieces of toast, virgin birth, sons of god, resurrection, and so on.

Andrew

The categories are fine...funny how the components of each are completely arbitrary according to what you believe.

[Mad_Michael]

I wish to redefine the source of the spiritual and meaningful life to be grounded in human terms, recognizing that we are animals uncreated and uncared for by the hand of the abrahamic god. I do this in an attempt to undermine the political and financial power of the fanatics who sit at the top of the churches, synagogues, and mosques.

Then you are no different then those whom you oppose. They seek a similar thing (they want it grounded in God - you want grounding in human terms).

[ScottSA]

I take it you haven't been reading the thread you've been arguing in either, eh wot?

You seem to 'take' things incorrectly quite often. No need to stop doing so now.

You must be still smarting from previous threads, what with all the driveby snipings lately, eh wot?

[Xman]

Reality is what we believe it to be.

[Mad_Michael]

Reality is what we believe it to be.

You saying reality is subjective?

You mean the Americans really were greeted with flowers by the Iraqis and there is no violence going on there at all?

[Xman]

That is for you to decide, son.

[Mad_Michael]

That is for you to decide, son.

Gibberish.

Discussion quality at this forum is low at the best of times. Your contributions drag it down further.

[Xman]

Sorry.

[ScottSA]

Reality is what we believe it to be.

Do you realize how sophomoric this is? Why are you posting it in every thread? It destroys the thread, puts your stupidity on display, and acheives nothing good. You're like a two year old who just discovered the spam button.

[Xman]

"I know. You are much smarter than me." - ScottSA

[jbg]

That is for you to decide, son.

Gibberish. Discussion quality at this forum is low at the best of times. Your contributions drag it down further.

Even though we rarely agree on anything, I do admire your criticism of left-wingers as well as right-wingers.

I myself am more of a left-winger, in fact quite extreme, but keep up the good work.

[KO2]

How can you believe in Religion?

Close your mind, learn to chant, and attack all those who are not of the star bellied Sneetches type.

[betsy]

The problem for you people who worry about my belief in God is that you care what I believe. But I don't care what you believe.

I'm not worried that I "have religion." BUT you're worried because you DON'T have religion.

Of course you'll never admit it, but that's the way it is.

Edited July 14, 2007 by betsy

[KO2]

How can you believe in religion: Close your mind and learn to hate the other

[jbg]

How can you believe in religion: Close your mind and learn to hate the other

There is only one religion of hate, one death cult now.

[ScottSA]

How can you believe in Religion?

Close your mind, learn to chant, and attack all those who are not of the star bellied Sneetches type.

Speaking of closed minds...