Happy Tax Freedom Day!

[geoffrey]

Well, our favourite day of the year is here! We can finally start working for ourselves (at least the average Canadian, if your higher income, you've got a few more weeks to slave for the government).

Basically, I have three questions:

1) How does it feel to have nearly 1/2 your income go to government?

Think of a day at work, all morning you work for others, and the afternoon is for yourself. Wow.

2) Do you feel like you receive value for your contributions?

Put it this way. A $50,000/yr income earner pays about $1,800 in payroll deducted tax, EI and CPP monthly. What could you do with another $1,800 a month? I can promise you that you can get a private health care plan and pay for your toll road commute to work everyday easy. What exactly do I get for that money (for us over the average Alberta income of $50,000, it's even worse)???

3) I'm only recently a taxpayer (and not even that much with education credits)... say 2 years of consistant real taxes. For the older folks around here, do you feel like the government is taking more and more over the years... and if so, do you feel like you still receive good value for your money in terms of improved government services?

Here is the link to the Fraser Institute's Report:

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/TFD2007.pdf

Bottom line... I don't feel like I receive value for the money I put into Canada. What I do like is how the Fraser Institute puts it tangibly, how does it feel to have worked 6 months for nearly nothing? Automatic tax deductions are the reason why the government can rob us blind, you don't miss the money you never had.

Imagine cutting a $25,000 cheque at tax time. Would you feel the same?

[geoffrey]

Just to add... check out page 7 and 9. It clearly shows what is referred to as the fiscal imbalance. That is... how much Ontario and Alberta get screwed.

[rogue state]

I heard in Somalia, they don't have taxes.

You only eat what you kill.

btw, the only things you're speaking about are taxes. your egotism make a cannibal blush.

[geoffrey]

btw, the only things you're speaking about are taxes. your egotism make a cannibal blush.

Eh?

I'm not saying we should have no government and no taxes, just that most Canadians would be better off dealing with things themselves... our government is wasteful and unproductive.

[Riverwind]

1) How does it feel to have nearly 1/2 your income go to government?

A pretty good deal considering the services I get in return for that.

Put it this way. A $50,000/yr income earner pays about $1,800 in payroll deducted tax, EI and CPP monthly.

Decent family health insurance plan in the US would cost at least $1000/month. Fire, police and a court system to handle law breakers don't come for free. Neither do schools and parks. $1800/month is a pretty good deal if you look at the big picture.

Bottom line... I don't feel like I receive value for the money I put into Canada.

Because you are young, childless and self centered. You don't really understand how much you depend on the civil society around you. If you want the benefits of living in a civil society you should be prepared to pay the cost.

That argument is not a blanket defense of any government program and many programs probably deserve to be axed. However, I don't believe you could get the civil society you expect for much less than what you pay now.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Decent family health insurance plan in the US would cost at least $1000/month.

No, it wouldn't cost you $1,000 per month in the USA for employer based health insurance benefits (group rates).

I pay $130 per month for family coverage, and that includes dental.

[Riverwind]

No, it wouldn't cost you $1,000 per month in the USA for employer based health insurance benefits (group rates).

I pay $130 per month for family coverage, and that includes dental.

You still pay for it via lower salaries or higher prices for goods and services. Healthcare is a necessity in a modern economy and its costs cannot be avoided. The only different is the US provides this service by 'taxing' corporations. In Canada the individual pays.

[bush_cheney2004]

You still pay for it via lower salaries or higher prices for goods and services. Healthcare is a necessity in a modern economy and its costs cannot be avoided. The only different is the US provides this service by 'taxing' corporations. In Canada the individual pays.

I don't follow your logic....a single employee often pays nothing for the insurance. Canadians flock to the USA for higher salaries and lower taxes. There is a tipping point when middle-wage Canadians really start to get screwed.

[margrace]

...Decent family health insurance plan in the US would cost at least $1000/month.

No, it wouldn't cost you $1,000 per month in the USA for employer based health insurance benefits (group rates).

I pay $130 per month for family coverage, and that includes dental.

Yes and I have some ocean front property for sale in Saskatchewan. I have heard some of the figures out of the US. My sister has a friend there whose mother was under 65 and had to pay over $650 a month for insurance. Tell us another one.

[margrace]

You still pay for it via lower salaries or higher prices for goods and services. Healthcare is a necessity in a modern economy and its costs cannot be avoided. The only different is the US provides this service by 'taxing' corporations. In Canada the individual pays.

I don't follow your logic....a single employee often pays nothing for the insurance. Canadians flock to the USA for higher salaries and lower taxes. There is a tipping point when middle-wage Canadians really start to get screwed.

Yes and when they get into trouble health wise they come streaming home to Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes and I have some ocean front property for sale in Saskatchewan. I have heard some of the figures out of the US. My sister has a friend there whose mother was under 65 and had to pay over $650 a month for insurance. Tell us another one.

Sorry, one size does not fit all, but either way, it's not $1,000 per month unless you have expensive pre-existing conditions and a private policy. Here are the "facts" for 2004:

http://tinyurl.com/3bwv8l

Don't try to justify your tax burden with false information about a different nation.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes and when they get into trouble health wise they come streaming home to Canada.

Some do, but more come from Canada to the United States to avoid dying in the waiting lines. We can stay on topic...or just trade insults.

[gc1765]

Bottom line... I don't feel like I receive value for the money I put into Canada.

You've had 20-some odd years of free health care, free education, free protection under the law, free use of roads, parks, and many other services...and you've only been paying taxes for two years at $1800 per month...so, let's see, that's about $2000 per year that have received all that free stuff. I think you'll have a right to complain in another 20 years or so

[Riverwind]

I don't follow your logic....a single employee often pays nothing for the insurance. Canadians flock to the USA for higher salaries and lower taxes. There is a tipping point when middle-wage Canadians really start to get screwed.

Canadians do not go to the US for lower taxes. Everyone I know realizes they are paying the same once they include the cost of heath insurance and school fees. The attraction of the US was always the higher pre-tax salaries and the greater opportunities for people in specialized fields. The salary differential has largely disappeared with the high Canadian dollar.

The Fraiser institute report is deceptive because it uses all taxes to determine when it's 'tax freedom day' occurs. Very few people pay anywhere close to 50% of their income in prersonal taxes. A single person making 50K/year in BC with no deductions would pay no more than 30% for Income Tax, CPP, EI, GST and PST. This would put their tax freedom day at April 19th - not June 18.

That is why it is meaningless to talk about the direct cost to an individual when you compare the US healthcare system to the Canadian system. Employers may pay the cost but it is the individual who pays in the end. That is the logic the Fraiser Instutute uses when it includes Corporate Taxes in its Tax Freedom Day calculations and that logic applies equally to the cost of supplying employees with healthcare benefits.

[bush_cheney2004]

That is why it is meaningless to talk about the direct cost to an individual when you compare the US healthcare system to the Canadian system. Employers may pay the cost but it is the individual who pays in the end. That is the logic the Fraiser Instutute uses when it includes Corporate Taxes in its Tax Freedom Day calculations and that logic applies equally to the cost of supplying employees with healthcare benefits.

Sorry, but it was a comparison you invoked. I don't think any comparison can be made to the US (more health care services, more capacity, etc.)...pick another nation with a similar single payer system. I work with six Canadians Monday through Friday, and they do not miss their former (higher) tax burden, and they cherish their green cards because it provides access to more income and opportunity.

[Riverwind]

Sorry, but it was a comparison you invoked. I don't think any comparison can be made to the US...pick another nation with a similar single payer system.

The comparison is completely valid - you are paying for the cost of healthcare in the US whether you want to admit it or not. Denying that reality serves no purpose.

[bush_cheney2004]

The comparison is completely valid - you are paying for the cost of healthcare in the US whether you want to admit it or not. Denying that reality serves no purpose.

Please explain how I am paying this additional cost. You inflated the family premium costs to $1,000 per month for dramatic effect, and that was proven to be false as a US national average.

I have no idea what the CHA costs Canadians, and I'm sure not going to make things up.

[August1991]

1) How does it feel to have nearly 1/2 your income go to government?

Think of a day at work, all morning you work for others, and the afternoon is for yourself. Wow.

What you and the Fraser Institute report fail to note is that half of that money just gets returned back to Canadians in the form of transfers.

Canadians pay taxes, EI and CPP contributions and Canadians receive $100 child bonuses, unemployment cheques and pension payments. These transfers to people amount to half of all government spending.

Now, I'll grant you that the people paying into these schemes are often not the same people drawing from them. For example, if you're a smoker, you'll probably pay CPP all your life and then die a year or two short of 65 - and never draw a cent from your pension. You'd be like the legions who pay into EI and will never be unemployed.

As to the 25% we give to government for it to buy stuff on our behalf, Montreal's roads are really crappy but there was a cool fireworks show tonight.

-----

As I have argued on many occasions, we should not look at taxes. We should look at what governments do with our money. That's the real story.

Politicians don't impose taxes or borrow for the fun of it. They do it to finance their spending.

[Riverwind]

Please explain how I am paying this additional cost. You inflated the family premium costs to $1,000 per month for dramatic effect, and that was proven to be false as a US national average.

It is not an inflated figure at all. That is what any self-employeed person will have to pay in the US. However, many americans do not pay that cost directly since their employer pays on their behalf. As a result, their salaries are lower than they would be otherwise and the prices they pay for services is higher. Are you trying to argue that the magical health care fairy gives americans healthcare and they don't have to pay for it?

[geoffrey]

I think you'll have a right to complain in another 20 years or so

Why wait? I'd rather stand up for taxpayers now before I get screwed. I've got your back.

What you and the Fraser Institute report fail to note is that half of that money just gets returned back to Canadians in the form of transfers.

Actually I do note that, and that's the problem. I don't get anything. The government takes the average guy's income and gives it to politically attractive people (minorities for culture, parents for kids, kids for school).

Canadians pay taxes, EI and CPP contributions and Canadians receive $100 child bonuses, unemployment cheques and pension payments. These transfers to people amount to half of all government spending.

Half might be conservative. It's ugly.

As I have argued on many occasions, we should not look at taxes. We should look at what governments do with our money. That's the real story.

Essientially your right. But all we have little control over backroom decisions about where our money goes. We do have some control over taxes. The other thing is that I can't relate to a politican spending $5 billion, it's meaningless. But when I can equate a program costing me 20 hours of work, it becomes a whole lot easier to put it in perspective.

Politicians don't impose taxes or borrow for the fun of it. They do it to finance their spending.

I agree that it's the intention of politicans to do that. Unfortunately with the way budgetting is done in Canada (very deficit adverse population), politicans end up spending their financing rather than the other way around.

--

And an important note to those health care costs more in the States people... do you not realise the out of pocket cost of health care in Canada too?! Alberta costs $80 something a month for a family just in government premiums, tack on your secondary coverage (drugs, ambulance, ect) and your easily over $400 out of pocket for a family... EASY. So really, where the hell do we save?

[bush_cheney2004]

Please explain how I am paying this additional cost. You inflated the family premium costs to $1,000 per month for dramatic effect, and that was proven to be false as a US national average.

It is not an inflated figure at all. That is what any self-employeed person will have to pay in the US. However, many americans do pay that cost directly since their employer pays on their benefit. As a result, their salaries are lower than they would be otherwise and the prices they pay for services is higher. Are you trying to argue that the magical health care fairy gives americans healthcare and they don't have to pay for it?

Nonsense...it is not what "any" self employed person would pay. There is a large variation in policy premiums and benefits, and the majority of Americans are insured by employer based (group rate) plans. My salary would not change if I declined health insurance except for my portion of the premium.

The only health care services my family uses are preventive care at 100% less a small deductible, and that's mostly dental. God knows what Canadians do for dental!

If you're going to invoke US health care costs to justify your domestic tax burden, try to match apples to apples.

[August1991]

The Fraiser institute report is deceptive because it uses all taxes to determine when it's 'tax freedom day' occurs. Very few people pay anywhere close to 50% of their income in prersonal taxes. A single person making 50K/year in BC with no deductions would pay no more than 30% for Income Tax, CPP, EI, GST and PST. This would put their tax freedom day at April 19th - not June 18.

I agree and disagree, Riverwind.

The question is: what constitutes a tax? If I put money in a parking meter, is that a tax or a fee? If I pay to stay at a public campground, is that a tax? If I pay my Hydro-Quebec bill, is that a tax? Your point about health insurance premiums raises the same issue. Are they a tax or a fee?

In part this explains why the idea of a "government deficit" or even a "government budget" is essentially meaningless.

In Ontario and Alberta, they impose a "tax" and call it a "health insurance premium". You Riverwind then come along and claim that private US health premiums should be treated as a tax. Are they?

Underneath it all, there is a key idea. Governments are in a monopoly position and they can set their fees/taxes/premiums at whatever level they want. And if governments need extra cash, they can borrow at any time in your name.

This confusion means that I generally ignore talk of a "Tax Freedom Day". And I always ignore a politician's claim to a government budget surplus. But I look carefully at what the politician buys. Are they spending money the way I would?

[Riverwind]

Nonsense...it is not what "any" self employed person would pay.

That is what you have to pay to get something that comes close to what Canadians get for free.

My salary would not change if I declined health insurance except for my portion of the premium.

You do not get a discount from the price if you pay cash instead of credit even though paying by credit costs the merchant more. You can bet that the cost of accepting credit cards is factored into the price you pay. Your pay is less because your employer has to pay for a benefit plan.

I don't understand why you having so much trouble grasping the concept that healthcare costs money and that it is the individuals who always pay in the end.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't understand why you having so much trouble grasping the concept that healthcare costs money and that it is the individuals who always pay in the end.

Because what you are saying is not true. Many individuals, particularly the young, have very little in the way of health care expenses. Many employers pay the single premium at 100%, because the actuary tables say it is a no brainer. The biggest single payer of health care costs is state/federal government, with a much larger tax base compared to Canada, so my cost as an individual is lower (taxes).

Hell, we blow $10,000 on boob jobs and tummy tucks without any health insurance. It is not a TAX.

[Riverwind]

In Ontario and Alberta, they impose a "tax" and call it a "health insurance premium". You Riverwind then come along and claim that private US health premiums should be treated as a tax. Are they?

I included BC MSP fee in my calculation. If you want to compare Canadian taxes to US taxes then you must compare apples to apples. That means the cost that Americans pay for healthcare must be added to the tax calculation.

You could look at it another way. We could eliminate medicare and cut taxes by 20% and that would dramatically affect the tax freedom day. However, do you really believe that people would have more money in their pocket? Most people would find that every cent of that tax brake is spent purchasing medical insurance.